The Path to Enlightenment

[wax_on_wax_off]

mass heal will remain unaffected

From some limited testing with a 20th level divine caster it seems that mass heal doesn't cap out at 150 as per the description which means that splashing will affect mass heal quite a lot.

Probably best if this gets confirmed.

I love this idea of an "advanced" cleric, other people call it a hybrid build, melee, offensive casting and healing but I'm not convinced that it is viable on a pure cleric. Surely a monk splash brings so much to the table? (+1 dc, feats, skills etc).

[Natashaelle]

How well does this progression concept hold up when you're doing Elite raids and Epic quests?

What kind of tactics should a Cleric be focussing on in those situations (from "end-game" onwards)?

From a Battle Cleric perspective there are many different answers to that, basically depending almost exclusively on your own individual Battle Cleric style.

However, I think the question in that case focuses on your blue bar management -- you need to either maximise your blue bar for your team, or minimise your personal dependency on it altogether. The goal is the same (maximal use of limited healing resources), but this simple dichotomy leads however to not just two binary solutions, but to a plethora of strategies based on individual style

My own method is to minimise self-healing as far as is possible without sacrificing effectiveness. Huge AC, Torc, Concordant Opposition, Levik's Shield is one way to achieve that goal -- but massive DPS + Radiant Servant is another way, and I'm sure there are others.

No mêlée based Battle Cleric should ever attempt to solo heal in the endgame, unless exceptionally if the player knows the toon has enough resources to pull it off. (oh, and with the proviso that the VERY high DPS parties probably mean you can solo heal despite any handicaps )

(however, every Battle Cleric should always have enough resources carried to take over an exceptional solo healing job if the main healer(s) has/have any kind of accident(s), either in-game or ISP-wise)

Oh, Bauble from "Weapons Shipment" is a MUST for every single cleric at the endgame (even those self-worshipping ones that only self-heal) !!!

Whichever accessibility to mana pots you have is an enormous factor, if buying pots off the AH or Store is no issue for you, you will significantly widen the range of working strategies for your toon in the epics especially.

Battle Clerics of whichever style in the endgame need to know and deeply understand the exact balance of their DPS and Healing powers, and to prepare accordingly so that they know exactly when to fight, when to go into healer mode, and the rare occasions when they can fill the pure Battle Cleric rôle of "I laugh off attacks by the mobs whilst returning the entire party from wipe status back to survivability"

[Natashaelle]

I love this idea of an "advanced" cleric, other people call it a hybrid build, melee, offensive casting and healing but I'm not convinced that it is viable on a pure cleric. Surely a monk splash brings so much to the table? (+1 dc, feats, skills etc).

I don't play pure clerics in DDO, but I can assure you that the best all-rounder "Advanced Cleric" is a pure single class build...

All that the monk splash provides you is some AC which is going to be mostly useless in endgame unless you specialise, and Evasion -- Evasion is nice, but no Advanced Cleric even needs it. Besides, the best Evasion Clerics are the ones with some far more useful trapmonkey skills IMO

The confusion that some people have is that Advanced Clerics engage in mêlée -- but they never do so pointlessly.

Battle Clerics have that mêlée focus, but they sacrifice offensive casting (and for some builds even the healing) in order to get it.

Advanced Clerics should not be confused AT ALL with Battle Clerics ...

[The_Great_Samulas]

From some limited testing with a 20th level divine caster it seems that mass heal doesn't cap out at 150 as per the description which means that splashing will affect mass heal quite a lot.

Probably best if this gets confirmed.

I love this idea of an "advanced" cleric, other people call it a hybrid build, melee, offensive casting and healing but I'm not convinced that it is viable on a pure cleric. Surely a monk splash brings so much to the table? (+1 dc, feats, skills etc).

You are correct. There does appear to be something going on. Furthermore, it appears to be even a deeper problem with FvS vs. Cleric.

I have three main healers:
Samulos - human 20 cleric with radiant servant
Samulys - human 17/2/1 cleric/monk/fighter with radiant servant
Samuluos - human 18/2 FvS/monk

All have 10% healing amp from human

The complete formula for healing is this (page 7 of this thread):

POTENTIAL DAMAGE = (((((BASE*(MAXIMIZED+EMPOWER+100%))*(POTENCY+ENHAN CEMENT+100%))*(CRIT ENHANCEMENT+CRIT ITEM+100%))*MONSTER)
ACTUAL DAMAGE = (((POTENTIAL DAMAGE*(100%-ABSORB ENERGY)) - RESIST ENERGY) - PROTECTION from ENERGY)

I did a test with the following numbers:
.....................Samulos.....-....Samulys....-....Samuluos
Mass Heal...........338...............292.............. ..277........(Mass Heal is not following the spell description)
Mass Heal+E........592...............511............... 415
Heal...................231...............231...... .........231......(Heal appears to be working normally)
Heal+E................403...............403....... ........346
MCSW................57.5..............52.2........ ......50.9....(This appear fine)

Additional test - died on my cleric, with the level penalty I was getting 323 and 565 on my mass heals instead of 338 and 592, 15 points more per level without empower (this is 10/lvl before enhancements). It appears both clerics and FvS are getting 10/lvl, and clerics are getting the two bonus levels for Radiant Servant II.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

I don't play pure clerics in DDO, but I can assure you that the best all-rounder "Advanced Cleric" is a pure single class build...

All that the monk splash provides you is some AC which is going to be mostly useless in endgame unless you specialise, and Evasion -- Evasion is nice, but no Advanced Cleric even needs it. Besides, the best Evasion Clerics are the ones with some far more useful trapmonkey skills IMO

I agree with a vast majority of your posts, but just want to point out a few other things a monk splash (with 3 levels) brings, up to the player to decide if it is worth what they lose.

1. Two bonus feats.
2. Tier one animal path, I take hound for another +2 to hit while flanking.
3. Healing amp.
4. Water stance for higher wisdom (note this DOES NOT make up for the loss of three cleric levels, but it helps.) And Wind or Fire Stance for melee.

5. Fists of light and align the heavens. - Not as difficult to get off as many people think and translate to alot of free regenning heals. Also makes soloing a breeze.


You give up alot to get those though, definitely a choice based on playstyle.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I agree with a vast majority of your posts, but just want to point out a few other things a monk splash (with 3 levels) brings, up to the player to decide if it is worth what they lose.

1. Two bonus feats.
2. Tier one animal path, I take hound for another +2 to hit while flanking.
3. Healing amp.
4. Water stance for higher wisdom (note this DOES NOT make up for the loss of three cleric levels, but it helps.) And Wind or Fire Stance for melee.

5. Fists of light and align the heavens. - Not as difficult to get off as many people think and translate to alot of free regenning heals. Also makes soloing a breeze.


You give up alot to get those though, definitely a choice based on playstyle.

Yeah, I tried the monk splash build on a cleric and FvS.
-I like it on a FvS, because I consider the FvS capstone and DR at 20 fairly worthless compared to evasion (I just use heal scrolls for free healing, and stoneskin for DR when needed). However, as I mentioned earlier the cleric capstone is extremely potent when used intelligently.
-I find the monk splash on a cleric more useful in solo situations, which my pure seems to handle better in the end anyways. I don't solo much either way.
-I also find the monk clickies an annoying playstyle myself.
-The cleric aura is all that is really needed for constant healing.
-I built my monk splash cleric to take advantage of the DC bonus in water stance, but have become disillusioned with it.

All in all, I enjoy my monk splash toons, but I still prefer my pure for raw power (eSOS will be nice). It comes down to the cleric class being very versatile in the first place, so splashing isn't necessary to increase potency (and you give up a potent capstone). However, both build types can make potent "advanced clerics". Once again, lots of build possibilities for what you enjoy to do.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Yeah, I tried the monk splash build on a cleric and FvS.
-I like it on a FvS, because I consider the FvS capstone and DR at 20 fairly worthless compared to evasion (I just use heal scrolls for free healing, and stoneskin for DR when needed). However, as I mentioned earlier the cleric capstone is extremely potent when used intelligently.
-I find the monk splash on a cleric more useful in solo situations, which my pure seems to handle better in the end anyways. I don't solo much either way.
-I also find the monk clickies an annoying playstyle myself.
-The cleric aura is all that is really needed for constant healing.
-I built my monk splash cleric to take advantage of the DC bonus in water stance, but have become disillusioned with it.

All in all, I enjoy my monk splash toons, but I still prefer my pure for raw power (eSOS will be nice). It comes down to the cleric class being very versatile in the first place, so splashing isn't necessary to increase potency (and you give up a potent capstone). However, both build types can make potent "advanced clerics". Once again, lots of build possibilities for what you enjoy to do.

Couldn't agree more, i really only took the 3 monk levels because i love the unarmed fighting style of a monk and being able to throw 100+ healing ki for free is fun to me. But again I really like the monk clickies. I also don't play epics, so that may affect my enjoyment of it as well.

My current cleric I am levelling is a 19/1 or 18/2 (still deciding) helf with pally dillie. If he dies (he is PD) I am going to prolly make him a pure cleric with fighter dillie.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I don't play pure clerics in DDO, but I can assure you that the best all-rounder "Advanced Cleric" is a pure single class build...

All that the monk splash provides you is some AC which is going to be mostly useless in endgame unless you specialise, and Evasion -- Evasion is nice, but no Advanced Cleric even needs it. Besides, the best Evasion Clerics are the ones with some far more useful trapmonkey skills IMO

The confusion that some people have is that Advanced Clerics engage in mêlée -- but they never do so pointlessly.

Battle Clerics have that mêlée focus, but they sacrifice offensive casting (and for some builds even the healing) in order to get it.

Advanced Clerics should not be confused AT ALL with Battle Clerics ...

The stated intention of an advanced cleric by the OP is to equivalent to a hybrid build; competent/appropriate melee, offensive casting and healing all in one package. Certainly, any build can accomplish competent melee by equipping an eSoS but until then a monk splash will be, by far, a superior hybrid build.

As an FYI, no wizard ruins their DC and spell pen for measly trap skills. Traps barely matter at all and can be walked past/dodged in just about all content barring a couple of raids. No, the reason they splash 2 rogue is for evasion because that is worth it. The same is true for a hybrid cleric. Feats are tight on such a build, skill selection is limited and monk helps both of these issues but the main thing is evasion. The 19th and 20th cleric levels aren't such a big deal on account of the best cleric spells not having spell pen. Water stance gives a higher DC than what a pure cleric can achieve.

Regarding the third monk level, I would say no. The third monk level gives more survivability and self healing to a build which has some of the best survivability and self healing in the game. What is lacking is DPS and picking up a level of fighter to take stunning fist/class toughness/haste boost/intimidate is a much better choice for a true hybrid build. It should be quite possible to have a working stunning fist for 90% of content and the ability to AC/evasion tank many encounters with intimidate; both of these significantly lower incoming party damage. Having martial proficiency to use two handed swords or heavy picks (with haste boost) is a bonus too.

Certainly my favorite build in the game at the moment is a half-elf 2 monk / 1 fighter / 17 cleric with rogue dilettante. Past lives are highly desirable due to almost ultimate MAD and just about any PL feat being useful.

[Natashaelle]

As an FYI, no wizard ruins their DC and spell pen for measly trap skills.

Sure -- but wizards are a different kettle of fish

I have 2 wizzie with trap skills, but the one is pretty much deliberately gimped (he's a DDO version of a classic 1st edition Fighter/Magic-User/Thief, just for the fun of it), whilst the other is a (more solid) jack-of-all-trades build. Wizards make for surprisingly bad trap monkeys in my experience !!

[Gnorbert]

Wizards make for surprisingly bad trap monkeys in my experience !!

I don't know about that... I run regularly with an 18/2 who can get most traps on epic without uber gear.

Really digging this thread.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Well, its been a few weeks. I thought I would add something to the thread. I thought some details concerning mana regeneration would be helpful. Of course, you can save a tremendous amount of mana by using your radiant servant abilities wisely. You can save even more by just developing good healing techniques. But, it is nice knowing where to get items that will just give you mana. Here you go in order of importance:

The Torc of Prince Raiyum – the best mana regeneration item in the game acquired in the Demon Queen raid. Every time you are hit by a physical attack doing damage, there is a 10% chance of you getting mana in the low 20s range. This item should be the top priority of any caster that can heal themselves. It makes mana extremely plentiful in solo situations, and can help a lot in group situations, provided you do some melee (less helpful otherwise, but sill somewhat).

The Mysterious Bauble – an extremely useful item acquired through the end chest in the weapon shipment quest in Amarath. It gives you one clickie/rest that gives you the equivalent of a major mnemonic potion in mana.

Concordiant Opposition Greensteel – a useful enhancement that can be crafted in the shroud using a dual shard (24 larges) tier 3 upgrade . This item has a 1-2% chance of procing either a mana or hp regeneration effect (chances are independent and NOT exclusive). Many people rave on these, but not so much since they have been nerfed such that multiple items don’t stack, though you can still make a weapon and item and have them function together (this may be nerfed as well in the future). I have these items, but the mana regeneration pales in contrast to the Torc, such that I am thinking of getting rid of them in favor of epic gear.

Twisted Talisman – useful item that can give you mana (50) in exchange for hit points (25) that can be acquired through the Last Stand in the Red Fens series of quests in house K. Nicely, you can make this epic, which has 5 clickies, and have a non-epic version as well that has 3 clickies.

Vile Blasphemy – useful mana over time clickie acquired in the Abbot raid. Gives about 200 mana over the course of 3 minutes if you use all three clickies. Easy to swap out and use.

Ear Dweller – useful for other purposes, but also gives you eardweller larvae if you aren’t warforged that you can eat to give you a mana over time effect similar to the vile blasphemy. You have to go through a disease state for 5 minutes to “incubate” the eggs that hatch to larvae. You have to be careful not to heal yourself while in this state or it will remove the disease (you can cast cures on yourself). Be advised, you go through an effect similar to eating something in the tavern that prevents you from healing for about 8 seconds or so. The larvae last for an hour, so you can make them before a quest (as many as you want). You can also trade them to others.

Ring of spell storing – useful clickies which can give you 75 mana per shrine acquired in the explorer area of the Menecheran dessert (back chest behind Wiz King where the three mummies are, past the mephitis). It can be ugraded to an epic version which will give you the equivalent of 3 major mana pots/rest. Good luck making it epic. I have lead over 200 epic DQs and still don’t have it.

Yugoloth Int pots – A not so useful item for clerics, but included for completeness. These potions give 1 mana every 3-6 seconds for 15 minutes, +2 to your intelligence, and a fortitude reduction of 50%.

Archivist’s Necklace – restores 10-35 mana per clickie. It has 2 clickies. You can get it from the end reward in The Salvation of Korthos quest on Korthos island. It is ok, I don’t think its worth the backpack spot.

Mnemonic potions of various levels are also available of course.

You can look up more on the specific items here. Hope I didn’t forget anything.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Concordiant Opposition Greensteel – a useful enhancement that can be crafted in the shroud using a dual shard (24 larges) tier 3 upgrade . This item has a 1-2% chance of procing either a mana or hp regeneration effect (chances are independent and NOT exclusive). Many people rave on these, but not so much since they have been nerfed such that multiple items don’t stack, though you can still make a weapon and item and have them function together (this may be nerfed as well in the future). I have these items, but the mana regeneration pales in contrast to the Torc, such that I am thinking of getting rid of them in favor of epic gear.

The proc rate for both temp HP and SP is 4%, not 1-2%.

[wax_on_wax_off]

The proc rate for both temp HP and SP is 4%, not 1-2%.

Also ddowiki at least indicates that torc is only 5%, not 10%.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Have you independently evaluated the proc rate for concordiant opposition? Some resources indicate the 4% proc rate, but more reliable ones indicate 2% for hp and 2% for mana. Of course, if you wear and item and use a weapon it would be 4% for each. I haven't independently evaluated concordiant opposition, but based upon play experience it is alot less than the torc (not half, less than that). I will sometimes hot swap out the torc and forget to put it back. I readily observe that my mana regen is mostly gone when this happens. I have not been that impressed with concordiant opposition in general, considering you have to wear it and can't swap it out for the mana benefits. Of course, you get quite a few other things with it depending upon how you craft it (so its kind of a bonus effect anyways).

The proc rate for the Torc is indeed 10% (ddowiki is wrong). I have independently evaluated it on both the epic and normal varieties (which are the same proc rate). I let someone hit me 50 times in PVP using each item. Both versions procced 5 times.

In any event, the generation of mana from items can be extremely good. You have to learn to deal with agro of mobs to get the most efficient rates. Eventually, the use of the intimidate skill becomes very useful on clerics to control aggro rates. This has the benefit of reducing overall party damage and allowing you to use DR shields (Hound, Reaver, and Mindsunder varieties) to lower the overall damage to the group without a large loss in group DPS. You get to do this and gain mana at the same time.

[Aruell]

As a new DDO player who has started on the path to enlightenment, just wanted to say well done on such a great guide. Incredible that it is not stickied!

[FlyingTurtle]

I did a test with the following numbers:
.....................Samulos.....-....Samulys....-....Samuluos
Mass Heal...........338...............292.............. ..277........(Mass Heal is not following the spell description)
Mass Heal+E........592...............511............... 415
Heal...................231...............231...... .........231......(Heal appears to be working normally)
Heal+E................403...............403....... ........346
MCSW................57.5..............52.2........ ......50.9....(This appear fine)

Glad I popped into this thread again.

This is huge. So the splash throwing Mass Heals in a raid situation has a 5% disadvantage per splash level. This is in addition to losing the DI capstone and the extra SP and spell pen.

I'm finally understanding how an inexperienced or undergeared splash healer should not try to solo heal while a pure one can.

[Elucidus]

Mass Heal probably follows the limits in PnP I have found quite a few spells like that in DDO. Mass Aid was one of them, don't know if they fixed the descriptions or not.

The limit in PnP for mass heal is 250 HP (CL 25).

Which may explain the difference in your results. I can attest as a pure cleric that my mass heal is stronger than regular. Though with my potency VI item my heal actually cures much more, just to one person.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Glad I popped into this thread again.

This is huge. So the splash throwing Mass Heals in a raid situation has a 5% disadvantage per splash level. This is in addition to losing the DI capstone and the extra SP and spell pen.

I'm finally understanding how an inexperienced or undergeared splash healer should not try to solo heal while a pure one can.

You must keep in mind that the numbers for both are still in the 500s with empowered healing active. Plenty to keep anyone alive, except maybe poorly built warforged (then I don't know if the difference would save them anyways). I think the main detriment for splashes is still the loss of mana. This is overcome with experience and gear as you mentioned. Most of the healing for mass heal is wasted in overhealing anyways, which is why I use mass cure critical instead (empowered healing, no quicken, amarath belt boosted) as my main healing. I find the use of MCCW more mana efficient in skilled hands than mass heal, even in fights where the use of mass heal is easy such as epic dragon.

Mass Heal probably follows the limits in PnP I have found quite a few spells like that in DDO. Mass Aid was one of them, don't know if they fixed the descriptions or not.

The limit in PnP for mass heal is 250 HP (CL 25).

Which may explain the difference in your results. I can attest as a pure cleric that my mass heal is stronger than regular. Though with my potency VI item my heal actually cures much more, just to one person.

Yes, someone else told me this as well. I think you are right, and they are following PnP rules. They just made a mistake with the spell description. I played alot of PnP (mostly 2nd ed), but we never played at the level where these spells were used.

[Elucidus]

Mass Heal has a host of problems, overhealing is a big one, the other is the full round casting time, which is not in PnP. Also, if you have a potency VI item, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds will be one of your best mass healing spells. It dwarfs my serious and is a little better than my critical.

With the cove dagger (if you aren't also melee), it will make MCSW the best one.

*And I have never gotten the chance to use Mass Heal in PnP either.

I find it interesting that a 17th level cleric does not get a free healing spell, just because it doesn't have cure in the name. Then again, they didn't follow the spells from the healing domain anyway and we get to pick our extra 9th level spell, so I can't complain really. I have yet to prepare mass heal, but I haven't done anything really hard yet either.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Sorry for the late reply. I have been out of town. It sounds like you need to get your hands on the Amarath belt clickies. There are two of them that give you superior devotion VIII, which will let you amp your mass cure critical wounds spell by 75%. The clickies last for 3 minutes and you get three of them per belt. There are two belts.

I prefer mass cure critical wounds and mass cure serious wounds (with empower healing as the only active meta magic) for my standard go to healing spells. It takes more experience to use these spells efficiently, but they are more efficient than mass heal when you are skilled. This is mostly due to overhealing inherent with mass heal.