Still no 32 point build in the shop?

[Bosco]

if its so easy -as you say- why sell it in the first place?

To make money. Turbine is a corporation.

[Milolyen]

To make money. Turbine is a corporation.

Yup ... and selling adventure packs is part of that as well.

Milolyen

[Bosco]

Yup ... and selling adventure packs is part of that as well.

Milolyen

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Ephemeral]

and so by your logic there should be no reward at all at 1750 and 32 shouldnt not be sold cause +2 tomes arent sold either

do you understand logic at all?

my statement was that i consider the +2 tome to be an appropriate reward for getting 1750 favor on a character; +2 tomes are easily obtained once you have a level 14+ character, just as 1750 favor is easily obtained once you have a 14+ character.

your reply was that such a reward would be useless to a vet.

my reply back was that by the same token, 32pt builds as a reward are useless to a vet who already has them

so to summarise / reframe my position:

at 1750, the correct and appropriate reward is a +2 tome of your choice for the character that earned the favor. 32pt builds are not an appropriate reward, they may be kept as a first time 1750 favor reward, but should be sold in store to anyone who wants them and is willing to pay

[Lifespawn]

Those aren't good reasons in my opinion... I didn't see this many people "crying" about Drow being added and those guys can be worth upwards of 36+ point builds statistically.

Aesop

Originally Posted by Lifespawn
Because

1. It gives new people the chance to Pay for something the rest of us had to work for.


This excuse is really silly. Things change and progress. New things come out and old things become easier to obtain... that's not just the nature of the game its the nature of life.So they should just be able to have stuff because time has passed? free raid loot all around


2.It sets a precedence for them selling even more stuff in the store like raid loot.

Slippery Slope arguement again? I don't foresee Turbine doing the whole Raid Gear for 50 dollars thing... its counter productive Isn't the grind what makes the money last wouldn't taking out the favor grind be counter productive.

3.It takes away a goal.

Its not a goal to me. Its an annoying necessity for doing the aspect of the game I enjoy... building and playing characters. It's not a goal to you because you've been here and done it not so for new people.

4.It actually loses turbine money people that really really care about the 4 point difference are hard core gamers that HAVE to have those 4 points or feel gimped meaning they either have to pay for monthly subs till they get the 1750 or buy enough content to get 1750 worth of favor either way making more cash than just a 32 point buy unless it was a rediculous ammount.


Sounds a little straw like to me... anyone that is hard core is going to buy the Mods anyway and will probably get to 1750 relatively quickly... its the more casual players the ones that want to play the game and have fun that are more likely to buy 32 point builds. Casual players won't give a hoot about a 32 point buy it really makes very little difference to a build your own argument invalidates itself.
There you go 4 good reasons not to do it.

responses in green

[Visty]

do you understand logic at all?

jep, more then others most time (doesnt mean i mean you now)

at 1750, the correct and appropriate reward is a +2 tome of your choice for the character that earned the favor. 32pt builds are not an appropriate reward, they may be kept as a first time 1750 favor reward, but should be sold in store to anyone who wants them and is willing to pay

ok, lets turn it around:
at 1750, the correct and appropriate reward is to create a stronger char for the player which earned the favor. +2 tomes are not an appropriate reward, because they dont stack. favor rewards should be something unique and actually set a goal


all you saying is: i dont like it, change it
but you dont tell a logical reason at all

[Ephemeral]

ok, lets turn it around:
at 1750, the correct and appropriate reward is to create a stronger char for the player which earned the favor. +2 tomes are not an appropriate reward, because they dont stack. favor rewards should be something unique and actually set a goal


all you saying is: i dont like it, change it
but you dont tell a logical reason at all

Ok, now I think I understand. I consider the 1750 / 32pt build favor reward to be a bad design decision, because it strengthens new characters you build, not the first one who got the favor. Therefore, whilst I agree that earning favor should have rewards, I consider that these rewards should be in-game rewards for the character that earnt them. The +2 tome is such a reward, whereas the 32pt build reward does nothing for the character that earnt it.

Therefore, I see no problem selling 32pt builds in store.

If I had my way, I would redesign the favor rewards and make them available at 1000, 2000, and 3000 points respectively (I recall reading that you can get just over 3000 favor as of mod 9, so that would be a true achievement at the present time). I would then give something worthwhile at each of the levels; perhaps a +2, +3, and +4 tome of choice bound to the character that earned the favor.

I would make drow, favored soul, and 32pt builds available for purchase in the store, perhaps offering VIPs a 50% discount.

[Aesop]

Originally Posted by Lifespawn
Because

1. It gives new people the chance to Pay for something the rest of us had to work for.


This excuse is really silly. Things change and progress. New things come out and old things become easier to obtain... that's not just the nature of the game its the nature of life.So they should just be able to have stuff because time has passed? free raid loot all around Actually I suggested that they charge money for character building options like how they did with Drow, Warforged, Monk and Favored Soul... no one is saying that raid gear should be included... but you knew that and are just trying to twist what is said


2.It sets a precedence for them selling even more stuff in the store like raid loot.

Slippery Slope arguement again? I don't foresee Turbine doing the whole Raid Gear for 50 dollars thing... its counter productive Isn't the grind what makes the money last wouldn't taking out the favor grind be counter productive. Not at all, the grind is what drove me to stop playing for 6 months (though I maintained my account). In fact its what has driven me away from every MMO I've ever played. I play to have fun... if I wanted to grind I'd get a second job instead

3.It takes away a goal.

Its not a goal to me. Its an annoying necessity for doing the aspect of the game I enjoy... building and playing characters. It's not a goal to you because you've been here and done it not so for new people. It never was a goal for me... it however was a little frustrating to be told that I had to get 1750 favor before I could make the character I wanted to play... its a bad model over all... the Micro Transactions is a better method.

4.It actually loses turbine money people that really really care about the 4 point difference are hard core gamers that HAVE to have those 4 points or feel gimped meaning they either have to pay for monthly subs till they get the 1750 or buy enough content to get 1750 worth of favor either way making more cash than just a 32 point buy unless it was a rediculous ammount.


Sounds a little straw like to me... anyone that is hard core is going to buy the Mods anyway and will probably get to 1750 relatively quickly... its the more casual players the ones that want to play the game and have fun that are more likely to buy 32 point builds. Casual players won't give a hoot about a 32 point buy it really makes very little difference to a build your own argument invalidates itself. I think I qualify as a casual player and let me tell ya ... casual players do give a hoot about having character options so your arguement is based on false information

There you go 4 good reasons not to do it.

responses in green

Back to you

Aesop

[Bosco]

Originally Posted by Lifespawn
Because

1. It gives new people the chance to Pay for something the rest of us had to work for.


This excuse is really silly. Things change and progress. New things come out and old things become easier to obtain... that's not just the nature of the game its the nature of life.So they should just be able to have stuff because time has passed? free raid loot all around
Using the example of a far fetched example of raid loot for sale is bogus. Turbine has already stated that bind only raid gear will never be purchasable.

2.It sets a precedence for them selling even more stuff in the store like raid loot.

Slippery Slope arguement again? I don't foresee Turbine doing the whole Raid Gear for 50 dollars thing... its counter productive Isn't the grind what makes the money last wouldn't taking out the favor grind be counter productive.
They still have the xp grind, armor grind and crafting grind to look forward to.

3.It takes away a goal.

Its not a goal to me. Its an annoying necessity for doing the aspect of the game I enjoy... building and playing characters. It's not a goal to you because you've been here and done it not so for new people.
It may not be a goal for others that have requested it.

4.It actually loses turbine money people that really really care about the 4 point difference are hard core gamers that HAVE to have those 4 points or feel gimped meaning they either have to pay for monthly subs till they get the 1750 or buy enough content to get 1750 worth of favor either way making more cash than just a 32 point buy unless it was a rediculous ammount.


Sounds a little straw like to me... anyone that is hard core is going to buy the Mods anyway and will probably get to 1750 relatively quickly... its the more casual players the ones that want to play the game and have fun that are more likely to buy 32 point builds. Casual players won't give a hoot about a 32 point buy it really makes very little difference to a build your own argument invalidates itself.
I agree with Aesop here. The hardcore gamers will want to earn it. That is what drives a hardcore gamer. The feeling of accomplishment. Casual players, aka Drow buyers, are likely to be the consumers

There you go 4 good reasons not to do it.
4 good contradictions to your reasoning
responses in green

Answers in red

[Visty]

Not at all, the grind is what drove me to stop playing for 6 months (though I maintained my account). In fact its what has driven me away from every MMO I've ever played. I play to have fun... if I wanted to grind I'd get a second job instead

tbh, all mmorpgs are about grind

if you dont like to grind, you shouldnt play mmos

[Lifespawn]

Back to you

Originally Posted by Lifespawn
Originally Posted by Lifespawn
Because

1. It gives new people the chance to Pay for something the rest of us had to work for.


This excuse is really silly. Things change and progress. New things come out and old things become easier to obtain... that's not just the nature of the game its the nature of life.So they should just be able to have stuff because time has passed? free raid loot all around Actually I suggested that they charge money for character building options like how they did with Drow, Warforged, Monk and Favored Soul... no one is saying that raid gear should be included... but you knew that and are just trying to twist what is said.Drow and favored souls should not have been in the store either monk and wf should have been a favor reward the old saying give them an inch and they will take a mile holds true.

2.It sets a precedence for them selling even more stuff in the store like raid loot.

Slippery Slope arguement again? I don't foresee Turbine doing the whole Raid Gear for 50 dollars thing... its counter productive Isn't the grind what makes the money last wouldn't taking out the favor grind be counter productive. Not at all, the grind is what drove me to stop playing for 6 months (though I maintained my account). In fact its what has driven me away from every MMO I've ever played. I play to have fun... if I wanted to grind I'd get a second job instead.Well then lets just put capped chars in the store because leveling is too much work if i wanted to do that i'd get a third job....see how silly that sounds?
3.It takes away a goal.

Its not a goal to me. Its an annoying necessity for doing the aspect of the game I enjoy... building and playing characters. It's not a goal to you because you've been here and done it not so for new people. It never was a goal for me... it however was a little frustrating to be told that I had to get 1750 favor before I could make the character I wanted to play... its a bad model over all... the Micro Transactions is a better method.Nothing stopped you from making the char you wanted to play except your desire to have the best you could possibly get again 28pt chars are not gimps.

4.It actually loses turbine money people that really really care about the 4 point difference are hard core gamers that HAVE to have those 4 points or feel gimped meaning they either have to pay for monthly subs till they get the 1750 or buy enough content to get 1750 worth of favor either way making more cash than just a 32 point buy unless it was a rediculous ammount.


Sounds a little straw like to me... anyone that is hard core is going to buy the Mods anyway and will probably get to 1750 relatively quickly... its the more casual players the ones that want to play the game and have fun that are more likely to buy 32 point builds. Casual players won't give a hoot about a 32 point buy it really makes very little difference to a build your own argument invalidates itself. I think I qualify as a casual player and let me tell ya ... casual players do give a hoot about having character options so your arguement is based on false information.You are not a casual player if you care about the points casual players play a few times a week and don't generally run everything on elite for max xp blah blah blah again 4 build points makes very LITLE difference to a build.
There you go 4 good reasons not to do it.

responses in green

Aesop

aqua

[Aesop]

tbh, all mmorpgs are about grind

if you dont like to grind, you shouldnt play mmos

I play them until I get too bored... because until you get to the grind they can be quite fun... after that though the fun-o-meter drops rapidly.

DDO advertised as a non grinding MMO originally ...

That obviously changed.

If they could squeeze a little bit of the grindiness out of it that has popped in... I would be a fair bit happier with the game

Aesop

[Lifespawn]

Answers in red

Originally Posted by Lifespawn
Originally Posted by Lifespawn
Because

1. It gives new people the chance to Pay for something the rest of us had to work for.


This excuse is really silly. Things change and progress. New things come out and old things become easier to obtain... that's not just the nature of the game its the nature of life.So they should just be able to have stuff because time has passed? free raid loot all around
Using the example of a far fetched example of raid loot for sale is bogus. Turbine has already stated that bind only raid gear will never be purchasable.They also stated that 32 point builds won't be purchasable but here you and others are trying to make them change that whats to say you don't do the same for raid loot eventually.

2.It sets a precedence for them selling even more stuff in the store like raid loot.

Slippery Slope arguement again? I don't foresee Turbine doing the whole Raid Gear for 50 dollars thing... its counter productive Isn't the grind what makes the money last wouldn't taking out the favor grind be counter productive.
They still have the xp grind, armor grind and crafting grind to look forward to.So because there are other grinds this one shouldn't be here? All mmo's are about grinding thats what makes them last.
3.It takes away a goal.

Its not a goal to me. Its an annoying necessity for doing the aspect of the game I enjoy... building and playing characters. It's not a goal to you because you've been here and done it not so for new people.
It may not be a goal for others that have requested it.Doesn't matter if people don't want it as a goal the game can dictate goals just like people that bought the game and got in on the fountain guild naming you had to be there and have X ammount of people to qualify should we just allow new people to get on the fountain because they don't think they should have had to work for it?
4.It actually loses turbine money people that really really care about the 4 point difference are hard core gamers that HAVE to have those 4 points or feel gimped meaning they either have to pay for monthly subs till they get the 1750 or buy enough content to get 1750 worth of favor either way making more cash than just a 32 point buy unless it was a rediculous ammount.


Sounds a little straw like to me... anyone that is hard core is going to buy the Mods anyway and will probably get to 1750 relatively quickly... its the more casual players the ones that want to play the game and have fun that are more likely to buy 32 point builds. Casual players won't give a hoot about a 32 point buy it really makes very little difference to a build your own argument invalidates itself.
I agree with Aesop here. The hardcore gamers will want to earn it. That is what drives a hardcore gamer. The feeling of accomplishment. Casual players, aka Drow buyers, are likely to be the consumers.Again i don't think drow in the store was a good idea either it sets a stool for people like you to stand on and say well they allowed this why not this too.One thing leads to another.
There you go 4 good reasons not to do it.
4 good contradictions to your reasoning
responses in green

Some purple color

[Bosco]

tbh, all mmorpgs are about grind

if you dont like to grind, you shouldnt play mmos

A little off subject, but not all mmo's are about the grind. The shortly lived Tabula Rasa was groundbreaking before NC Soft prematurely pulled the plug and ended up with a fat lawsuit.

Grinds for me can be fun. Example is EQ2 grind for your epic weapon. Big Difference though was you did not have to kill the main boss 20 times to get your reward. Nasty raid fights but you went in, you completed your mission, and after enough of the different missions assigned to your class you received your reward. It was grind the same mission over and over and over and over and over.......well you get the point.

So I would have to put the DDO grind at a subpar level compared to other mmos, but superior in a lot of other aspects, such as gameplay, class flexibilty and voip.

[Aesop]

aqua

1. It gives new people the chance to Pay for something the rest of us had to work for.


This excuse is really silly. Things change and progress. New things come out and old things become easier to obtain... that's not just the nature of the game its the nature of life.So they should just be able to have stuff because time has passed? free raid loot all around Actually I suggested that they charge money for character building options like how they did with Drow, Warforged, Monk and Favored Soul... no one is saying that raid gear should be included... but you knew that and are just trying to twist what is said.Drow and favored souls should not have been in the store either monk and wf should have been a favor reward the old saying give them an inch and they will take a mile holds true.

So you want to move things that were not favor rewards into favor rewards to expand the grind... I can see why we disagree.


2.It sets a precedence for them selling even more stuff in the store like raid loot.

Slippery Slope arguement again? I don't foresee Turbine doing the whole Raid Gear for 50 dollars thing... its counter productive Isn't the grind what makes the money last wouldn't taking out the favor grind be counter productive. Not at all, the grind is what drove me to stop playing for 6 months (though I maintained my account). In fact its what has driven me away from every MMO I've ever played. I play to have fun... if I wanted to grind I'd get a second job instead.Well then lets just put capped chars in the store because leveling is too much work if i wanted to do that i'd get a third job....see how silly that sounds?

Why not just get rid of the store totally... I mean if there is nothing there worth buying then the game can go under and we can be done with it...see I can jump to absurd conclusions too... Grinding favor isn't playing the game its playing a secondary aspect of the game ... unfortunately that secondary aspect really bores the hell out of me... so I try to do as little of it as I can...


3.It takes away a goal.

Its not a goal to me. Its an annoying necessity for doing the aspect of the game I enjoy... building and playing characters. It's not a goal to you because you've been here and done it not so for new people. It never was a goal for me... it however was a little frustrating to be told that I had to get 1750 favor before I could make the character I wanted to play... its a bad model over all... the Micro Transactions is a better method.Nothing stopped you from making the char you wanted to play except your desire to have the best you could possibly get again 28pt chars are not gimps.

Notice that I indicate that I like building and playing characters. 4 more points isn't a lot but for unique and experimental characters it can mean the difference between gimp and viable... The real question here is what is the real reason this bothers you... I mean since you have 32 point characters you don't have to spend anything on it... or if you have to still earn the 32 point on your perfered server then you don't seem to mind the grind for favor... so why do you care what other people do with their money... heck you don't even have to play with them if you don't want to.




4.It actually loses turbine money people that really really care about the 4 point difference are hard core gamers that HAVE to have those 4 points or feel gimped meaning they either have to pay for monthly subs till they get the 1750 or buy enough content to get 1750 worth of favor either way making more cash than just a 32 point buy unless it was a rediculous ammount.


Sounds a little straw like to me... anyone that is hard core is going to buy the Mods anyway and will probably get to 1750 relatively quickly... its the more casual players the ones that want to play the game and have fun that are more likely to buy 32 point builds. Casual players won't give a hoot about a 32 point buy it really makes very little difference to a build your own argument invalidates itself. I think I qualify as a casual player and let me tell ya ... casual players do give a hoot about having character options so your arguement is based on false information.You are not a casual player if you care about the points casual players play a few times a week and don't generally run everything on elite for max xp blah blah blah again 4 build points makes very LITLE difference to a build.

Why do you assume that casual player = doesn't care about their characters?
I also don't play more than a couple times a week... in fact I only played for 3 hours this week. I don't really care about Elite play really I just want to play and have fun... part of that fun (that I pay for) is playing 32point characters... and like I said before for some characters 4 points is the difference between viable and gimp. not often mind you but since I like building odd mixes of characters its often enough.


pong

[Aesop]

Some purple color

They also stated that 32 point builds won't be purchasable but here you and others are trying to make them change that whats to say you don't do the same for raid loot eventually.

Actually Eladrin stated that they were considering it, but they had no definate plans at this time


Aesop

[Bosco]

Some purple color

Getting sick of rewriting that stuff hehe. Big difference between the raid gear and 32 point builds being available was Turbine said they were considering 32 point builds. They never stated they would never be available, they said they were considering it when asked in Beta forums.

I think its a good move for them. Should be a cash cow. I don't need or want to buy a 32 point build but I want Turbine to be successful. I enjoy the game and I want to continue to play it.

Anything minor like a 32 point build available for purchase does not break the game mechanics. There are already 99% of all the toons are 32 point builds. Everything is scaled to that. If anyone wants to purchase these builds, I think Turbine should sell it to them.

[Lifespawn]

1. It gives new people the chance to Pay for something the rest of us had to work for.


This excuse is really silly. Things change and progress. New things come out and old things become easier to obtain... that's not just the nature of the game its the nature of life.So they should just be able to have stuff because time has passed? free raid loot all around Actually I suggested that they charge money for character building options like how they did with Drow, Warforged, Monk and Favored Soul... no one is saying that raid gear should be included... but you knew that and are just trying to twist what is said.Drow and favored souls should not have been in the store either monk and wf should have been a favor reward the old saying give them an inch and they will take a mile holds true.

So you want to move things that were not favor rewards into favor rewards to expand the grind... I can see why we disagree. Let me clarify monk and wf should have been favor rewards for non vip's instead of being in the store.

2.It sets a precedence for them selling even more stuff in the store like raid loot.

Slippery Slope arguement again? I don't foresee Turbine doing the whole Raid Gear for 50 dollars thing... its counter productive Isn't the grind what makes the money last wouldn't taking out the favor grind be counter productive. Not at all, the grind is what drove me to stop playing for 6 months (though I maintained my account). In fact its what has driven me away from every MMO I've ever played. I play to have fun... if I wanted to grind I'd get a second job instead.Well then lets just put capped chars in the store because leveling is too much work if i wanted to do that i'd get a third job....see how silly that sounds?

Why not just get rid of the store totally... I mean if there is nothing there worth buying then the game can go under and we can be done with it...see I can jump to absurd conclusions too... Grinding favor isn't playing the game its playing a secondary aspect of the game ... unfortunately that secondary aspect really bores the hell out of me... so I try to do as little of it as I can... Understandable but as was stated it's not really a grind to get to 1750 favor anymore it's just actually playing the game who says you can't have fun playing the game and then see a mail and be like cool i hit 1750 it's only grindy if you make it be.

3.It takes away a goal.

Its not a goal to me. Its an annoying necessity for doing the aspect of the game I enjoy... building and playing characters. It's not a goal to you because you've been here and done it not so for new people. It never was a goal for me... it however was a little frustrating to be told that I had to get 1750 favor before I could make the character I wanted to play... its a bad model over all... the Micro Transactions is a better method.Nothing stopped you from making the char you wanted to play except your desire to have the best you could possibly get again 28pt chars are not gimps.

Notice that I indicate that I like building and playing characters. 4 more points isn't a lot but for unique and experimental characters it can mean the difference between gimp and viable... The real question here is what is the real reason this bothers you... I mean since you have 32 point characters you don't have to spend anything on it... or if you have to still earn the 32 point on your perfered server then you don't seem to mind the grind for favor... so why do you care what other people do with their money... heck you don't even have to play with them if you don't want to. Making experimental chars isn't really a casual thing to do hence why they made char paths and again i think they should have to earn 32 pointers.



4.It actually loses turbine money people that really really care about the 4 point difference are hard core gamers that HAVE to have those 4 points or feel gimped meaning they either have to pay for monthly subs till they get the 1750 or buy enough content to get 1750 worth of favor either way making more cash than just a 32 point buy unless it was a rediculous ammount.


Sounds a little straw like to me... anyone that is hard core is going to buy the Mods anyway and will probably get to 1750 relatively quickly... its the more casual players the ones that want to play the game and have fun that are more likely to buy 32 point builds. Casual players won't give a hoot about a 32 point buy it really makes very little difference to a build your own argument invalidates itself. I think I qualify as a casual player and let me tell ya ... casual players do give a hoot about having character options so your arguement is based on false information.You are not a casual player if you care about the points casual players play a few times a week and don't generally run everything on elite for max xp blah blah blah again 4 build points makes very LITLE difference to a build.

Why do you assume that casual player = doesn't care about their characters?
I also don't play more than a couple times a week... in fact I only played for 3 hours this week. I don't really care about Elite play really I just want to play and have fun... part of that fun (that I pay for) is playing 32point characters... and like I said before for some characters 4 points is the difference between viable and gimp. not often mind you but since I like building odd mixes of characters its often enough.I don't assume the Casual player doesn't care about their chars i assume the casual players don't need and won't notice the 4 build points difference if a char needs 4 points not to be gimp it isn't a casual build it's an advanced build I.E not casual.

pong

ping

[Lifespawn]

Actually Eladrin stated that they were considering it, but they had no definate plans at this time


Aesop

yes after people started asking for it they said they would consider it do you think they would out of the blue just say hey we're thinking of putting 32 point builds in the store?

If that were true they would be in the store already.

[Lifespawn]

Getting sick of rewriting that stuff hehe. Big difference between the raid gear and 32 point builds being available was Turbine said they were considering 32 point builds. They never stated they would never be available, they said they were considering it when asked in Beta forums.

I think its a good move for them. Should be a cash cow. I don't need or want to buy a 32 point build but I want Turbine to be successful. I enjoy the game and I want to continue to play it.

Anything minor like a 32 point build available for purchase does not break the game mechanics. There are already 99% of all the toons are 32 point builds. Everything is scaled to that. If anyone wants to purchase these builds, I think Turbine should sell it to them.

i am tired of writing this see my reply to aesop this goes along with the whole slippery slope thing today 32 point builds tomorrow what?