Need help with a Ranger/Monk/Pal Build

[Gamesguy]

I thinking something along the lines of 12pal/6ranger/2 monk. Hunter of the dead/tempest.

The goal is to have decent dps, very high saves, and decent to high AC, with some wands it should be a very good soloer.

On a 28 pt build and minimal tome usage, what kind of starting stat should I be using/what stat should I pump? I was thinking elf with scimmy or longsword. Alternatively, would a drow with rapiers work better? What are the gameplay difference between piercing and slash towards the mid/end game?

Thanks in advance.

[Thanimal]

I drew something up like this a while back. I'm pretty sure Halfling is your best choice for it (even if 28 points). Better AC, better saves, better DPS (at least any time you have SA status).

My intent was DoS/Tempest, but it didn't work out. I was disappointed that the build couldn't hold hate aggro (not enough DPS x Hate, at least on paper), which prevented it from really "working" in a party: can't hold aggro so defenses are inactive, and DPS is only "OK". I think Paladin 18/Monk 2 works better to get the full +200% hate, and in the end the DPS is similar.

However, 12/6/2 might be a sweet solo build or for short-manning in general, where general survivability is a huge asset.

Stats are likely pretty level. Can't really dump anything, nor does any one stat define the build. STR for damage, DEX/WIS for AC (and more), CHA for Paladin stuff, INT for CE, and CON for HP. I recommend a Finesse direction, especially if you don't have 32 points, because you simply won't be able to put a lot of points into STR *and* DEX.

Rough 28-point starting point might be:

STR 12 [6 points] (+1 Tome to qualify for PA)
DEX 16 [6 points] level bumps here
CON 12 [4 points]
INT 12 [4 points] (+1 Tome to qualify for CE)
CHA 12 [4 points]
WIS 12 [4 points]

Huh -- doesn't get much more level than that! I doubt that's optimal, but I think it's in the ballpark.

[Gamesguy]

Would something like this work?

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

drow pal 
Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(12 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 6 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 286
Spell Points: 232 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 21
Will: 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    22
Dexterity            16                    21
Constitution         10                    10
Intelligence         12                    13
Wisdom               13                    14
Charisma             11                    14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 13
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    25
Bluff                 0                     2
Concentration         0                     0
Diplomacy             0                     2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     4
Heal                  1                     2
Hide                  7                     9
Intimidate            0                     2
Jump                  7                    26.5
Listen                1                     4
Move Silently         7                     9
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     1
Search                5                     7
Spot                  5                    17
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                n/a                   5.5
Use Magic Device      2                    13.5

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I


Level 8 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning I


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead I


Level 10 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I


Level 11 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 13 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II


Level 14 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III


Level 16 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning II


Level 17 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV


Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Remove Disease I


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma III

Quick question, do enhancement bonuses to attribute count towards pre-reqs(I'm looking at GTWF) or no? The character builder doesnt seem to think so.

Final stats:
28 STR / +2(ram)
27 DEX <- not sure how to even this without +2 tome. Need 16 base with +1 tome for GTWF.
16 CON
12 INT
20 WIS
20 CHA

AC:
+10 Base
+7 Dexterity
+8 DT Leather
+5 Wisdom
+1 Monk
+1 Dodge
+1 Alchemical
+2 Chaosgard
+4 Aura
+3 Barkskin pot
+4 Shield Wand
+5 Protection Cloak
+5 Combat Expertise
=51, 56 with CE

With some farming:
+3 Dodge, Chattering Ring
+4 Insight
=58/63
Icy Raiments would be ideal but I'm not sure where those drop.

+Misc Party Buffs.


Dual wielding rapiers.

What do you guys think? Would it be better to just forget about strength and go straight dex and pick up weapon finesse?

[Thanimal]

Quick question, do enhancement bonuses to attribute count towards pre-reqs(I'm looking at GTWF) or no? The character builder doesnt seem to think so.

They do not; builder is correct. Tomes and level-ups count, and nothing else does (that I can remember anyhow).

AC is good, but could be better if you want to go Finesse direction (even better if go Halfling). Counting Shield Wand may be unrealistic, unless you invest very heavily in UMD (including equipment, CHA points, and 2 skill points per level). Keep in mind activating a Shield turns off CE, so in any battle longer than 1 minute you'll ideally want to use a Wand of Shield(10th) beforehand, and so need a total UMD around 30 to have a reasonable chance at activation.

What do you guys think? Would it be better to just forget about strength and go straight dex and pick up weapon finesse?

Personally, yes. I'm scared of your 10 CON, especially since you have no CON enh, limited Toughness enh available, and only "decent" base HP. So I'd prefer to give up some DPS (and get it back by being a Halfling ) to improve the hit point situation, and the Finesse route offers true tank AC (especially as a Halfling ). Keep enough STR for Power Attack, though, if you can possibly fit that. That's a huge value add for versatility.

Perhaps more importantly, CHA investment will often mean MORE DPS than STR investment here, due to prereqs for some Paladin DPS enhancements. And CHA has other benefits. Indeed, the one reason I'd seriously consider Drow here is to get a really good CHA -- doubt I'd be happy with less than 16 if going Drow. My off-the-cuff cut at a Drow:

STR 12 [4] (+1 Tome for PA)
DEX 16 [6] (all level ups here; so technically don't require a +1 Tome)
CHA 16 [6] (+2 Tome in distant future to meet an 18 prereq on some higher level enhs)
INT 12 [2] (+1 Tome for CE; can't think of skills you really need here except UMD)
CON 12 [6] (still a little scary, but hopefully now enough AC to rarely take any hits)
WIS 12 [4]

Hope this helps more than it confuses!

[Therigar]

Your basic build idea is one that was popular for a time across all the servers. The notion of combining the monk WIS boost with the paladin's aura enhancements and the rangers DEX enhancements to reach a fairly high AC had a lot of supporters.

A bonus of the monk/paladin/ranger multiclass was that monk and paladin also offered improved saving throws. Taking a deep paladin multiclass even provided immunities to several nasty effects. These various benefits made the combination popular for some time.

It eventually died out because higher AC could be reached by a different class mix. It may come back with the increased number of players brought in by free-to-play -- especially because many of them are focused on soloing content rather than on forming/joining guilds and static groups.

IMO it is important to consider what end-game items you will have and if it is worth the effort to farm for them. I also would caution regarding combat expertise. I was a very big fan of this feat for a long time. However, it does not work in conjunction with power attack -- which is considered very valuable for end-game content. I would also caution regarding AC.

In most situations a +1 or +2 difference is not so critical that you absolutely need to have the higher number. This applies to nearly every aspect of the game. The exception is end-game dungeons on elite. In that situation every + counts.

I also used to favor the high DEX builds using weapon finesse and allowing STR to remain relatively low. However, DEX and weapon finesse only help a character to hit -- they don't help with damage. Because at end-game characters seldom have trouble hitting things it is more important to have higher damage modifiers. So, even when working on a DEX & WIS AC build I currently favor putting stat increases as you gain levels into STR.

Lastly, before suggesting a stat layout to you, I would caution against too low of a CON score. Even with a high AC you will be hit sometimes. You need to have enough HP to survive those hits. Nothing is worse than failing 2 saves in a row in Shroud and seeing your HP drop 300 points almost instantaneously. For a front-line combat character you need to have >350 hp IMO.

Ok, let's look at your stats. Your latest post listed this: STR 16 DEX 16 CON 10 INT 12 WIS 13 CHA 11. We should look to see what those numbers give you at end game.

If we decide that we will always have a +6 stat item and consume a +3 tome on every stat then we have +9 across the board. New stats become: STR 25 DEX 25 CON 19 INT 21 WIS 22 CHA 20.

If we factor in ranger and drow DEX enhancements, monk WIS enhancements and paladin CHA enhancements the numbers become: STR 25 DEX 30 CON 19 INT 21 WIS 23 CHA 22.

If we go with stat increases as you level up into DEX you'll end up with a 35 DEX. If we go with them in STR you'll end up with a 30 STR.

So, let's look at these ending numbers.

STR 25 (30) -- It is stupid to end on an odd number. It does not do anything good for the character. Everything in DDO is based on even stat numbers. So, starting with STR 16 is only worth while if you put your level increases into STR.

DEX 30 (35) -- See the comments about STR. You get a +2 modifier to AC with the higher DEX. But, it makes no sense to start with DEX 16 unless you end with the DEX 30.

CON 19 -- This is just horrid. May as well start with 9 CON. But, smarter would be to start with more CON.

INT 21 -- Again, horrid. Here is a situation where you really don't need the stat item because it does not affect anything at all for you. You really only need the raw INT score to qualify for combat expertise (which I've already discussed) and for skill points. Starting with 12 INT makes no sense.

WIS 23 -- See everything already said about odd stats.

CHA 22 -- The only ending stat that makes sense with your current distribution. Of course, if you put level stat increases into STR then DEX and STR are also good.

So, how do we fix this? Consider these starting stats instead: STR 14 DEX 14 CON 13 INT 11 WIS 14 CHA 13. With items, tomes, enhancments and stat increases these become: STR 28 DEX 28 CON 22 INT 14 WIS 24 CHA 24. I've put stat increases into STR and did not include a stat item for INT because it really does not matter.

You can see that with equal STR and DEX there is no need for weapon finesse. The lower DEX does not affect AC because the WIS is higher. The lower STR means -1 to hit and damage. This is not a character breaker and it is higher than you had planned for -- making it an improvement over your plan in any case.

I would suggest saving a feat from weapon finesse and from combat expertise. Instead take two weapon defense and weapon focus: piercing.

Of course, the final choices are up to you.

[Thanimal]

I would not obsess about potentially odd stats. +4 Tomes exist now, and who know if you'll find them (or even +3s). Exceptional bonuses now exist up to +3 and who knows if more are coming.

It's worth thinking about a *little*, but I'd advise mainly to just spend your points efficiently, and then make your equipment and Tomes match to your stats.

[Gamesguy]

Thanks for all the help, I think I'm going to go with something similar to what Thanimal proposed. Pumping both str/dex just takes too much tome usage.

As a side note, is the drow SR enhancement route worth going at all? And what should I pick for favored enemy, I'm going with undead and evil outsider for now but I've never experienced end game content so I don't know what types of NPCs are most common.

Also, should I bother with shortswords at all? Are there going to be enemies that need the slashing over piercing dmg?

[Thanimal]

Thanks for all the help, I think I'm going to go with something similar to what Thanimal proposed. Pumping both str/dex just takes too much tome usage.

As a side note, is the drow SR enhancement route worth going at all? And what should I pick for favored enemy, I'm going with undead and evil outsider for now but I've never experienced end game content so I don't know what types of NPCs are most common.

SR is awesome for soloing, but eventually useless in a party b/c Clerics can give you far better SR at high levels. FE of Undead and EO sounds good. Possibly swap in Constructs instead of Undead if you end up facing Portals a lot (for some reason...) for a while.