The Path to Enlightenment

[guardianx2009]

For good melee ability, you need to start with max strength (Or high, no less than 16)and all levelups in strength.

This is not true.

Good melee ability doesn't come from strength, it comes largely from feats and gear. I don't care if you have max 18 str and all level ups in str, if you are wielding a mace (or your standard issue long sword), you're not going to be impressing anyone.

-Learn about crits and how different weapon types have different crit profiles.
-Learn about improved crit feat and take it.
-Learn about seeker+10 weapons. How using them in your off-hand, they can boost your main weapon DPS
-Learn how you can boost your to-Hit with gear so you can hit more reliably to compensate for using two weapons without TWF feat.

Optionally:
-Learn how you can squeeze in two-weapon fighting feat. So you can use a bloodstone instead of seeker weapon.
-Learn how UMD works and how you can use Master's Touch to gain proficiency in weapons to save spending a feat on weapon proficiency.
-I haven't had a need for it or room to try it, but Power Attack is another feat that's potentially beneficial.

Points in str helps melee, but it's really not the end-all for melee ability.

For what it's worth:
- I recently ran Acid Wit Elite on my then L17 cleric with 4 melees and one other cleric. I ended up with the most kills (60) while the other cleric rounded up the bottom with 6.
- I also ran Devil Assault Elite on L17 and was 2nd in kills, neck to neck with the barb and behind the Pale Master wailing everything.

Granted, life is different when you get to epic, but that's a different story there.

[SirValentine]

How can you be both a GOOD caster and melee?
For good casting ability, you need to start with max wisdom and levelups in wisdom.
For good melee ability, you need to start with max strength (Or high, no less than 16)and all levelups in strength.
Not forgetting at least 14 con (personaly I never go under 16) and charisma, how do you excell both at melee AND casting? (Healing is a natural ability, even with not high wisdom, there's no change to the healing ability. Mass heal is mass heal if you start with high or low wisdom.)


Even with 36 build I can't see it happening, enlighten me please!

I guess it depends on how you define "good". Or whether "good" has to be identical to "best".

A max-Wis, caster-focused build can still, via gear, do decent melee. A 14 starting Str and no level-ups and no melee feats will not make you a max-melee-DPS person, but it's not like swinging your weapon is pointless; you can still make a fair contribution. With a +6 item, +2 tome, +2 ship buffs, and +2 from a Rage spell, that's still a 26 Str. That and a decent, say, longsword, will do only a fraction of a dedicated melee's damage, but it's certainly greater than zero and worth doing if you're not busy casting offensive spells or healing people.

(And there's room for higher via better tomes, +1 and +2 exceptional Str, Profane Str, Psionic Str clicky, alchemical Str, Yugo pots, store pots...)

With a bit of trade-off, you can splash to pick up proficiency in martial weapons and grab some melee feats, maybe Improved Critical or Power Attack. Lowering Wis to 16 instead of 18 frees up 6 build points, too, if needed, at the cost of 1 DC point and...29? SP. It's all up do what you want to play.

Yes, a max-Str, Wis-dumped, full-melee-feat-line Cleric will probably suck at offensive casting. But there's a big continuum of possible builds & playstyles that will work for a Cleric, and that can include good casting and good (but not best) melee.

[countfitz]

I guess it depends on how you define "good". Or whether "good" has to be identical to "best".

...

With a bit of trade-off, you can splash to pick up proficiency in martial weapons and grab some melee feats, maybe Improved Critical or Power Attack. Lowering Wis to 16 instead of 18 frees up 6 build points, too, if needed, at the cost of 1 DC point and...29? SP. It's all up do what you want to play.

This, it's all about understanding build points and their benefits. On a primary enchantment caster, then yeah, DC freaking matters. But on a casting cleric, 1 point of DC and 29 SP for SIX extra build points makes a freaking amazing difference at almost no extra cost.

Plus, if you are already a TR, know what equipment you have planned for the next life, and that ends up with ANY odd numbers in any Stat, then you really have to look into your build. For instance, if you start with an 18 Wis, but have a +3 tome or a +3 exceptional item, then why are you maxing Wisdom when 17 will result in the exact same thing? (Of course, if you have BOTH, that's an entirely different matter)

Also, level ups vs. original build is very important, since 1 point in a level up is 1 point, but after 14, one point in build is 2 or 3 points.

So it really comes down to preparation and planning, 1 mistake can RUIN a build, and you'll realize this FAR TOO LATE.

[The_Great_Samulas]

This is not true.

Good melee ability doesn't come from strength, it comes largely from feats and gear. I don't care if you have max 18 str and all level ups in str, if you are wielding a mace (or your standard issue long sword), you're not going to be impressing anyone.

-Learn about crits and how different weapon types have different crit profiles.
-Learn about improved crit feat and take it.
-Learn about seeker+10 weapons. How using them in your off-hand, they can boost your main weapon DPS
-Learn how you can boost your to-Hit with gear so you can hit more reliably to compensate for using two weapons without TWF feat.

Optionally:
-Learn how you can squeeze in two-weapon fighting feat. So you can use a bloodstone instead of seeker weapon.
-Learn how UMD works and how you can use Master's Touch to gain proficiency in weapons to save spending a feat on weapon proficiency.
-I haven't had a need for it or room to try it, but Power Attack is another feat that's potentially beneficial.

Points in str helps melee, but it's really not the end-all for melee ability.

For what it's worth:
- I recently ran Acid Wit Elite on my then L17 cleric with 4 melees and one other cleric. I ended up with the most kills (60) while the other cleric rounded up the bottom with 6.
- I also ran Devil Assault Elite on L17 and was 2nd in kills, neck to neck with the barb and behind the Pale Master wailing everything.

Granted, life is different when you get to epic, but that's a different story there.

Good general advice there and specific stuff for some builds (sounds like clonk style builds in the particulars). I find power attack and improved crit to be the core melee DPS feats.

I guess it depends on how you define "good". Or whether "good" has to be identical to "best".

A max-Wis, caster-focused build can still, via gear, do decent melee. A 14 starting Str and no level-ups and no melee feats will not make you a max-melee-DPS person, but it's not like swinging your weapon is pointless; you can still make a fair contribution. With a +6 item, +2 tome, +2 ship buffs, and +2 from a Rage spell, that's still a 26 Str. That and a decent, say, longsword, will do only a fraction of a dedicated melee's damage, but it's certainly greater than zero and worth doing if you're not busy casting offensive spells or healing people.

(And there's room for higher via better tomes, +1 and +2 exceptional Str, Profane Str, Psionic Str clicky, alchemical Str, Yugo pots, store pots...)

With a bit of trade-off, you can splash to pick up proficiency in martial weapons and grab some melee feats, maybe Improved Critical or Power Attack. Lowering Wis to 16 instead of 18 frees up 6 build points, too, if needed, at the cost of 1 DC point and...29? SP. It's all up do what you want to play.

Yes, a max-Str, Wis-dumped, full-melee-feat-line Cleric will probably suck at offensive casting. But there's a big continuum of possible builds & playstyles that will work for a Cleric, and that can include good casting and good (but not best) melee.

Good advice. Another caveat is that just because you aren't proficient doesn't mean you can't use a weapon. My main pure uses an epic SOS, slotted with good DR bypass (for artificer goodness), and I hit just fine in epics. Of course, I have lightning 2 and mineral 2 longswords from the old days if I need them.

This, it's all about understanding build points and their benefits. On a primary enchantment caster, then yeah, DC freaking matters. But on a casting cleric, 1 point of DC and 29 SP for SIX extra build points makes a freaking amazing difference at almost no extra cost.

Plus, if you are already a TR, know what equipment you have planned for the next life, and that ends up with ANY odd numbers in any Stat, then you really have to look into your build. For instance, if you start with an 18 Wis, but have a +3 tome or a +3 exceptional item, then why are you maxing Wisdom when 17 will result in the exact same thing? (Of course, if you have BOTH, that's an entirely different matter)

Also, level ups vs. original build is very important, since 1 point in a level up is 1 point, but after 14, one point in build is 2 or 3 points.

So it really comes down to preparation and planning, 1 mistake can RUIN a build, and you'll realize this FAR TOO LATE.

Good advice. Sir Valentine also commented on the benefits of going 16 wisdom instead of 18, which has some merit. It is something you should consider. For me, who did several sorc past lives to increase my implosion and blade barrier DCs, I dismissed the idea after a little consideration. Every point of DC has a benefit.

You also can fix problem builds with lesser reincarnation now, so even if you mess up, there are ways out of it. Also, odd numbers in primary stats for classes can be adjusted to even with the enhancement lines, so the extra build points here still equate to 6 enhancement points, which is a pretty sizeable benefit. Plan your stats according to what you want in your final gear, use enhancements to even them out until then.

[dennison_brillo]

this is great well said

[Vanquishedfo]

just giving this great thread a love tap until forum mods relize it needs to be stickied.

[SirValentine]

Another caveat is that just because you aren't proficient doesn't mean you can't use a weapon. My main pure uses an epic SOS, slotted with good DR bypass (for artificer goodness), and I hit just fine in epics. Of course, I have lightning 2 and mineral 2 longswords from the old days if I need them.

Exactly, you don't NEED proficiency, as long as your attack bonus is high enough that you are hitting. eSoS is kind of a special case though, since having a +10 bonus, it's still +6 to hit even with the penalty.

Also, I carry a stack of Master's Touch scrolls. I could UMD them on myself for 1-handed weapons if needed, but mainly it's to pass them to any friendly arcane (or UMD toon) to cast one me and give me proficiency in a 2-hander.

[Habreno]

In as far as melee goes:

I have a 32-point Elf Cleric. While keeping his WIS maxed, he hits a 34 STR buffed, still 100% able to casts spells and do his divine duties. Even purely unbuffed, he has a 28 STR through gear, base, and tomes alone.
His WIS is a 37 fully unbuffed, and will be a 38 when he acquires a +3 WIS tome. Then you add on buffs and he's hitting a 41 WIS, which is a 15 modifier for his DC's. So between pure WIS and Heightened spells, you're talking about a 34 DC. Greater Focus trinkets make a 36 DC, without any feats or past lives. Bard songs will buff him to a 37 DC as he stands now; when he acquires the +3 WIS tome he'll have a 37 or 38 DC, and that's not including PL feats or spell focus feats.

There's absolutely no reason you can't have good melee with good DC's. A 36- point build could have good melee with great DC's. PL Wizard is an extra DC point and spell pen (active and passive) and other things boost DC's as well.

[Gorbadoc]

There's absolutely no reason you can't have good melee with good DC's. A 36- point build could have good melee with great DC's.

Time is a reason. Boredom is a reason. Moving on to other alts within 20 game-hours of hitting the level cap is a reason.

For someone professing to play a healing-capable class, you're awfully unsympathetic.

[Habreno]

Time is a reason. Boredom is a reason. Moving on to other alts within 20 game-hours of hitting the level cap is a reason.

For someone professing to play a healing-capable class, you're awfully unsympathetic.

I have absolutely no clue what you mean by your last comment. To be honest, playing a divine, I know how difficult it is. You have three reasons there, all of which are valid. I guess I should have said "If you keep playing a Divine at cap, there's no reason you can't have good melee with good-great DC's".

Obviously, if you do not work on it, then it will not happen. It's an Effort = Results equation; put no effort in then no results come out.

[soupertc]

bump for those looking for good advice.

[Vanquishedfo]

yet another bump until devs relize this needs a sticky beyond anything else.

[soupertc]

yet another bump until devs relize this needs a sticky beyond anything else.

I have sent them tons of PM's trying to get a sticky on this. The only reason I can come up with that it's not is that it's not considered "a guide" like some others. Even though most people who have responded to this thread have given it proper amount of THUMBS UPs or replys have come from well established forum peeps or well played Clerics from all the servers.

It really is a template of what people go through from start to finish when playing a Cleric/FvS...but I'll just BUMP it every now and than if I have to .

[Dragish]

bumping this thread cause i like refering to it

[Terebinthia]

This thread needs stickied.

[PNellesen]

I have sent them tons of PM's trying to get a sticky on this. The only reason I can come up with that it's not is that it's not considered "a guide" like some others. Even though most people who have responded to this thread have given it proper amount of THUMBS UPs or replys have come from well established forum peeps or well played Clerics from all the servers.

It really is a template of what people go through from start to finish when playing a Cleric/FvS...but I'll just BUMP it every now and than if I have to .

Well, now that we've seen the new Epic Destinies for Clerics, it's pretty obvious why this thread is NOT stickied - it's philosophy on playing a Cleric appears to be the exact opposite of the Dev's philosophy (i.e. "Stand in the back and Hjeal, ok?")

[soupertc]

Well, now that we've seen the new Epic Destinies for Clerics, it's pretty obvious why this thread is NOT stickied - it's philosophy on playing a Cleric appears to be the exact opposite of the Dev's philosophy (i.e. "Stand in the back and Hjeal, ok?")

I haven't played on the test server but have read a few things on the Beta forums and I'm not convinced DDO's version of Y2K is gonna really happen. There might be a bit of a learning curve over the next few months....but I'm sure in the end my cleric will be played just the same...only with a few more bells and whistles .

Destinies are cool.....but I am far more intrested in the PRE's. I want to see what WARPRIEST looks like. I think with the combo of all the PRE's and Destinies the build possiblites are gonna be sweet.

[dredre9987]

Well, now that we've seen the new Epic Destinies for Clerics, it's pretty obvious why this thread is NOT stickied - it's philosophy on playing a Cleric appears to be the exact opposite of the Dev's philosophy (i.e. "Stand in the back and Hjeal, ok?")

There isnt a cleric ED yet.

[Ginarrbrik]

lol this post is so awesome and true

[Karavek]

Well, now that we've seen the new Epic Destinies for Clerics, it's pretty obvious why this thread is NOT stickied - it's philosophy on playing a Cleric appears to be the exact opposite of the Dev's philosophy (i.e. "Stand in the back and Hjeal, ok?")

This I fear may be an entirely accurate theory presented in the above post.

DEVs! Please learn from this thread and seek enlightenment. When you learn to walk with the gawds the cries of all those mortal barbarian and fighter players will fall away.

The gawds only listen to the prayers of their faithful.