The Path to Enlightenment

[The_Great_Samulas]

Today i saw our "battle cleric" die .. of course after that 3 other people died. Had to raise him with my rogue. If he wast a battle cleric and just stayed back noone would die. Thats a fact. There is also the thing he was a poor player and possibly an idiot but that doesnt really help my point. Although i still think in a lot of situations clerics should stay out of aggro becouse if cleric dies scary things happen.

I'm going to respond here not to the poster, but to the attitude of the post, as I believe this will help healers more. That's who I'm interested in helping. Rectifying other players perceptions of what a healer should do is not one of my interests.

"That is a fact." You see this alot. Players with experience in other MMOs, players that think they know what they are talking about that don't, players that just have a me centric view of playing, or players that don't have a healer toon or haven't played a healer at the higher levels. You see players that really lay it on thick with a very self-assured posture telling healers to stay back and heal. The reality is that only "gimpy" players need a healbot in standard quests. If you can't stay alive 5-10 seconds after dropping to 30% (the longest you should need to wait for a heal, provided the healer thinks you diserve one), then you need to address your playstyle.

They basically like to blame the healer for their own play issues most of the time. The
only fact here is that you can usually say there is something about the player not playing the cleric that could be improved. This of course doesn't indicate that the healer was perfect, but it is rarely solely a problem with healing. This is because, there are very few encounters that need a healer to "save the bacon" in order for you to complete them. If there is a situation where "saving the bacon" is necessary, its almost always because of poor strategy, even on elite.

The only caveat to this is that you can have clerics that decide they are ready to play a stage 5-7 cleric, when they don't have the experience yet to do it. I've heard people claiming that they moved through these stages quickly, when it actually takes time with multiple group settings to gain the expertise. Running through waterworks on normal and meleeing does not make you a stage 5 cleric. Nor does doing Running with Devils with a guild group while meleeing and offensive casting. Do a quest where you actually have to heal and the other facets to test your mettle. When you are in VoD, actually melee the orthons and Sullomondes while healing when you are the only cleric - on hard even. Do Sins of Attrition and vorpal with the other tanks while you keep them alive. When you can do these, you are very much at stage 5-7. Then do it without any mana pots. I only present these to give the healers something to test their mettle against, not to say you aren't good if you can't do these things.

In the end, you need to have fun playing your healer. Don't let players who think they know what they are talking about fool you into being a healbot if that isn't what you want. They frankly need you more than you need them. Don't over-estimate your abilities or experience, but don't play it too safe either.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I've been thinking of possible ways to enhance the experience of beginning clerics. I thought it might be useful to provide a means of showing them just how potent a cleric can be when you expand your playstyle to include the other aspects of clericing.

I thought I would start with stage 3, where you learn crowd control. A perfect training exercise for this is to take your level 3 or 4 cleric into the Waterworks series. Buy 2 or 3 soundburst wands from the vendor in the market in the center area where the "tent" is. Hotkey these wands, placing one of the wands keyed to your number one key on the keyboard. The others should be placed on hotkeys to transfer there when you use that one up. Your party makeup should be all melee maximum level of 5and yourself (you don't want arcanes for this exercise). Go in on elite and make sure you have command loaded as a level 1 spell. Load resist elements as well.

Through the entire Waterworks chain on elite, spam soundburst from the wand on all monsters, particularly groups of them. Target groups of mobs before the tanks get in range to activate them and lay into them with soundbursts. If you gain agro of non-controlled mob simply target it and blast it with another soundburst or command it. Notice how effectively the tanks mop them up and which critters it works more effectively on. Notice how uncontrolled mobs target you and ignore the tanks while the tanks tear them apart. Then try it once or twice without soundburst and note the difference. Vary the amount of burst you do once you are comfortably with it to see just how much is needed. Don't buff the tanks in any way. This should effectively teach you the power of crowd control. The amount of healing you have to do will be extremely limited and you shouldn't need to shrine at all (depending of course on how much you decide to use your mana on extras). If you are interested you can use soundburst from your own mana and note the difference in effectiveness on tougher fortitude save creatures such as ogres or hobgoblins.

Some pitfalls to watch out for: 1) When you run into the ogres command them. 2)When you get to the red side of (part 2?) cast electrical and fire resist on yourself and the first two tanks going up the windy path to get the switch. Help them clear the way by running behind them and soundbursting caster groups ahead of them. 3) On the green side make sure your evasion tank has acid resist. 4) Warn party members not to engage ogres until they are controlled by command or soundburst.

Hope this helps some of you.

[foolish]

This should be mandatory reading for all new clerics. I have recently decided to improve my play style as I am having fun and plan to stick around longer then I first thought.
I came from the school of thought that a cleric only heals and nothing else. My toon is level 11 while I am somewhere between 2 – 3. Now I have had a lot of fun with this play stile, but from reading the forums I have learned that I can be more then a spam healer.
From reading this and the subsequent comments I now know what I need to learn to become a better player, and earn the tile cleric and not just be another heal bot.
Thank you for wise words as well as your pity on us newbes

[soupertc]

I was talking to Sam last night and with the amount of positive comments he's gotten on this thread I told him we should take it a step further. Starting within the next couple of weeks we are gonna be starting a Cleric Academy on the Sarlona server. We will be putting up LFMs for those wanting tips/advice and also group with you to speed ya along too.

Now in no way are we claiming we are experts....but the community as a whole will benifit greatly I think if we help them along. I mean we've all heard the horror stories of "The Cleric" who was 14th level or higher who didn't have the Heal Spell memmed.

So even if your not on Sarlona....make a toon there if your intrested in learning how to play a cleric or FvS. Just keep an eye in this thread or the Sarlona forums for info when we get it started. If anyone else from Sarlona who has a cleric would like to help that would be even sweeter!!! Hope to see ya guys soon.

as a sidenote.....if I can ever find the proper motivation I plan on making some videos of Sam and some other clerics on our server who I think are pretty good to help newer players too. This might be longer than the Academy....cause videos and editing is not a whole lot of fun for me.

[The_Great_Samulas]

This should be mandatory reading for all new clerics. I have recently decided to improve my play style as I am having fun and plan to stick around longer then I first thought.
I came from the school of thought that a cleric only heals and nothing else. My toon is level 11 while I am somewhere between 2 – 3. Now I have had a lot of fun with this play stile, but from reading the forums I have learned that I can be more then a spam healer.
From reading this and the subsequent comments I now know what I need to learn to become a better player, and earn the tile cleric and not just be another heal bot.
Thank you for wise words as well as your pity on us newbes

I'm glad the thread has been of help. I started the thread to help people just like you. I was quite heartened by your post and that you decided to stick with the game and keep playing a cleric. And welcome to the forums (I saw this was your first post). I'm honored that my thread prompted you to post for the first time.

You will find that a cleric can be the most potent class in the game provided you can exploit all of the things it can do. Just don't take any advice from people that don't play clerics, and be critical of advice from people that play healbots. Both of these will hurt your advancement more than they will help you. Have fun with the cleric class. There is alot to develop and strive for to make your cleric a powerhouse. Start doing the dessert (Chamber of Raiyum, aka Wiz King, it is awesome xp) and get cranking on DQ runs to get your Torc and the greenblade.

[foolish]

I was talking to Sam last night and with the amount of positive comments he's gotten on this thread I told him we should take it a step further. Starting within the next couple of weeks we are gonna be starting a Cleric Academy on the Sarlona server. We will be putting up LFMs for those wanting tips/advice and also group with you to speed ya along too.

Let me know when you have this started, and I'll turn up. Reading is all very well but I could use in game advice.

I will need to start a new cleric in that server, oh what hardships I must endure

@The_Great_Samulas: Good advice is always appreciated. Still a bit too green to start working on a greenblade, but soon and with a better cleric. My current one needs to be rerolled as he is a 28 pointer, preset path kind of guy

[The_Great_Samulas]

I have been putting a little thought into putting together the cleric academy that soupertc was discussing. It would be based in the Sarlona server, although I could ghost in groups on other servers. I am thinking I could devote approximately an hour a week to the endeavor, both through discussion sessions and actual critique during challenging quests.

What I am wondering is how much interest there is in this sort of thing. Let me know if you are interested or people you know might be (that don't read the forums) in this thread or via a private message, and I'll think about it a bit more. I'll post in the next few days the benefits I see to it for people interested. Also, if you are interested in assisting in the development of other clerics through this mechanism let me know.

[Rothos]

1st off, id love to join a cleric school, as would a few lower level clerics on khyber.
2nd, im at a weird level, and wanted to find out what stage im in. I actively use CC and the occasional soundburst to help stop dmg, i buff, and i melee when either things come to me, or after i stun a large group. The reason im confused at what stage i am is that im rather poor, so i cant afford to buy mana pots, so i dont use them. I seldom have a death, but if someone dies im not too concerned, normally its zergarians that run out of range and LOS. And any advice you got would be appreciated.

[foolish]

I'll ask around to see if any clerics I know are intrested. Once I get to a better standered of play and can impart GOOD advice I would be willing to help teach others

[The_Great_Samulas]

1st off, id love to join a cleric school, as would a few lower level clerics on khyber.
2nd, im at a weird level, and wanted to find out what stage im in. I actively use CC and the occasional soundburst to help stop dmg, i buff, and i melee when either things come to me, or after i stun a large group. The reason im confused at what stage i am is that im rather poor, so i cant afford to buy mana pots, so i dont use them. I seldom have a death, but if someone dies im not too concerned, normally its zergarians that run out of range and LOS. And any advice you got would be appreciated.

To your first point, I'm most likely going to do this on Sarlona first. You may be able to just make up a toon on Sarlona and join the raid group we will form for the roundtable discussion. Active involvement on other servers may come later, depending upon interest.

As far as point 2. Sounds like you are at stage 3 at the moment, perhaps skipping aspects of the use of consumables in stage 2. This is rather hard for me to determine based upon the information given. You definately are attempting to use all aspects of the cleric. You should use cure moderate wound wands to augment non-combat healing up to level 8-10 if money is an issue. Once you start working in raid groups and learn the intricacies of healing larger groups you'll advance to the over-healer stage typically.

The confusion you are feeling is most likely due to lower level questing, which is fairly easy compared to level 12+ quests (most of the times in these quests, I don't even bother to get a dedicated healer for a group). It sounds like you are trying to work at being a balanced cleric and you may quickly advance to stage 5, but you won't really know you are there until you are in more challenging quest situations. The thing to keep in mind is when the group is taking a good amount of damage and taking a beating, is your solution to sit back and heal or to jump in there and kick some @ss. A healbot will stay in the corner and keep everyone alive as best as they can, a cleric will jump in, throw down crowd control, mass heal, vorpal/dps critters, and generally just go wild. I don't know about others, but those are the fights worth playing the game for me.

You should use the lower levels to practice the things listed in the learning objectives. It sounds like you are doing well, so keep trying to balance all aspects of the cleric as you level. It will get more difficult as you get higher level. Hope it helps.

[AylinIsAwesome]

[. . .]

I prefer dwarven or human clerics with 16-18 wisdom starting, good con, decent strength, dump stat charisma. Have a 10th level FS at the moment, so I haven't seen him in end-game. Not too impressed so far, I would stay cleric. Seem limited as far as spell selection. The extra-mana is nice, and will help healers that haven't found the way yet, but for those of us that know a cleric well, the extra mana isn't needed and having charisma and wisdom isn't possible without killing everything else (even then, your level ups only go one spot, wisdom if you are smart). The amount of mana a 20th level cleric gets is crazy already (and clerics get empowered healing), I don't think more mana is worth the FS. I have seen FS that claim they have 3100 mana, but were still using mana pots (figure that one out). As far as the fighting ability, it doesn't seem that impressive, though splashing FS with monk/fighter/pally in a battle-cleric sort of build is probably pretty good. Wings are the only thing that make it cool for me.

I have to say that I prefer my Favoured Souls over the Clerics I used to play.

A few things to note though.

1. You don't need a lot of CHA on a FvS, 12 starting is more than enough.

2. The DR 10 you get at level 20 is very nice, especially if you melee a lot. The stacking resistances are too.

3. Favoured Souls can get Empowered Healing too. The difference is their enhancements reduce the cost of Empower though, which you can use to increase the power of your Blade Barrier to fun levels.

4. The lack of spell selection is a mild issue if you use wands and scrolls to make up the difference. Remove Curse Wands are pretty cheap, and so are scrolls of Restoration, for example.

5. Melee-wise, Favoured Souls get free prof in a weapon, and can get more HP than a Cleric without splashing (due to Toughness enhancements for the class). Also they get bonuses to damage and to-hit in their weapon, which Clerics don't get.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I have to say that I prefer my Favoured Souls over the Clerics I used to play.

A few things to note though.

1. You don't need a lot of CHA on a FvS, 12 starting is more than enough.

2. The DR 10 you get at level 20 is very nice, especially if you melee a lot. The stacking resistances are too.

3. Favoured Souls can get Empowered Healing too. The difference is their enhancements reduce the cost of Empower though, which you can use to increase the power of your Blade Barrier to fun levels.

4. The lack of spell selection is a mild issue if you use wands and scrolls to make up the difference. Remove Curse Wands are pretty cheap, and so are scrolls of Restoration, for example.

5. Melee-wise, Favoured Souls get free prof in a weapon, and can get more HP than a Cleric without splashing (due to Toughness enhancements for the class). Also they get bonuses to damage and to-hit in their weapon, which Clerics don't get.

Yeah, the post you are quoting is quite old. I've capped my FvS and outfitted him with endgame gear since then. I still prefer my clerics (have 2 of those). I've discussed this in other threads since then, and this isn't the appropriate thread for this discussion (there is one you should read linked here, and others). Some notes on your points:

1) Unless you are disjuncted and lose your charisma item effects, which has happened to me in epic and based upon the trend of new dungeons will happen more often. Remember your charisma score not only affects mana (negligle) but your maximum spell level you can cast. If you are disjuncted with a 12 charisma, you will lose access to your bread and butter spells.

2) The DR and stacking resists are insignificant at end game on a divine caster who can heal and protect themselves like a FS or cleric (120 point protections for free). 10 points of elemental resist? Its not useful at endgame. Only useful when leveling. My FS and clerics laugh at 100 points of elemental damage (even if it does get by my protections). 10 points of melee DR? You can make all the stoneskin clickies you want on a cleric, for those really tough fights (and you only need them at the beginning). All that said if you are running around with only 300-350 hp (you should have 100 more than that), that DR may be useful to you.

3) Yes, I was referring to the enhancements. There are very few FvS that take empower healing though, because of their enhancement line, fascination with BB damage, and capstone. The main point of empower healing is not just saving mana, but increasing the potency of your heal spell (and once they fix it, mass heal).

4) There are spell selection issues at several levels, but the biggest are 6 and 8. These are even more pronounced in splash builds.

5) Clerics get the same proficiencies and a to hit bonus with a 2pt enhancement. They also get divine might if they want it. They also get 2 levels of toughness, more if a dwarf (which is my preferred race on a cleric). 20 more hit points on a FvS is nice, but I don't think its worth the enhancement points on a class that can heal themselves.

Many people like the FvS, I would hope they do. I still find the clerics versatility to make it a superior class (at least in my hands). In the end, I recommend FvS to beginning healers (provided they get some spell selection advice) because of the mana issue.

But, getting back to the focus of this thread in a related point. I think you'll find as you progress in expertise in playing a healer (stage 6-7), that you will prefer a cleric. However this will only occur if you get past stage 4. Most of the highly proficient healers I have run with still prefer their clerics over a FvS. The highest reason for this is versatlity, which is the main focus of learning in stage 7.

7) Great Cleric
You can actually do all three aspects of the cleric very well – fight, heal, and offensive cast. You have stopped wondering why other people play other classes, because you don’t group with them anymore because you don’t need them. I say that in partial jest because it is still a MMO and most of the fun is still in grouping. You rarely run out of mana, because monsters are so kind to give it back you when it’s needed. You solo end game content on normal with little issue, and you do some of it on elite. Weapon shipment is a nice loot run when you want to take it easy.
Primary learning objective – How can I fine tune my enhancements and gear to maximize my three aspects? You are fine tuning your ability to recognize sub-standard toons BEFORE they become an issue and adjust your playstyle to compensate for these or other weak points in a group. You may even view grouping with these toons as a challenge rather than a hassle.

[DToNE]

Haha, sounds familiar.

Went through step 1-3. Remade, went through steps 1-3 again until level 14, then became Final Step LoL.

- I like to go around corners and run ahead alot.
- Yes, I am the zerging cleric, come with me if you want to live.

Definitely sounds like me. I'm actually at the point where I can't create a 2nd character that's not an EXACT replica of my current Cleric. Even on Elite, I score highest kill count (even more than the Casters), keep everyone alive and functional, handle normal~elite traps competently, Incapacitate without using a drop of SP. I don't even have my SP Replenishing gear yet, I can only wonder how much more stellar I'll become once I get the SP recovery items.

[AylinIsAwesome]

[Lots of Stuff]

I'll definitely agree with a lot of what you said, especially about tight spell slots on 6 and 8 (and 4 when leveling). I do feel the need to say two things though.

1. 12 CHA +2 Capstone +2 Tome will give you 16 base CHA, and then you can cast Eagle's Splendor on yourself to get level 9 spells again.

2. Stoneskin clickies do need to be refreshed, while the FvS DR never needs to be. (Also WF FvS can get up to 15 DR).


The versatility of a Cleric I'll definitely give you though. I assume you play builds like the Cleric 17/Monk 2/Rogue 1?



Anyway, I'll be the first to admit I could definitely improve my playstyle. Based on your list, I'd say I'm somewhere between 4 and 5. I'd be interested in going to your Cleric School, when it starts up.

[Valiant]

Ran into this the other day top house 'D' and seems unknown

[The_Great_Samulas]

I'll definitely agree with a lot of what you said, especially about tight spell slots on 6 and 8 (and 4 when leveling). I do feel the need to say two things though.

1. 12 CHA +2 Capstone +2 Tome will give you 16 base CHA, and then you can cast Eagle's Splendor on yourself to get level 9 spells again.

2. Stoneskin clickies do need to be refreshed, while the FvS DR never needs to be. (Also WF FvS can get up to 15 DR).

The versatility of a Cleric I'll definitely give you though. I assume you play builds like the Cleric 17/Monk 2/Rogue 1?

Anyway, I'll be the first to admit I could definitely improve my playstyle. Based on your list, I'd say I'm somewhere between 4 and 5. I'd be interested in going to your Cleric School, when it starts up.

Very nice point about CHA. I think I started mine off with a 14, so with a +2 tome I wouldn't have to worry to much without having eagles splendor potions on me. I would only add that the difference in my preference for a dump stat of CHA on a cleric and a 12, is 4 build points - ALL the ones you get as a bonus for true reincarnating twice.

I am thinking it would be good to have some FvS input into the discussion sections we will have as well. I have plenty of experience running a FvS, but I think I would like input from someone who prefers them on the panel. I am probably too biased to give them a good representation.

Definitely sounds like me. I'm actually at the point where I can't create a 2nd character that's not an EXACT replica of my current Cleric. Even on Elite, I score highest kill count (even more than the Casters), keep everyone alive and functional, handle normal~elite traps competently, Incapacitate without using a drop of SP. I don't even have my SP Replenishing gear yet, I can only wonder how much more stellar I'll become once I get the SP recovery items.

BRAVO! Keep it up, and try to pass on the attitude! Just remember that beginning healers need more encouragement than criticism. That's why I always pass them consumables, even though they waste so much mana by healing as a first resort instead of their third. You are definately a healer that should be giving those guys advice.

I tried an intimicleric (17 cleric/ 2 monk/ 1 fighter) after my main. Something to think about. He is designed for group work, not soloing, which is what alot of splash builds are designed for.

Ran into this the other day top house 'D' and seems unknown

Not sure what it is. Only thing up there before was the high end potion collectable guys. They remade house D. Haven't been up there since then.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Very nice point about CHA. I think I started mine off with a 14, so with a +2 tome I wouldn't have to worry to much without having eagles splendor potions on me. I would only add that the difference in my preference for a dump stat of CHA on a cleric and a 12, is 4 build points - ALL the ones you get as a bonus for true reincarnating twice.

Saving stat points is always nice, most definitely.

For me though, I would probably put a few points into CHA anyway (on a Pure build), since I am a junkie for UMD.

I am thinking it would be good to have some FvS input into the discussion sections we will have as well. I have plenty of experience running a FvS, but I think I would like input from someone who prefers them on the panel. I am probably too biased to give them a good representation.

I would love to come, but as a student. As I said in one of my earlier posts, I'm still trying to figure out which meta to use when, and I figure your sessions might help with that.

[Anthem]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to The_Great_Samulas again.

But like healbotting, that would just encourage poor style.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Well, I jotted down some stuff concerning the Academia di Curatio. Let me know if you have any ideas that might add to the experience.

Benefits:
-Real-time commentary during practice sessions with immediate feedback from reliable experts in clericing.

-General advice on pertinent aspects to healing.

-Training exercises specifically designed to promote advancement. See the waterworks excercise as an example.

-Possible videos to help others, not directly involved.

-Vent channel to facilitate learning in a private manner.

-Facilitating contacts with veteran players and guilds.

Formats:
-Group oriented play in both raids and quests.

-Discussion groups to discuss tactics, builds, ability use, advancement, and solo play.

Edit: Some initial topics I was thinking of discussing are "Dealing with Problematic PUGs" and "Mass Healing in Raids, Common Misconceptions"

Keep an eye on the Sarlona Forums for organizational details. Thread will be titled Academia di Curatio

[guardianx2009]

How can you be good at all three aspects (melee/heal/casting) if you are a pure cleric? I've been playing clerics since I've started DDO about 6 months ago. I've rolled clerics up to L13 before rerolling to try out different things. I did the 9/1ftr "battle cleric" route, and I currently have a L8 pure caster.

My battle cleric can lay the beat down at the front lines, throws occasional soundburst cc's right in the thick of battle and drop back to heal when things go bad. But he is limited in SP, his cc's aren't great, his heals aren't at full efficiency (non-shield devotion items aren't common) and he's always broke because he's needs the cure wands to supplement his SP.

My pure (14str) cleric is basically CC specced with heighten+(+1 DC) Enchantment Weapon +1wis human adapatability. She can cripple crowds even in quests several levels above her. However, running around with a heavy mace, there's no way she can do much DPS until BB comes around.

So I'm confused, how can a 'pure' cleric melee effectively? Maybe at higher level it's a different story when you have vorpal/paralyzers? I don't know, I'm purely F2P and most of the uber eq mentioned are not easily obtainable by F2P, maybe that's the difference.