RE: Patch 9.1's TWF changes

[Monkey_Archer]

I think you should clarify that you're talking about a FB barbarian, and that there are far better TWF builds.

Yes, this is a Frenzied Berzerker Barbarian... the BEST THF class in the game.

The fact that even THF FBs are so far behind TWF versions in the new system only shows how broken it is....

[BlackRage]

Have you not done enough damage already? Stop with the ideas while you are ahead

[szaijan]

I'd much rather see ALL two-handed weapon damage adders multiplied by 1.5, instead of just Strength. i.e. A +4 Two-Handed Sword would get a +6 enhancement bonus to damage instead of just +4. Bonuses from FE, Bard Song, elemental dice, etc. would all be multiplied by 1.5. Then leave the inequitable attack speeds or even make them worse to balance the DPS. This would not only make up for the difference in per attack bonuses that favors TWF, but it would help make up for the fact that TWFers get to use two weapons, each of which is close to the equal of any two-handed weapon. This would also make THF better for penetrating DR, giving it a specific role in the game, as opposed to TWF which is much better for save based effects like Vorpal, Paralyzing, et. al.

Fix THF by increasing its damage, not it's attack rate.

[Vhlad]

Following your methodology,

TWF before mod 9.1:
15 mainhand hits * 91.5 = 1372.5
15 offhand hits * 78.5 = 1177.5
2 mainhand crits (17-18) * 228.5 = 457
2 offhand crits (17-18) * 189.5 = 379
2 mainhand crits (19-20) * 434 = 868
2 offhand crits (19-20) * 356 = 712

(1372.5+1177.5+457+379+868+712) / 20 swings * 83 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 343.5 dps

After mod 9.1, we have the result of 364 dps. i.e. TWF in this example gained 20.5 dps by the removal of the 5th attack animation and the current distribution of hooks.

If off hand attack #4 was removed from GTWF, then TWF in this example would yield 327 DPS. i.e. TWF would lose 16.5 DPS (from what it was before 9.1) and 37 DPS (from what it is now).

So, let me get this straight. We lose a flashy attack animation and the other 4 animations are slowed down. So now, not only is melee combat more visually boring and less diverse, but some people want to take it a step further and nerf DPS.

I think dev time can be better spent. Reverse the 9.1 combat changes, bring back the 5th animation, and start fixing stuff from the growing list of official outstanding issues (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=150534), unofficial outstanding issues (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=201278), or adding new content.

[ManinBlaq]

One thing I would like to see is what is the dps of THF - without the THF feats, because all comparisons here are not apples to apples.

THF should not 'equal' TWF. I think most people are agreeing with that, though everyone believes that that THF vs TWF margin should be closer [however I don't think we'll ever come to an agreement of how close that margin should be].

So ultimately, I think the investment (of 3 feats) should come to the same effective 'net gain'.

We know what gains TWF, gTWF, and iTWF are; so then what are the gains of THF, iTHF, gTHF compared to a base two handed fighter without the feats? Then using that information we can look at each feat chain - does TWF vs THF (iTWF vs iTHF and so forth) provide equal benefit?

Additionally, a large feature of THF is the fact that glancing blows are based on proximity and chance - rather than an attack roll. This could be useful against extremely high ACs -- but doesn't come up often enough to make it a deciding factor.

Perhaps a more balanced and suitable option would be to ditch the 'free' glancing damage, and implement a system that requires an attack roll (with greater potential).

One idea I was considering:
Base THF: glancing blows make an attack to all creatures in range, it makes an attack roll at -20. Deals 15% damage - no weapon modifiers.

THF feat: -15 modifier. Deals 20% damage - 50% chance to proc weapon (damage) modifiers* - no weapon effects.

iTHF: -10 modifier. Deals 25% damage - 100% chance to proc weapon (damage) modifiers -50% to also proc weapon effects* (such as vorpal, banishing etc).

gTHF: -5 modifier. Deals 30% damage - 100% chance to proc weapon modifiers and effects.

*Disclaimer - all effects of course will be dependent on the appropriate dice roll for crits, effects and saving throws.

Additionally, I think this game has been hard up for lack of exotic two handed weapons for sometime. We need some Spiked Chains - Goliath Hammers and Fullblades up in this mofo!

[Monkey_Archer]

I'd much rather see ALL two-handed weapon damage adders multiplied by 1.5, instead of just Strength. i.e. A +4 Two-Handed Sword would get a +6 enhancement bonus to damage instead of just +4. Bonuses from FE, Bard Song, elemental dice, etc. would all be multiplied by 1.5. Then leave the inequitable attack speeds or even make them worse to balance the DPS. This would not only make up for the difference in per attack bonuses that favors TWF, but it would help make up for the fact that TWFers get to use two weapons, each of which is close to the equal of any two-handed weapon. This would also make THF better for penetrating DR, giving it a specific role in the game, as opposed to TWF which is much better for save based effects like Vorpal, Paralyzing, et. al.

Fix THF by increasing its damage, not it's attack rate.

I think this is kind of what Borror0 meant when he said the changes should have been packaged with some THF love. I have suggested this in the past (specifically fighter weapon spec feats if nothing else)... not sure about going as far as bard songs and FE though...
The giving THF bigger elemental dice damage idea is interesting, perhaps D6 vs D10?

[zealous]

A...bit unclear and inaccurate...

but food for thought nevertheless, will go over it and update/correct when/if I get the time.

[Monkey_Archer]

A...bit unclear and inaccurate...

but food for thought nevertheless, will go over it and update/correct when/if I get the time.

100% glancing blow proc rate is not even close... i think 20-30% for a full spec'd WF barb is what has been reported... so, yeah 8+ mobs for the best THF to beat TWF vorpaling...

this:

Conclusion: 2h dps advantage against multiple mobs is probably negligible.

is definately true.. especially since where dps matters (named mob) you are almost never going to be fighting muliple nameds at the same time (orthons in VOD are about the only example i can think of, and even then protocol is to stand far behind (out of glancing blow range) so you dont take a beating)

[Borror0]

I think dev time can be better spent. Reverse the 9.1 combat changes, bring back the 5th animation, and start fixing stuff from the growing list of official outstanding issues (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=150534), unofficial outstanding issues (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=201278), or adding new content.

Programmer != Level designer

[Vivanto]

If the developers had honestly wanted players to get increased speed/damage by paying a cost in attack bonus, they certainly wouldn't have implemented it this way.

Yup, for that purpose we do have power attack... which would also need some fine tuning but that's a different topic.