The Air Elemental Petition

[Velexia]

Level 16 Cleric, trapped between three Sand Mephits with an Air Elemental.



Unable to get free of this, I was only able to 'attempt' to cast healing spells on myself and destruction spells on the Air Elemental.

I believe, with all about 1000 mana, I was able to land two destruction spells (both were saved against), the remainder of the attempts failed because A: I was knocked down (95% of the time) or B: The Air Elemental was behind me (kind of hard to tell...)

The mephits were chumps, surrounding me or not, I could have taken them without a hitch... but with the Air Elemental...



So what did I do...?

I hit escape, and quit. The game more than likely left me there long enough for them to finish me off (not like there would have been any other outcome had I stayed, I just didn't feel like suffering the indignity).

This is a petition to change the Air Elemental.

Something must be done with the Knockdown effect.

Some suggestions have been....

-Give the character immunity to the effect after a successful save for a reasonable amount of time.
-Limit the frequency in which the knockdown effect occurs (currently it happens about 10-20 times per second?)
-Remove the knockdown effect altogether, and have only the knockback effect.

Feel free to sign below and/or add your own suggestions for changes, and post your experiences and screenshots.

[Visty]

destruct a mephit
get knocked away cause now you can
run away
destruct it from distance
or set up a bb

[Angelus_dead]

destruct a mephit

How's he supposed to do that? Destruct requires casting a spell, and a spell is an action, and he can't do any actions unless the elemental decides to let him.

Anyway, it's very ironic that a cleric is complaining about this, because 99.8% of the time Clerics bring down an Air Elemental like that with hardly needing to think about it, while Fighters Barbarians Rogues Monks and Paladins need an epic effort to take out even the weakest ones.

[Visty]

How's he supposed to do that?

Destruct requires casting a spell, and a spell is an action, and he can't do any actions unless the elemental decides to let him.

well, he said he could cast it 2 times on the elly

and i believe mephs have a lower fort

so instead of wasting it on the ellys, use it to break the barrier around you

[Velexia]

destruct a mephit
get knocked away cause now you can
run away
destruct it from distance
or set up a bb

A typical non-constructive post from you, Visty. No wonder I had you ignored. The destruction was as likely to be cast while knocked down against the Air Elemental as the Mephit... and unless Air Elementals have much higher Fortitude saves that the Mephits... no difference in outcome. As for blade barriers and destructing it from a distance, that is exactly what I do in this area. Back to ignore, Visty.

[bobbryan2]

well, he said he could cast it 2 times on the elly

and i believe mephs have a lower fort

so instead of wasting it on the ellys, use it to break the barrier around you

I don't think the point of this thread was to give advice on how to best get around a broken mechanic...

I may be wrong, but I'm thinking it flew right past ya.

[Velexia]

How's he supposed to do that? Destruct requires casting a spell, and a spell is an action, and he can't do any actions unless the elemental decides to let him.

Anyway, it's very ironic that a cleric is complaining about this, because 99.8% of the time Clerics bring down an Air Elemental like that with hardly needing to think about it, while Fighters Barbarians Rogues Monks and Paladins need an epic effort to take out even the weakest ones.

yeah, if it weren't for those Mephits holding me in while the Air Elemental punched me in the gut over and over again, EVENTUALLY... the Air Elemental would have knocked me far enough away that I could destruct it or get it with blade barriers...

That of course, doesn't change the fact that this is ridiculous, and needs to be fixed.

[mediocresurgeon]

It might just be me... but it seemed like the Air Elementals were toned down a bit from Mod 8 to Mod 9.

I say, fix the mechanical problem with an item! Give us:

Knockdown Immunity Boots

I will be the first to sign.

/signed

[Visty]

I don't think the point of this thread was to give advice on how to best get around a broken mechanic...

I may be wrong, but I'm thinking it flew right past ya.

well, its nothing new that they are broken and what is wrong about giving suggestions how he could get around it?

and vel, you dont ignore me cause my posts are non constutructive but only cause you couldnt see the truth (that is ofc if you are the one i think you are)

[Sohryu]

I don't think the point of this thread was to give advice on how to best get around a broken mechanic...

I may be wrong, but I'm thinking it flew right past ya.

Should air elles get changed a little? Probably. They can be pretty annoying.

However, a 16th level cleric in a lvl 12 area should have no problems Destructing an air elemental long before it gets in range to knock them down, or casting a Blade Barrier a distance away and luring them into it, that way while they are being smacked around like a pinball at least they could be doing some damage to the elle. Not to mention other ranged spells like Cometfall (which I don't even see on the OP's hotbar, tsk tsk) or Harm.

[bobbryan2]

Should air elles get changed a little? Probably. They can be pretty annoying.

However, a 16th level cleric in a lvl 12 area should have no problems Destructing an air elemental long before it gets in range to knock them down, or casting a Blade Barrier a distance away and luring them into it, that way while they are being smacked around like a pinball at least they could be doing some damage to the elle. Not to mention other ranged spells like Cometfall (which I don't even see on the OP's hotbar, tsk tsk) or Harm.

Your first line says it all.

Air eles should be changed. Further discussion is really irrelevent. Yes... there are ways around them. OBVIOUSLY there are ways around them... there are air eles in plenty of quests, and those quests get completed.

It doesn't mean they're working fine or are fun. I just don't know why people can't stick to the point of, "air eles are broken and unfun."

I guess maybe cuz otherwise a thread would just die out cuz everyone agrees.

[Hafeal]

It doesn't mean they're working fine or are fun. I just don't know why people can't stick to the point of, "air eles are broken and unfun."

I guess maybe cuz otherwise a thread would just die out cuz everyone agrees.

I am with you there.

[Angelus_dead]

I say, fix the mechanical problem with an item! Give us:
Knockdown Immunity Boots

That would not be a fix for the problem. Adding a specific item to block the broken mechanic doesn't mean it's not broken.

The problem, remember, is that Air Elementals present a threat that their CR completely fails to capture. The elemental in this picture is CR 11. Consider any raid where the boss summons monsters of higher than CR 11 and imagine how much harder it would get if they were replaced with Air Elementals...

[Sohryu]

Your first line says it all.

Air eles should be changed. Further discussion is really irrelevent. Yes... there are ways around them. OBVIOUSLY there are ways around them... there are air eles in plenty of quests, and those quests get completed.

It doesn't mean they're working fine or are fun. I just don't know why people can't stick to the point of, "air eles are broken and unfun."

I guess maybe cuz otherwise a thread would just die out cuz everyone agrees.

Perhaps if the OP had just said "air eles are broken and unfun" then more people would have agreed.

Naturally if someone divulges their strategy, people are going to try and help them correct that strategy if it's not working for them or if there is a better way.

[sirgog]

It might just be me... but it seemed like the Air Elementals were toned down a bit from Mod 8 to Mod 9.

They were definitely changed. But not enough. Not nearly enough.

[Kistilan]

I am with you there.

I'd be all for knock-down immunity 1 min with enhanced wind-buffing save (+x due to character's now pre-exposure to the attack) after the first knock-down. Most individuals can recover from that (and casters, especially if the cleric is watching for the initial knock-down).

PS: I know this isn't a "suggest work-arounds," but rather "suggest fixes." That said, I find it easiest to tackle the desert, etc by compartamentalizing my fights. I would lure the mephits away from the elementals, etc and engage separate or vice-versa. Taking the two groups on together is the reason they're in close proximity (from a dungeon designer's pov). I know there's other techniques, engaging synergistic foes seperately is a good tactic.

[QuantumFX]

The knockdown mechanic associated with air elementals has needed serious changes for a long time. Meleeing an air elemental has always been a poorly timed and unfunny joke.

A couple suggestions:
- Allow the whirlwind form to work like an efreeti. However make the whirlwind form come to an end.
- Something more along the lines of the judge and jailers knockback attacks.

[Velexia]

However, a 16th level cleric in a lvl 12 area should have no problems Destructing an air elemental long before it gets in range to knock them down, or casting a Blade Barrier a distance away and luring them into it, that way while they are being smacked around like a pinball at least they could be doing some damage to the elle. Not to mention other ranged spells like Cometfall (which I don't even see on the OP's hotbar, tsk tsk) or Harm.

Keyword there, should. Guess what, after logging in, I went in again, and killed all of the Air Elementals... and guess what, that did nothing to change the fact that they need to be fixed.

As for my hotbar? I play a cleric to heal. I put some attack spells on my hotbar so I could do a few loot runs. Sure, Cometfall and Harm are nice spells, but they require too much finagling with my standard memorized spells.

Naturally if someone divulges their strategy, people are going to try and help them correct that strategy if it's not working for them or if there is a better way.

I didn't really divulge any strategy at all... Unless you consider "while surrounded, and knocked down indefinitely, I attempted to cast a spell (note, most of the mana vanished with no spell going off)" a strategy. I certainly don't.


Back on topic now... please =)

[Hafeal]

I'd be all for knock-down immunity 1 min with enhanced wind-buffing save (+x due to character's now pre-exposure to the attack) after the first knock-down. Most individuals can recover from that (and casters, especially if the cleric is watching for the initial knock-down).

PS: I know this isn't a "suggest work-arounds," but rather "suggest fixes." That said, I find it easiest to tackle the desert, etc by compartamentalizing my fights. I would lure the mephits away from the elementals, etc and engage separate or vice-versa. Taking the two groups on together is the reason they're in close proximity (from a dungeon designer's pov). I know there's other techniques, engaging synergistic foes seperately is a good tactic.

Could work. I don't know the best fix, but I do know this is one creature where Turbine has not really followed the rulebook. It seems to me they took the easy way out on air elementals with a simple knockdown. (d20srd)

Whirlwind (Su)

The elemental can transform itself into a whirlwind once every 10 minutes and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD it has. In this form, the elemental can move through the air or along a surface at its fly speed.

The whirlwind is 5 feet wide at the base, up to 30 feet wide at the top, and up to 50 feet tall, depending on the elemental’s size. The elemental controls the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet.
The elemental’s movement while in whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the elemental enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if the elemental moves into or through the creature’s space.
Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the elemental might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (see table for details) and may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take the indicated damage. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful. The DC for saves against the whirlwind’s effects varies with the elemental’s size (see the table). The save DC is Strength based.
Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the elemental carries them or to escape the whirlwind.
Creatures caught in the whirlwind can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a -4 penalty to Dexterity and a -2 penalty on attack rolls. The elemental can have only as many creatures trapped inside the whirlwind at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume.
The elemental can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes, depositing them wherever the whirlwind happens to be. A summoned elemental always ejects trapped creatures before returning to its home plane.
If the whirlwind’s base touches the ground, it creates a swirling cloud of debris. This cloud is centered on the elemental and has a diameter equal to half the whirlwind’s height. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment, while those farther away have total concealment.
Those caught in the cloud must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell.
An elemental in whirlwind form cannot make slam attacks and does not threaten the area around it.

[Bunker]

Level 16 Cleric, trapped between three Sand Mephits with an Air Elemental.

Unable to get free of this, I was only able to 'attempt' to cast healing spells on myself and destruction spells on the Air Elemental.

I believe, with all about 1000 mana, I was able to land two destruction spells (both were saved against), the remainder of the attempts failed because A: I was knocked down (95% of the time) or B: The Air Elemental was behind me (kind of hard to tell...)

The mephits were chumps, surrounding me or not, I could have taken them without a hitch... but with the Air Elemental...

So what did I do...?

I hit escape, and quit. The game more than likely left me there long enough for them to finish me off (not like there would have been any other outcome had I stayed, I just didn't feel like suffering the indignity).

This is a petition to change the Air Elemental.

Something must be done with the Knockdown effect.

Some suggestions have been....

-Give the character immunity to the effect after a successful save for a reasonable amount of time.
-Limit the frequency in which the knockdown effect occurs (currently it happens about 10-20 times per second?)
-Remove the knockdown effect altogether, and have only the knockback effect.

Feel free to sign below and/or add your own suggestions for changes, and post your experiences and screenshots.

I found your pictures to be equally funny and sad. Funny that you were getting owned but sad that there was nothing you could do.

You are level 16 cleric, so this is not the first time you have been around an Air Elemental. Sure we all have a small or large distaste for them, but a cleric of your level shoudln't be in this situation to begin with.

I think the air elementals are fine as they are personally. Sure they are a pain, but if they aren't, which monster in teh game will take thier place. They are unique as well as annoying.