Tactics moves effectiveness

[Junts]

I know this, but even his stunning blow seemed to land more reliably than an FOD or FTS (note I said stunning blow, not fist, he's not a monk).

It might have just been my imagination.

The best way to use stunning blow involves a weighted 5% warhammer in the offhand.

[Kistilan]

I know this, but even his stunning blow seemed to land more reliably than an FOD or FTS (note I said stunning blow, not fist, he's not a monk).

It might have just been my imagination.

Unfettered utilizes these and Kilimanjaro (although I stopped levelling him til fighter PrEs got fleshed out).

The Stunning Blow works well in my use at end-game (but I'm a raging barb). I also have Improved Trip, Improved Sunder, Sap, Precision, etc to make these hits work and then unleash hell on things. I actually haven't messed around with Sap, but if you say it's a good deal that may be my next buy. Anyway, with a high strength + warforged tactic training + improved feats & the right equipment (I don't even use weighted yet on him, but will soon) I'd say they're all good ideas.

I'm the reverse of power-attack playing. I prefer stopping damage & attacking, so sunder (to help the lower to-hits), trip (to help immobilize, stop attacks & gain bonus to hits), destruct (weapons), stunning blow (assuming sap too), and precision (for effect proxy) are my main players. My fighters are typically mobility-spec'd to gain a +0 to hit while trailing the mobs -4 to-hit (me) & tumble-viable (additional ac when retreating & not swinging). If you're going to sit there swinging, some of these feats won't do you as well as an enhanced beat-down specialty. Tactics vs Power. However, as many know, twitch movement & jumping seem to be the key to succeeding these days so movement is going to happen either way (just pause to swing to mitigate the -4 penalty).

I'm not sure if you wanted a recommendation, but I've been with some of your guildies on raid runs & landed stunning blows, trips, etc with Unfettered no problem. I can't say anything bad about stunning blow as long as you can increase the DC check via items & enhancements (and of course have a decent strength as previously posted by others).

-Kist

PS: Thet utilizes a +10 vertigo trip LS & when he lands those (his splash fighter tactics help & 28 Strength), they pretty much stay on the ground for awhile (or permenantly).

PPS: Are you on Cannith yet? It's the trendy thing to do -- I unlocked drow & am rebuilding a new version of Thet. If you're bored I know my guys & also Gum are there. I'm sure plenty of people on Cannith would worship your citadel if you parked it over the habor for awhile.

[captain1z]

[QUOTE=Jay203;2446677] con damage on a blunt weapon specialist
QUOTE]


Now there is a thought .

I just started a 5th level bludgeon spec'ed fighter/future defender. Im not sure I could fit the feat in but its a thought.

[Kistilan]

The best way to use stunning blow involves a weighted 5% warhammer in the offhand.

Definitely going to have to try this -- especially since transmuting got a little stunning blow done to it (new weapon sets, ho!!)

Does the str multipler 1.5 apply to tactical DC checks as per 3.5 strength bonus when wielding 2-handed weapons? I can't recall if it does -- and this may just be a raging barb thing I'm paraphrasing too. My books are still packed in one of the boxes I've yet to unpack so referencing isn't possible atm for myself.

[Junts]

Definitely going to have to try this -- especially since transmuting got a little stunning blow done to it (new weapon sets, ho!!)

Does the str multipler 1.5 apply to tactical DC checks as per 3.5 strength bonus when wielding 2-handed weapons? I can't recall if it does -- and this may just be a raging barb thing I'm paraphrasing too. My books are still packed in one of the boxes I've yet to unpack so referencing isn't possible atm for myself.

Nope

You want an outstanding tactics build, you make a kensai (they get bonuses from the prc as well as fighter tactics, plus power surge), and swpa to weapon sets with a good weighted 5 offhander to use sb .. and the 3x crit makes a good bursting weighted wh a worthwhile offhander to pound your stunned friend with.

[Kistilan]

Nope

You want an outstanding tactics build, you make a kensai (they get bonuses from the prc as well as fighter tactics, plus power surge), and swpa to weapon sets with a good weighted 5 offhander to use sb .. and the 3x crit makes a good bursting weighted wh a worthwhile offhander to pound your stunned friend with.

That's too bad the multiplier doesn't apply to DCs.

Yeah Kilimanjaro is my pure tactics guy & was going Kenasi for that reason -- although warforged tactics would be nice to enhance this build (he's human, not wf'd).

So I'm imagining the perfect tactician these days is a Warforged Kensai level 20 with all tactic enhancements, yes?

[transtemporal]

I know this, but even his stunning blow seemed to land more reliably than an FOD or FTS (note I said stunning blow, not fist, he's not a monk).

It might have just been my imagination.

The shavarath effect is giving +4 to saves, so it should be harder to land stunning blow but trip should be slightly better as its a str/dex check. Having said that, I find my wf kensei II with 30str, no wf tactics, vertigo 10 and weighted 5% has had some success with improved trip and stunning blow on shavarath. I haven't run it enough with heavyweight tanks to be able to run round tripping and stunning full time but, these are some rough estimates so far.
tieflings/trogs - trip 3/5 stun 1/2
trolls - trip 2/5 stun 1/5 (probably less than that)
bezekira/hounds - trip 0/5, stun 1/2 (its probably higher than that, so far I'm 4/4 against the named bezekira)
orthons/bearded devils - it seems very low, maybe 1/10, but its hard to tell because they're moving around so much.

I will say one thing - despite the overall low success, it actually feels easier to land stunning blow/improved trip than it does to land spells on my dc33 sorc. Against anything but the tieflings and trogs, it requires 1-3 energy drains before it lands. I wonder whether its the SR thats making it seem much harder than it is?

[krud]

The best way to use stunning blow involves a weighted 5% warhammer in the offhand.

I use the often-thrown-in-the trash Tenderizer out of the reaver. +5 impact weighted 5% morninstar to good use on my ftr/rog/pal. His DC is a 33. Trip and stun were very effective in the vale. In shavarath they've lost some effectiveness. Stun still lands on casters almost all the time, trash melee mobs about 50% of the time, and high fort mobs are probably 25%. I don't have any trip enhancements, or imp trip feat yet it seems to land even more than stun, even without a vertigo weapon.

The thing that makes Stunning Blow so awful is the way mobs still slide around after being stunned. I can't count how many times I've stunned a mob, yet failed to land a single attack in the time it takes for them to recover, because they moved all over the place.

[Jay203]

So I'm imagining the perfect tactician these days is a Warforged Kensai level 20 with all tactic enhancements, yes?

nope, not a PURE fighter =)
gotta splash either barbarian or other stuff for more bonus =)

[transtemporal]

New data on my earlier post...

I was intrigued so I did some testing last night running around the iron maw/hellhound/third hall/spine areas (not the quests just the wilderness areas around the quests) with my wf ftr and a caster friend and got very different results.

My WF is kensei III, 32 or 40 str (depending on whether power surge is running), no wf tactics, no power attack on (to lessen false positives from missing attacks). Stunning blow but no improved trip (whoops, thats my other ftr). +1 cursespewing vertigo 10 longsword (rr wf) in mainhand and +4 weighted 5% club in offhand. Last time I was running with shield/longsword, shield/club separately.

Trip = d20 +10 str +10 vertigo +3 kensei vs d20 +str or dex +size/stability i.e. "number of legs" bonus (is this correct you ftr experts?)
Stun DC = 10 base +10 str +10 weighted +3 kensei = 33 vs fort save (is this correct you ftr experts?)

I was the only melee so I didn't get results from other melees and the mobs didn't die too fast. My approach was basically hard target mob, trip, then stun. For attacks that hit, I made a mark on a sheet of paper and if it landed, I crossed it out. Different sheets of paper for each type of attack. Not the most scientific I know, lol.

Basically for trip, of the 60+ trip attacks I made, only 2 failed to land! The two that failed were against a hellhound and a tiefling lieutenant. Otherwise, it didn't seem to matter what mob it was, they got tripped big time. I was stoked with this result because last time it seemed wildly variable and not worth the effort as they went down so fast from dps. Maybe I thought I was armed with the vertigo 10 but was actually using my +2 vorpal vertigo 2 longsword or something. In any case, under controlled conditions, this tactic performed much better.

Stunning blow... not so successful. Of the 50ish attacks I made, about 15 landed. I expected them not to land on the orthons for some reason but it was actually a fairly even spread - couple of orthons and bearded devils, a hellhound, a couple of trolls, a bezekira, a tiefling/trog or two. Not enough to be able to draw a conclusion from the sample. I noticed that when I made my stun attack, it was actually my mainhand that swung, not my offhand. Does the offhand weighted bonus apply to the mainhand too? I assumed it did but if it doesn't, I might have to test it out with club/shield. Overall, I wouldn't say stun was hugely successful tactic on shavarath for a dc of 33. Suggested to me that in order for it to be really viable, the dc would have to be 40+.

So basically the conclusion I drew was trip (at 33ish DC) = very successful in shavarath, stun (at 33 DC) = not so much, but still higher than my caster. Ha.

I'm gonna go back tonight and do a bit more on shavarath, just with stunning blow. And go to the vale and try both there for reference. I have a feeling that'll be near 100% for both tactics (except against spiders )