Working rogue / bard?

[salmjuha]

Hi, i started with my friends here a while ago and are generally having fun. Too bad my friends are losing their patience on my constant rerolls. First i made a pure hafling rogue. After unlocking drow i rerolled as rogue/wizard, which is currently my top level char(1rog/6wiz). Playing her was fun but never getting to melee started getting boring.

Today i suddenly realized how obviously suitable a drow was for rogue/bard and how fun it would be to play! Rogue utility, wizard CC spells with extra and being decent dual wielder at the same time! While waiting for servers to come up i just had to start planning him; here's what i've got so far. Please point out any obvious flaws and feel free to suggest improvements.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 8 Neutral Good Drow Male
(2 Rogue / 6 Bard)
Hit Points: 76
Spell Points: 320

BAB: 5/5/10
Fortitude: 3
Reflex: 13
Will: 4

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 8)
Strength 12 12
Dexterity 16 20
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 16 16
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 8)
Balance 7 12
Bluff 3 4
Concentration 3 8
Diplomacy 3 4
Disable Device 7 14
Haggle 7 8
Heal -1 -1
Hide 3 5
Intimidate 3 4
Jump 5 5
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 3 5
Open Lock 7 16
Perform n/a 15
Repair 3 3
Search 7 16
Spot 3 5
Swim 5 5
Tumble 7 9
Use Magic Device 7 15

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I

Level 2 (Bard)
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I

Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Spell (1): Charm Person
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I

Level 4 (Bard)
Spell (1): Otto's Resistable Dance
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I

Level 5 (Bard)
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (2): Soundburst
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

Level 7 (Bard)
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Spell (2): Suggestion
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I

Level 8 (Bard)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II

Please comment on the spell selection. I want to be able to have a CC for as many situations as possible, but some might be redundant, i'm really not sure.

[Thrudh]

Looks really good to me... I have a drow bard/rogue too, and my stat placement was similar to yours...

You'll be able to use CC spells, and help in combat. At level 9, take ITWF (Improved Two Weapon Fighting).

Make sure to max out Spot, Search, Disable Device, UMD, and Perform.... Try to keep Open Lock decent. Always be on the lookout for good Spot, Search, and Disable Device items (usually goggles).

[salmjuha]

Im now level 4 and everything is going fine. Im wondering though, should i take my second rogue level later than level 6? Evasion doesn't feel very important yet, though that might be thanks to running 2+ higher level content with my buddies - enemies really hurt and don't really miss. That's why im playing very backlinish.

[Thrudh]

I'd wait until you have 7 levels of bard first... so 7/1 at 8th level, 7/2 at 9th level...

Seven levels of bard is pretty nice. That's when you get 3rd level spells - Haste and Displacement and Good Hope and Rage are all very nice...

[winsom]

I have a drow bard/rogue/fighter 19th. A Very cool character, but very complex compared to other DDO builds. Not easy to play either. Its very easy to become too "squishy" at survivability, or you are below-par spell-caster, or a weak-sauce melee-damage character, or.. Well. It's just a difficult build that doesn't really show its potential weaknesses at the lower levels.. They surprise you later on.

You will probably need to take 2 fighter levels. Certainly one. You should realize you will not be able to get 18th bard on this character. That should be Ok with you. You won't need that many bard levels to be good at fighting and sneak-attacking. Fortunately for the bard/rogue, the bard gets its best abilities at levels before 16th. The 16th bard level is the last level of spells though, although I decided they are not worth having. It might be worh it for you: Ottos Irresistable Dance is certainly excellent, but you need to be able to make Spell Penetration checks with only 16 caster levels and probably no Spell Penetration feat. Know what that is? It's a complicated build, I tell you..

You will suffer in spell-casting offensive power compared to some other bards. That is OK. They need to have a purpose too, otherwise they would all be bard/rogues ! Accept that and focus on what your character is good at: fighting, buffing, and rogue skills. Ideally you will want try to be good at healing too, and Use Magic Device, and whatever else you can pull out of your complicated bag of tricks.

I notice you took Weapon Finesse feat. That is a potential problem, but not a disaster. I wish my character did not go that route though. Things would be much easier as a fighting bard if my character was stronger and I did not Need the Finesse feat.. I really don't need as much Dexterity as I built into the character, although the Reflex save is nice.

See this thread where I commented a lot about the complexity of figuring out feats and items for higher level play: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202953

Enjoy !

p.s. if you want to play the full potential of this character that means lots of two-weapon fighting combinations of weapons AND perhaps dozen or so wands plus scrolls for Use Magic Device, AND several different combinations of gear to swap into-out-of your magic item slots to minimize your weakness and to exploit the weaknesses of monsters. Today I counted that I only had 10 free inventory slots for looting when I go into quests. I carry that many "options" on my character, because I want to be able to solve just about any problem and I want to be able to fight well in most situations. I also have had 11 or 12 game interface "hot bars" ever since I was 14th level or so. A Very complicated character, I tell you. But it can be very rewarding to play.

[salmjuha]

Winsom, your post just made me consider dumping the whole character. Amazing how one forum post can be so depressing!

Good points all of them im sure, i'd rather just been ignorant and found out later

[salmjuha]

Assuming i want to focus more on CC, not buffs - would staying nearly pure bard, 1rogue/19bard work out when it comes to disarming or will i just lag too much behind real rogues on later levels?

[winsom]

This is the way the game is set-up: If you multi-class you will lose out on some high level power & ability. You do gain some versatility and survivability benefits that are very useful in exchange for being a step or two less powerful than a pure caster at offensive control or damage.

If you really want to be expert at crowd control offensive magic then there are really only two optimal paths:

Bard 20th, so you can get the Capstone enhancement and maximum caster levels. Heighten Feat. Greater Enchantment Focus. Greater Spell Penetration. But also realize that many of the level 18+ monsters are very resistant or flat-out immune to save-based charm spells. In many cases a Sorceror will be a better controller than a bard is, but the bard almost-catches up at 20th level, although never gets the useful Cloud or Web spells, unless you use from scrolls or clicky items (you should plan to do that for Clouds).

Or

Wizard 20th, for the capstone and maximum caster levels. Heighten Feat. Focus feats in Enchantment and possibly Necromancy and Conjuration. Greater Spell Penetration, etc. Wizards get the bonus feats that allow them to grab all of these foci feats and still have room to pick up a Toughness and Insightful Reflexes and all the meta-magics and maybe another feat or two.

I personally think that the Wizard is the better "controller" since they have decent options other than enchantment spells, namely the various Cloud spells and Web. The bard is awesome in different ways, namely being able to buff with song, fascinate by song, and heal very well, if you take the Empower Healing or Maximize feat. Mass Cure Wounds spells are very useful in high level content. It is sort of like the bard's version of what the wizard would try to do with the Web or Cloud spell, that is to mitigate incoming damage. The bard can also fight a whole lot better than a wizard can. A bard should take advantage of this and fight when it makes sense.

The difference between a specialized controller-wizard and a non-specialized melee-caster multi-classed bard is like Day vs. Night. (I have one of each). When my wizard casts Otto''s Dancing Sphere in level 14-16 content, I can expect 80-100% of monsters inside of it to be controlled. When my bard/rogue casts the same spell, without all helpful focus feats, without the extra spell pentration, without the heighten magic feat, I might capture 50% of the monsters, if I am lucky. Usually less, such that I have stopped trying to offensively control, for the most part. I am better at healing, buffing and fighting, so that is what my bard/rogue multi-class does. Keep in mind that for 12 level or so I was almost as useful as a wizard or sorceror at controlling trash-monsters with magic. The game did not punish my weakness yet. The highest levels changes all that though.

You can have a fun multi-classed bard-controller for 10 or more levels though, but the mechanics of the game will eventually catch up with you. You then can try to adapt by sacrificing your melee prowess by respecing melee feats into all the spell casting feats you need -- and then ask yourself, did you really want to play a bard/rogue like this, with weapon + shield, when you could be sneaking attacking with two weapons? You can also do what I did and decide you areeventually not going to be very good at offensive magic, so you adapt to become good at fighting, buffing and healing, chosing to be better at one at the cost of being a bit weaker at one of the others.

[winsom]

Feel free to send me some private messages with individual concerns and questions and I'll do my best to give you my opinion. Seek out other opinions too.

Winsom, your post just made me consider dumping the whole character. Amazing how one forum post can be so depressing!

Good points all of them I'm sure, I'd rather just been ignorant and found out later

Haha, well it's not all that gloomy. You are not required to be the best at all possible options when you have teammates and difficulty-scaling options to help you if needed.

My bard/rogue is not as perfect as I might make it these days, but the DDO games allows for that, and I did adapt her as well as I could so she is a strong character at this point, although quite different than she was 8 levels ago..

DDO isn't rocket science and it is not a competitive sport. Our builds are allowed to be short of theoretical "perfect" (doesn't exist) by some degrees and still have a very useful character. You can be off by many degrees of power in DDO and still have a fun character, but astute players may recognize your character is not contributing as much as he could have when challenged by the most difficulty content in the game. You can care about that, or not care. I am not saying your build is weak. It is not. There are just some things you might want to be aware of and plan to adapt for it, or make a different character.

Lots of people enjoy making variations of themes on different characters in DDO. I know one guy that has like 4 clerics and now a Favored Soul. They are all played a bit differently or radically different.

[salmjuha]

Thanks for all the advice again. Very helpful indeed

Currently im trying to decide two things: Do i want warchanter, which would require power attack? I propably do and already swapped mental toughness(which doesn't scale at all, lol) to piercing weapon spec. What i also have trouble deciding is if i want 2rog/2fighter for those precious extra feats or 3rog/1fighter for better sneak attack.

Also i have no idea when to splash fighter; im taking second rogue level at 9 or 10 but fighter levels propably a lot later.

[whysper]

Check the Bard forum for some more info...the "can drows have cake" thread goes over the Warchanter angle. By and large, trying to do melee, rogue stuff AND some casting will be very hard without some serious gear.