A must read content suggestion thread! Please read!

[Seikojin]

Hi forum readers and hopefully DDO staffers! This post is something I came up with immediately when I saw the DDO unlimited invite for my old account.

I noticed that you guys went from a pay to play service to a free play, but buy ‘extra’ content. A great system, one with a great potential that I am describing here.


What I came up with is a way to add player created modules to the game. I know some MMOs have this option and it is rather flat. But what I am putting up is an exciting way to have solid, relevant, playable, and exciting content to the game that will generate revenue for the franchise and open a world of doors to other modules using the same game engine.

Section 1: The system

The simple idea is make a toolset so customers can make modules that are put up on the DDO store for a point cost that other players can pay to play with. The content will need to be checked for relevance, stability, playability, and cost balance. This would require some test resources as well as content resources in order to pull the high end of this off.

Create a website to show content that has been submitted. This needs a content queue that everyone can see. It eliminates the ‘when is it coming’ questions. You don’t HAVE to have a listed queue showing all the content, you could have a number showing the number of pieces in the queue and a number showing which one is being worked on/reviewed. This makes sure clients submitting their content will know exactly how long it is taking to get to their creation.

After a piece of content is reviewed and tested, it can be deployed to a test server (if one exists), or be put into play to a playgroup for real-world testing (I know from experience the difference between simulated user testing and live results). A schedule, rotating the contents testing could be formed to allow all servers to have the content available for a period before it is finalized and put up into the market.

Section 2: Tools

Tools to make levels should be given to the players so content can be made into modules or packs. The tools need to come in a pack that offers a few things to the users.

The tool needs to have an asset pack. The asset pack will contain pre-fabricated dungeon components, like rooms, halls, monsters, etc. The tool would allow you to drag and drop the pre-fabricated assets into a 3-D volume (akin to many of the modeling apps out there and level editing tools for some games) and manipulate their placements and bindings to make the level complete. Then they can go through in a virtual camera, or a virtual character and place in level assets.

The user can then script all the dialogs and add any other flourishes that are good for the module (like voiced components for the DM to speak, or sound files of their own DMing).

When the user goes to make the module, it should start off with a wizard walking them through some pre-build steps. I believe the best way to manage the hardest aspects is create a module point system. During the wizard it will ask you something like, what length of module (very short, short, medium, long, very long, epic) and what CR difficulty is the module intended to be. Then the tool creates a pool of module points the user can use to build their level/module.

I would suggest that everything costs module points. From terrain, tiny rocks, loot, all the way up to unique bosses that make it a tough battle.

The tools can come with a creature editor, so the user can make it a memorable experience, using the same tool as the character creation system. Each change costs some module points.

The wizard for the tool would calculate and build the pool of module points that are allowed to be used for that module.

There could be different restrictions in the tools based on the users account with Turbine. There could be a free user account level with a limit on the CR for the made module, a premium account with a higher limit, with perhaps some module bonuses, and of course a vip level with some pretty high possibilities. I also think though that there should be a separate level for professionals. One that allows much, much more to be put into the module, this could be a paid subscription creators club type of thing. Paid creators would have almost no limit to their module point pool, and their content would have priority in the queue.

Depending on how much you allow users to work the tools will determine the depth of the content that is possible.

You could even include a series option in the modules so they could be strung together with a big reward at the end.

Section 3: The submission

After a module has been made and packed up, the user should upload the module to turbines module queue. They would get an email notification with the module number and their place in the queue.

If the module is selected to be hosted, the module will have a point cost that is relative to the depth, length, and overall richness of their module.

When received, a module should be internally loaded and tested to ensure it is viable to be released. There will be some test tools described to help weed out the low grade content that invariably would come in.

When verified viable, the process should be internal on if a module should be pushed forward or not.

An announcement board on the forums can be used to list the upcoming modules for test deployment.

Section 4: Testing

Testing is broken into a few parts.

1. You will have an automated verification of the modules. These tools will test seams in the pre-fabs for environment leaks (like having single point objects flood the module and any leaks would be track-able), difficulty balancing, and reward balancing. Any failures from the tools should automatically flag the module as not fit for consumption, generate a report of what is wrong, and the report should be edited and mailed to the module creator.
2. Any modules passed from the automated portion will get a manual seam and path verification. Then a play through and report should be created to be evaluated for the module.
3. Load testing should only be done on live servers. Virtual load testing is in the end not as valuable as real world load testing.
4. The module should be put up for free for one server for a week or two at a time until all servers have had a chance to have the module hosted. During this time feedback should be collected from live users on the module.

In the end you will have end to end coverage internally and externally, and the feedback from the users as well as the internal teams can be given merit in a meeting for the modules to be added to the store for the determined time period for new content (this could be weekly, monthly, quarterly, etc).

Section 5: Deployment

After a module has been determined fit for release, it should be added to a release queue. When the user created modules should be released is up to Turbine. I believe 8 weeks for each release would be suitable and maintainable after enough content is submitted.

The content should offer something to the user who created it. A fixed value or a percentage of the ddo store value should be offered to the account who submitted the content. This would mean that you get DDO store points for content that is deployed.

I think 1 point per cr for a fixed rate, or 1% of the released value per module deployed. I know users don’t think this is a good idea, but I am looking at a bigger picture.

There is one last thing about this system that I think would be useful. But I will keep that private.

[Lithic]

Asked for twice a week for the past 3.7 years... Hopefully one day we get such a thing in place.

[Seikojin]

Yeah, I have made simmilar suggestions for other MMO's as well. I would be willing to donate as much of my services to this as possible to help it get done. I see a big boost financially and a big credability boost from the commmunity and new players if they were to bring something like this forward.

[kaelis]

/wishful would be awesome but wont ever happen optimistic hat on


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/tinfoil hat back on.

Well that was a fun few minutes.

[Seikojin]

Is there something about my post that makes the idea difficult to comprehend? I just want to make sure it is all good.

[Impaqt]

What you describe here would take 3-5 YEARS to deploy.

Cool, yes.. Practical. No.

[Angelus_dead]

Is there something about my post that makes the idea difficult to comprehend?

It's comprehensible... it just doesn't make complete sense.

The major flaw is that if we assume Turbine had easy quest-building tools and a reliable process to check those quests for quality, they'd be able to greatly increase their content output simply by instructing a few employees to go use them.

Thus, creating a system to allow players to submit quests wouldn't be a solution to a lack of new quests. It could potentially improve the game by providing enjoyment to people who like to build quests, but that's a rather different aspect.

[Seikojin]

What about open sourcing the project for the tools? I understand the IP issue, I am thinking there is a way they can offer something up to get this started and going with a more feverish effort from the fanbase to come up witht he tools.

I do see it taking time. I don't think 3-5 years for deployment if they already have module making tools in house.

[Thrudh]

As slow as the devs are to release new quests, I'm assuming THEY don't even have a good toolset to make dungeons...

It appears every dungeon is hand-made...

[Belwaar]

As slow as the devs are to release new quests, I'm assuming THEY don't even have a good toolset to make dungeons...

It appears every dungeon is hand-made...

Which is why they all look so great!

But seriously, as cool of an idea as it to have "user-generated" content, like in the NWN franchise, all the stuff looks identical. The "hand-made" dungeons that our killer team of devs come up with sets us apart, imo.

[Seikojin]

It's comprehensible... it just doesn't make complete sense.

The major flaw is that if we assume Turbine had easy quest-building tools and a reliable process to check those quests for quality, they'd be able to greatly increase their content output simply by instructing a few employees to go use them.

Thus, creating a system to allow players to submit quests wouldn't be a solution to a lack of new quests. It could potentially improve the game by providing enjoyment to people who like to build quests, but that's a rather different aspect.

Understanding the development process leads me to believe that Turbine already has these tools. I know that sound and checking take alot of time, as well as planning and implimenting.

The idea is here. The plan is pretty much here. It just needs coders, testers, and a budget. LOL

[Impaqt]

The devs have stated on several occations that they do not have a "Quest creator" at all.(DDOCast, Ask the Devs and Various Interviews Jerrys done with Dev members) they can reuse some resources, but for the most part, every quest they made is made from scratch.

[Seikojin]

As slow as the devs are to release new quests, I'm assuming THEY don't even have a good toolset to make dungeons...

It appears every dungeon is hand-made...

You can still have tools and make things in a hand made fashion.

The slowest aspect of level design comes from balance and psychology. These two properties are being delegated with this process. Balance is being controlled with a point system, and psychology is being left to the community.

If Turbine doesn't have level making tools, they should get them made. It will make their job 1000 times easier for making new content.

[Seikojin]

The devs have stated on several occations that they do not have a "Quest creator" at all.(DDOCast, Ask the Devs and Various Interviews Jerrys done with Dev members) they can reuse some resources, but for the most part, every quest they made is made from scratch.

That is unfortunate. I can understand a design philosphy to keep less automation to help push designers to come up with unique content.

At the same time, they can create tools that allow designers to create the same content we see each module that save tons of time.

[cipher_nemo4]

Turbine most likely has quest building tools. Just look at how much the low-level "sewers", "warehouse", and "catacomb" motif is repeated.

It's still development time to turn those tools into something available for end-users. But I'm sure some reasonably powerful form of tools was created by Turbine to create these quests so that they wouldn't have to recode everything by hand over and over again.

World and level designers are not necessarily programmers. They typically use tools written by programmers to create quests. The world/level designers probably also use some form of scripting as well (though not actually a programming language).

[Letrii]

I highly doubt they would give out access to tools they use, if for no other reason than security.

[Seikojin]

I highly doubt they would give out access to tools they use, if for no other reason than security.

When WoTC released the SRD for d20, they essentially gave away every aspect of the system save the experience charts and loot formulas.

Creating these design tools would be just like that. You give the public access to make modules, but you keep control of the exp reward formula by locking it into the difficulty system and the loot as well; locked into the difficulty system.

[Seikojin]

Turbine most likely has quest building tools. Just look at how much the low-level "sewers", "warehouse", and "catacomb" motif is repeated.

It's still development time to turn those tools into something available for end-users. But I'm sure some reasonably powerful form of tools was created by Turbine to create these quests so that they wouldn't have to recode everything by hand over and over again.

World and level designers are not necessarily programmers. They typically use tools written by programmers to create quests. The world/level designers probably also use some form of scripting as well (though not actually a programming language).

I agree, it would take some time to fit their internal design tools so the public could ue them. It just seems like a better financial decision to have these tools made that are so easy to use, a caveman could do it.

I am not an expert in coding, but even I can tell how they could make a UI for quest creation that would be easy to use and still give everyone the ability to create unique, rich, and desireable content.

[Seikojin]

One of my big reasons for this system; it would allow turbine to invest deeply into gameplay mechanics, prestiege classes, etc. Allowing the community to do the module development would free them up on many resources.

They could take this further and build loot crafting tools that, using the same point system, allow the creator to make custom/named loot to be available in their quest. They could add a item 'weight' variable to the loot tables (which I am sure already exists) to increase or decrease the chance a named item drops. This way a powerful item would drop less often than another.

In the ultimate end, this would unlock Turbine from being dedicated to just eberron. They could, with these communicty tools, open up different servers for different campaign settings in the DnD multiverse.

DDO would become less of a specific game and more of an online platform to make multiple real time RPGs.

They could, if executed right, make it into an mmo rpg framework akin to unreals engine for fps (or other games as lineage 2 shows).

[Memnir]

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Wasn't a good nor practical idea all those months ago - and the time passed hasn't made it any more so.