RE: Patch 9.1's TWF changes

[Borror0]

need i remind you two what the highest dps 1-handed weapon is on high 50%+ fortification targets is?

9*1.05+1.05x=5.5*1.15+1.15x
9.45+1.05x=6.325+1.15x
3.125=0.10x
x=31.25

I think khopesh wins out. Well, unless your melee has really low base damage.

[redoubt]

Most obviously, there was an exploit to get +30% THF attack speed that was becoming increasingly popular.


Then you weren't paying attention. Not that this change really fixes it, but the complaints were already out there.

If I understand the twitching thing correctly you had to move to break the attack chain, thus skipping the slower animations. The penatly for moving is -4 to hit and you drop back to your BAB instead of BaB+XX.

Please realize, I'm not arguing against the idea of the change, just I don't see the twitching as an exploit. Please explain.

[Angelus_dead]

THF needs some advantage to make up for its lack of versitility:
* No piercing weapons to break certain DR

That could theoretically become a factor in the future, after they release the Rhakshasa Raid.

* half speed vorpal
* half speed stat damage
* no puncturing or banishing weapons

Those are real factors, but all of them have been nerfed by changes, such as monsters who are simply more resistant to that stuff. However, something along the lines of a 2h weapon with double Wounding might be appropriate. And keep in mind that some D&D versions disallowed vorpal on 1h weapons.

* strength requirement to qualify

False. Anyone going for DPS will meet the strength requirement anyway, but obviously the same can't be said for TWF. If TWF Barbs and Paladins were allowed to dump their dex points, they certainly would.

* no defense (PA is a must for THF, turning it off hurts way more then on a TWF, therefore CE is not an option, neither can you get TWD or tempest shield bonuses)

Incorrect. The real defense advantage of TWF is that you can use two greensteel item effects, and also benefit from Tempest and TWD.

Power Attack is not really biased towards THF, because a +10 bonus for 100 attacks provides the same damage as +5 on 200 attacks. In fact, now that TWF has an even higher ratio of attacks, the amount of it's gain from PA is even greater than before.

Note: At this juncture, someone might want to suggest following the D&D rule that PA doesn't help light weapons. That would be a mistake in DDO, and it would just solidify twin heavy weapons as the only valid TWF choices, knocking kukris, shortswords, and handaxes out of any use.

[Monkey_Archer]

9*1.05+1.05x=5.5*1.15+1.15x
9.45+1.05x=6.325+1.15x
3.125=0.10x
x=31.25

I think khopesh wins out. Well, unless your melee has really low base damage.

I did say 50%+ (empasise the "+").... 31.25 is kind of low for a buffed melee, but unbuffed... uh... battle clerics, rogues, etc... might not reach that...

75% fort
9*1+1x = 5.5*1.05+1.05x
9+1x = 5.775+1.05x
3.225=0.05x
x=64.5

[Angelus_dead]

Please realize, I'm not arguing against the idea of the change, just I don't see the twitching as an exploit. Please explain.

It's an exploit: Taking advantage of a mistake by the developers to gain an unintended advantage.

Apparently the devs decided not to punish people for using or spreading that exploit, which is absolutely the right choice for them. But that doesn't change the fact that it fits the definition. If the developers had honestly wanted players to get increased speed by paying a cost in attack bonus, they certainly wouldn't have implemented it this way.

[Borror0]

I did say 50%+ (empasise the "+").... 31.25 is kind of low for a buffed melee, but unbuffed... uh... battle clerics, rogues, etc... might not reach that...

I doubt those builds would have room for bastard swords.

75% fort

We all know how common that is...

[Angelus_dead]

I doubt those builds would have room for bastard swords.

Furthermore, if there was a mob with 75% fort, it is likely to also have enough AC that clerics, rogues, etc have trouble hitting it. That means that any weapon matching a class or racial attack enhancement would be more powerful than bastard: longsword, shortsword, scimitar, rapier, and handaxe.

It's also possible that against those monsters, a longsword + Weapon Focus feat would do better than bastard + Bastard Proficient feat.

Anyway, here is another balance factor to consider:
The original release of DDO included a design flaw: because of the critical power of khopesh, strength TWF and S&B are the only styles that can really benefit from an exotic proficiency feat (well, ranged can too sorta). THF and finesse TWF/S&B cannot. The game balance would improve if a DPS-boosting feat were offered for the non-khopesh styles as compensation.

In the original D&D, an exotic 1h weapon wouldn't give you any better DPS than a scimitar or rapier.

[Monkey_Archer]

Those are real factors, but all of them have been nerfed by changes, such as monsters who are simply more resistant to that stuff. However, something along the lines of a 2h weapon with double Wounding might be appropriate. And keep in mind that some D&D versions disallowed vorpal on 1h weapons.

D&D limitations that we not implemented are irrelevant...
Stat damage was nerfed (yet is still effective) but vorpals were not. Given that vorpals are the best way to kill most endgame stuff, the new changes put THF at LESS then half the effectiveness of TWF in that regard.
This alone is a bigger disadvantage then any of the things you listed for TWF... because lets face it... at endgame, finding a pair of single handed vorpals is not in any way difficult.

False. Anyone going for DPS will meet the strength requirement anyway, but obviously the same can't be said for TWF. If TWF Barbs and Paladins were allowed to dump their dex points, they certainly would.

we are talking style here... not only max dps builds ... dex based monks/rogues can do well without the strength to qualify for THF feats, as can battle clerics, FvSs, or others less dps spec'd builds.

Incorrect. The real defense advantage of TWF is that you can use two greensteel item effects, and also benefit from Tempest and TWD.

yes, greensteel weapon effects is another defense advantage to TWF that i forgot to mention....

Power Attack is not really biased towards THF, because a +10 bonus for 100 attacks provides the same damage as +5 on 200 attacks. In fact, now that TWF has an even higher ratio of attacks, the amount of it's gain from PA is even greater than before.

that extra offhand attack does skew things quite a bit.... but you are forgeting glancing blows and the fact that twitch attacking is still possible (only with less gain then before)

[Monkey_Archer]

It's an exploit: Taking advantage of a mistake by the developers to gain an unintended advantage.

Apparently the devs decided not to punish people for using or spreading that exploit, which is absolutely the right choice for them. But that doesn't change the fact that it fits the definition. If the developers had honestly wanted players to get increased speed by paying a cost in attack bonus, they certainly wouldn't have implemented it this way.

Twitching is not an exploit. It is how the old combat system worked. No1 at turbine has ever indicated it was an exploit to my knowledge.

Constantly moving also yielded faster attack speed then standing still... does that mean any1 who attacked while moving was also exploiting?

[Monkey_Archer]

I doubt those builds would have room for bastard swords.

We all know how common that is...

elementals, portals, golems, some pitfiends, undead, sorjek, etc...

[Vhlad]

It's not really wizardry.

THF used to be 82 81 according to monkey and TWf rate used to be 83. Now, both are identical at 79 (as if they were that mcuh different before. Before, the ratio was 2:1. Not, it's more than 2:1. Therefore, TWf has got a buff and I suggest that we bring the ratio back to pre-patch because THF is way too behind in DPS compared to TWF.

Way too behind? Let's talk about how much behind, specifically.

Looking at non tempest III here,

TWF now has 79 main hand attacks and 98 off hand attacks [177 total attacks], when before the patch it had 83 main hand attacks and 83 off hand attacks [166 total attacks].

THF had 81 attacks before the patch and has 79 after, but now yields 3 glancing blows every 4 attacks.

In summary, after the patch, we have:
TWF gained 11 attacks
THF lost 2 attacks, but gained a 25% increase to its number of glancing blows (which now add weapon procs)

Considering one of the main and unique advantages to THF in this game is its glancing blow mechanic (which is a deviation from pnp), it deserves to be mentioned in a thread like this. Glancing blows turn your THF attack chain into an AOE attack chain, dealing splash damage to everything around you, as well as extra damage to your main target, when you swing. Mod 9 also improved glancing blows by adding weapon procs to them [and for a frenzy barbarian, 2d6 vicious + 4d6 greater vicious has a 100% chance of applying to glancing blows].

Considering this mechanic, it would seem obvious that vs single target, TWF DPS should be higher than THF DPS. But how much higher is it, and is it high enough to warrant twice the resource cost (and inventory space) to double your weapons? And does it warrant having to bring base dex to 17 in a pure DPS build when it could be left at 8 for THF?

Do we have any detailed comparisons for TWF vs THF that factor in the extra glancing blow damage on your main target? Furthermore, do we have any detailed comparisons for THF with multiple targets (i.e. factoring in the AOE mechanic of THF)?

Regarding fiddling around with attack hooks,
According to Eladrin, this is what we currently have:

Dual Wielding:
Off hand attacks on attacks #2 and #4.
ITWF adds off hand attack on attack #3.
GTWF adds off hand attacks on attacks #1 and #4.
Ranger Tempest III adds main hand attack on attack #3.

Monk:
TWF adds additional attack hooks on attacks #2 and #4.
ITWF adds additional attack hook on attack #3.
GTWF adds additional attack hooks on attacks #1 and #4.

Two Handed:
Glancing blows on attacks #1 and #4.
GTHF adds additional Glancing Blows on attack #3.

In post #14, Borror0 proposes to remove off hand attack #4 from GTWF.

If that was done, then TWF would have 79 main hand attacks and 79 off hand attacks [158 total attacks]. i.e. TWF would lose 19 attacks from what it has right now.

It's a straight nerf to the TWF DPS in your party, with no direct gain to THF DPS or S&B DPS, and no re-balancing of mob hp/dps/stats. Is that necessary? Is that reasonable? Do people want it?

I don't think it is. But lets see some numbers. What does TWF vs THF DPS look like now vs. single target FACTORING IN the extra glancing blow damage on your single target, and what does TWF vs. THF DPS look like now when being surrounded by targets. Then, if necessary, we can see what it would look like if we removed an attack hook from TWF.

And based on that, we can make a more sophisticated judgement call on what, if anything, needs to be done. Finally, as a reminder, when talking about THF vs TWF, people must consider:
DPS builds using THF can dump dex.
TWF requires twice the number of weapons, and twice the resource cost to craft your weapon set.
THF in DDO has an AOE splash damage mechanic, which also deals this extra damage to your single target.
A single THF attack receives a greater bonus from power attack and strength than a single TWF attack.
THF was already buffed (25% increase in number of glancing blows and weapon procs on glancing blows, and swing speeds of swords was increased to match that of axe/maul).
TWF (non-tempest) has a -2 attack penalty.
Optimal DPS for TWF requires an exotic weapon feat; optimal DPS for THF does not.

[Borror0]

Twitching is not an exploit. It is how the old combat system worked. No1 at turbine has ever indicated it was an exploit to my knowledge.

It does qualify as an exploit according to Angelus_dead's definition. Do you think his definition is, in some ways, not cromulant?

81 according to monkey

That was a typo. You know, as in "I pressed the key just to the right of 1, which happens to be 2."

In the worse of all scenarios, "Oh no! Borror0 was off by ~1% compared to another very approximative estimation. The horror!"

Way too behind? Let's talk about how much behind, specifically.

While you say that, your post contains no analysis comparing the DPS of THF builds versus TWF builds.

It's a straight nerf to the TWF DPS in your party, with no direct gain to THF DPS or S&B DPS, and no re-balancing of mob hp/dps/stats.

Oh no, the game just got harder! Now I won't be able to run the Shroud in 14 minutes and the gap between melee and casters has got smaller.

What horrible unintended consequences!

Finally, as a reminder, when talking about THF vs TWF, people must consider:
DPS builds using THF can dump dex.
TWF requires twice the number of weapons, and twice the resource cost to craft your weapon set.
THF in DDO has an AOE splash damage mechanic, which also deals this extra damage to your single target.
THF receives a greater bonus from power attack and strength.
THF was already buffed (25% increase in number of glancing blows and weapon procs on glancing blows).

If only any of the above would translate in a perceivable gameplay advantage....

[cforce]

I dont see a difference in grinding...
to properly equip a S&B character you need 1 single handed weapon and a shield.
To go dps, you can either craft an additional 1 handed weapon for TWF, or an additional 2-handed weapon for THF....
Regardless you still need 2 crafted weapons.

Hm. Interesting point, although I think the subtle trick is: the weapon I build for use with a shield when I want all-out defense (+4 Insight, Air Guard) will be pretty suboptimal as part of a DPS pair, where I'd prefer something like dual Lightning Strikes.

[Monkey_Archer]

Do we have any detailed comparisons for TWF vs THF that factor in the extra glancing blow damage on your main target?

Well lets start with the best THF class in the game... a pure FB...
obviously prenerf the THF was ahead...

with 79 attacks per minute:
Greataxe FB: 277.1 dps
Dual Khopesh FB: 349.9


Any other class would have much higher TWF dps ratio...

[Borror0]

Hm. Interesting point, although I think the subtle trick is: the weapon I build for use with a shield when I want all-out defense (+4 Insight, Air Guard) will be pretty suboptimal as part of a DPS pair, where I'd prefer something like dual Lightning Strikes.

I went TWF on my intimitank for the reason Monkey just mentioned: I'll need an additional weapon either way.

I, personally, see no advantage in crafting a weapon that is built for "all out defense" and the loss related with Heighten Awareness IV is minimal and, often, inexistent.

[Vhlad]

Well lets start with the best THF class in the game... a pure FB...
obviously prenerf the THF was ahead...

with 79 attacks per minute:
Greataxe FB: 277.1 dps
Dual Khopesh FB: 349.9

Any other class would have much higher TWF dps ratio...

Some people may think you're biased toward THF (i.e. you want THF DPS to be #1 vs single target). You can help eliminate that kind of skepticism by detailing your calculation (i.e. show your work!). Then people can use your methodology to complete the picture (i.e. calculate THF vs TWF when surrounded). I'm not sure how to accurately factor in glancing blow damage/procs, how'd you do it?

[Angelus_dead]

elementals, portals, golems, some pitfiends, undead, sorjek, etc...

For those who don't know this, here's what it comes down to:
It is easy to create a monster against whom Bastard swords are better than khopesh or scimitar: Just give him 100% Fortification and low AC. But what really matters is that even in that rare situation where bastard is definitively the best DPS, it only wins by a little. Adding fortification reduces the difference between different weapon types.

Against 100% fort, the bastard is a little bit ahead. Against 0% fort, the khopesh is very far ahead. One is an additive increase and one raises the multiplier.

Even if bastard-favoring mobs became dominant for a while, respeccing and regearing to use bastards wouldn't give you much of a perceptible improvement.

elementals, portals, golems, some pitfiends, undead, sorjek, etc...

A Light Hammer is better on Sorjek than a Bastard...

[Monkey_Archer]

Some people may think you're biased toward THF (i.e. you want THF DPS to be #1). You can help eliminate that kind of skepticism by detailing your calculation (i.e. show your work!). Then people can use your methodology to complete the picture (i.e. calculate THF vs TWF when surrounded). I'm not sure how to accurately factor in glancing blow damage/procs, how'd you do it?

I run far to many calcs to do each one by hand... and unfortunatly i havent gotten around to modifying my spreadsheet to show the step by step calculations... but for this case i will anyway...

Greataxe FB:

39 strength mod
10.5 greataxe
5 weapon enhancment
22 powerattack
9 bard songs
1 prayer
----
86.5 damage

Crit
86.5 * 6 = 519 damage

Effects:
3.5 acid
7 holy
2.5 slicing
21 vicious
---
34

Crit effects
27.5 acid burst
27.5 acid blast
---
55


Glancing Blows
42.17 Base ((86.5+40)/3)
21 vicious effect
2.6 other effects (13*20% proc rate)
---
65.77 damage per glancing blow

Total hit:
86.5 base
34 effects
---
120.5

total Crit:
519
34 effects
55 crit effects
---
608

17 hits * 120.5 = 2048.5
2 crits * 608 = 1216
14.25 glancing blows * 65.77 = 937.2

(2048.5+1216+937.2) / 20 swings * 79 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 276.6 dps


Dual Khopesh FB

26/13 Strength mod
5.5 Khopesh
5 weapon enhancment
11 powerattack
9 bard song
1 prayer
---
57.5/44.5 mainhand/offhand


Crit (17-18)
57.5* 3 = 172.5 mainhand
44.5* 3 = 133.5 offhand
Crit (19-20)
57.5* 6 = 345 mainhand
44.5* 3 = 267 offhand

Effects:
3.5 acid
7 holy
2.5 slicing
21 vicious
---
34

Crit 17-18 effects
11 acid burst
11 acid blast
---
22

Crit 19-20 effects
27.5 acid burst
27.5 acid blast
---
55


Total hits:
57.5/44.5 base
34 effects
---
91.5 mainhand + 78.5 offhand

total Crit 17-18:
172.5/133.5
34 effects
22 crit effects
---
228.5 mainhand + 189.5 offhand

total crit 19-20:
345/267
34 effects
55 crit effects
---
434 mainhand + 356 offhand

15 mainhand hits * 91.5 = 1372.5
18.75 offhand hits * 78.5 = 1471.9
2 mainhand crits (17-18) * 228.5 = 457
2.5 offhand crits (17-18) * 189.5 = 473.7
2 mainhand crits (19-20) * 434 =868
2.5 offhand crits (19-20) * 356 = 890

(1372.5+1471.9+457+473.7+868+890) / 20 swings * 79 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 364 dps



NOTE: these manual calculations are slightly different because the spread sheet i use includes crit confirmation rolls... these calcs assume all crits are confirmed automatically...

[Monkey_Archer]

(i.e. calculate THF vs TWF when surrounded). I'm not sure how to accurately factor in glancing blow damage/procs, how'd you do it?

Glancing blows follow an approximate forumla:
(base damage + bonus) / BAB divisor

for GTHF the "bonus" damage is 30... for barbarians i assume the capstone bonus raises this to 40.
for BAB 16+ the BAB divisor is 3

ive estimated a 20% proc rate... not sure what the correct rate is...


As for multiple target dps...
937.2 glancing blows / 20 swings * 79 attacks / 60 seconds = 61.7 dps

So the FB would need to constantly be surounded by 3 monsters to beat the TWF dps

[Borror0]

So the FB would need to constantly be surounded by 3 monsters to beat the TWF dps

I think you should clarify that you're talking about a FB barbarian, and that there are far better TWF builds.