RE: Patch 9.1's TWF changes

[SteeleTrueheart]

Prenerf attack speeds at BAB 16:
S&B:89
TWF:83
THF:81

S&B was faster than TWF? and does this not include the 'hooks'?

[Junts]

S&B was faster than TWF? and does this not include the 'hooks'?

S/B has always been faster through its cycle than every other style, something few people appreciated. Especially when mixed with Zeal, it always ensured my paladin's dps was at least useful. I went from 120 (zealed/hasted) attacks per minute at 16 to 125 at 20 bab before the patch, and now I'm at 118; its a pretty hard nerf to a style that was, well, not exactly threatening anyone.


His number doesn't include the hooks because how many hooks for the offhand are present depends on feats; the number he's giving you is the number of attack animations, which in s/b's case is the numbe of attacks, and in thfs case is the number of attacks, and in twf's case is the number of mainhand attacks, to which you then add 40% of that total for twf feat or no feats, 60% for itwf, or 100% for having gtwf


Unfortunately you now add 125% of base attacks for gtwf, which is the point Borror is making; this is a relative buff to gtwf, due to the extra, nonsensical offhand attack

In fact, as the game stands right now, every twf character is better off putting their best weapon in their offhand. despite the half str penalty, it will do substantially more of their dps than their main hand, due to the 25% bonus in attacks.

Its like having your offhand recieve an extra, stacking haste that makes no sense at all.

[SteeleTrueheart]

S/B has always been faster through its cycle than every other style, something few people appreciated.

Haven't played my S&B character for a good 3 months and had forgotten since I currently only have time to run 1 character (TWF) with the occasional log on of my Monkadin (unarmed with TWF and windstance). I seem to have stuck myself in the mindset of S&B = slow.

In fact, as the game stands right now, every twf character is better off putting their best weapon in their offhand. despite the half str penalty, it will do substantially more of their dps than their main hand, due to the 25% bonus in attacks.

Its like having your offhand recieve an extra, stacking haste that makes no sense at all.

Hadn't thought about that. That definitely doesn't make much sense for your off hand to have more attacks. Means little to me since I have identical weapons, but I do think they need to cut down that third hook.

[Borror0]

[...] then you should delve into the mathematical aspects in detail so that people who respond are properly and accurately informed.

It's not really wizardry.

THF used to be 82 and TWf rate used to be 83. Now, both are identical (as if they were that mcuh different before. Before, the ratio was 2:1. Not, it's more than 2:1. Therefore, TWf has got a buff and I suggest that we bring the ratio back to pre-patch because THF is way too behind in DPS compared to TWF.

[BlackSteel]

It's not really wizardry.

THF used to be 82 and TWf rate used to be 83. Now, both are identical (as if they were that mcuh different before. Before, the ratio was 2:1. Not, it's more than 2:1. Therefore, TWf has got a buff and I suggest that we bring the ratio back to pre-patch because THF is way too behind in DPS compared to TWF.

autoattack was 2:1, twitching it was nowhere near 2:1. and yes we all know you didnt like watching crack babies jump around your screen with a great axe. But that doesnt do anything with the fact that autoattack for the weapon style in either patch is utterly useless

[Borror0]

BlackSteel, the fact that autoattack was so far behind is part of the justification as to why I can say "bring it back to the way it was" so easily.

IMO, the change should have been packaged with some THF love - even if just a tiny bit.

[Hreidmar]

What was broken? Why were there changes made? I never heard anyone complaining about TWF to THF dps. Sure they're different - BUT THEY SHOULD BE. You are going to have different results from lugging around a greataxe than you are from swinging two khopeshes.

[Angelus_dead]

What was broken?

Most obviously, there was an exploit to get +30% THF attack speed that was becoming increasingly popular.

I never heard anyone complaining about TWF to THF dps.

Then you weren't paying attention. Not that this change really fixes it, but the complaints were already out there.

[cforce]

At the risk of opening a huge can of thread-worms, some of Eladrin's recent comments on Monks got me thinking. He mentioned that part of having a decent Monk *relied* on equipment, and as such, they were considered an 'advanced class' -- ie, not the best fit for the casual player who doesn't grind for uber-loot.

Is it possible that the damage gap between TWF and THF is intended? TWF requires "twice the loot" to properly equip a character -- twice the Shroud weapons, twice the vorpals, etc. I was recently considering whether I wanted to go 'bakcup-THF' or 'backup-TWF' with my intimitank, and realized a simple fact led me down the path to THF: I won't have the time to craft *two* Shroud DPS weapons when I want to go into max-damage mode, and I'm better off with a single GS Falchion than a single GS Scimitar and a trash-weapon off-hand.

Perhaps the 'for advanced players' logic applies, and the balance goal *is* for TWF to be targetted at a higher DPS level, *if* you can grind out the extra equipment necessary?

[Borror0]

Personally, I think that single handed weapons and shields should drop more often than two-handed weapons (one handed weapons more often than shields, of course) to equalize the grind between the three fighting styles. (For crafted weapons, like the Shroud's, two handed weapon would require more ingredients.) It does not need to be perfect but enough so that the grind between any of the three fighting style is "close enough".

As you said, the grind can scare some people away from TWF and the only incentive would be that it's stronger.

I don't see which part of it is supposed to be fun, to be honest.

[Monkey_Archer]

shields should drop more often

You really dont play very often do you?

There are only 6 2-handed weapons in the game (3 of which arent any good anyway) ... there are plenty of 1 handed weapons... 1 handed weapons already drop far more often the 2-handed weapons for this reason...

[Borror0]

You really dont play very often do you?

I was talking of a philosophical point of view. The "than two-handed weapons" that followed was important. Smartass.

There are only 6 2-handed weapons in the game (3 of which arent any good anyway) ... there are plenty of 1 handed weapons... 1 handed weapons already drop far more often the 2-handed weapons for this reason...

That's not 100% true. A lot of those single handed weapons are considered junk by most of the playerbase, and should be viewed as such for the purpose of "balancing the loot drops". (Same goes for crappy two-handed weapons like greatclubs.) Also, the main source of weapons at the moment (Shroud's crafting) does not behave in that manner: it's twice longer equipping a TWF characters than a THF one.

[Monkey_Archer]

Is it possible that the damage gap between TWF and THF is intended? TWF requires "twice the loot" to properly equip a character -- twice the Shroud weapons, twice the vorpals, etc. I was recently considering whether I wanted to go 'bakcup-THF' or 'backup-TWF' with my intimitank, and realized a simple fact led me down the path to THF

I dont see a difference in grinding...
to properly equip a S&B character you need 1 single handed weapon and a shield.
To go dps, you can either craft an additional 1 handed weapon for TWF, or an additional 2-handed weapon for THF....
Regardless you still need 2 crafted weapons.

The same works in reverse... a TWF spec characte already has a single weapon to use if they pull out a shield, a THF would have to craft a single handed weapon to be as effective in S&B mode..

[Angelus_dead]

Is it possible that the damage gap between TWF and THF is intended? TWF requires "twice the loot" to properly equip a character

Yes, TWF does need some kind of advantage to make up for the cost:
* Twice the effort to acquire weapons
* Twice the inventory to carry weapons
* Dexterity requirement to qualify (or ranger levels)
* -2 attack penalty
* no AOE effect
* exotic proficiency feat

Given all that, TWF should retain the DPS dominance, at least in situations where the attack rolls and glancing blows don't matter. But changes are needed to narrow the gaps, both in combat effectiveness and item acquisition. Ideally you'd want it to be balanced so that a versatile fighter could decide to use one maul instead of two maces when considering his skeletal foe has both fortification and high AC.

It's actually easier to start fixing the S&B vs TWF problem, because the DPS difference is more obvious, and both styles have the same number of item slots to work with. To begin you'd make the Shield Bash feats into toggles that grant offhand bash attempts on regular attack animations, which would both increase DPS and equalize slot demands. (To finish the job you'd also need to increase the defense, and semi-Evasion would be a clever way to do that)

Looking at that approach reveals a method that can be used as part of the fix for TWF vs THF: allow THF (and ranged) combatants to use their offhand body slot for a buckler, at the cost of -2 attack rolls. That would be an avenue to equalize item costs for THF, as they could then use the same number of slots as their TWF competitors. But that approach has problems both in aesthetics and role priorities.

[Monkey_Archer]

That's not 100% true. A lot of those single handed weapons are considered junk by most of the playerbase, and should be viewed as such for the purpose of "balancing the loot drops". (Same goes for crappy two-handed weapons like greatclubs.) Also, the main source of weapons at the moment (Shroud's crafting) does not behave in that manner: it's twice longer equipping a TWF characters than a THF one.

true, but that leaves 3 2-handed weapons (greataxe, greatsword, falchion) that are considered good... and 8 1-handed weapons (khopesh, bastard sword, Daxe, rapier, scimitar, kukri, heavy pick, light pick) that are considered good...

[Angelus_dead]

I dont see a difference in grinding...
to properly equip a S&B character you need 1 single handed weapon and a shield.
To go dps, you can either craft an additional 1 handed weapon for TWF, or an additional 2-handed weapon for THF....
Regardless you still need 2 crafted weapons.

Your problem is that you're using a false starting assumption: That the character will want to have an S&B gearset.

The reality that's being discussed is a player with no interest in defensive fighting choosing between THF and TWF styles to kill monsters. If he picks TWF, he's going to be signing up for about twice the expenditure in getting items.

[Angelus_dead]

and 8 1-handed weapons (khopesh, bastard sword, Daxe, rapier, scimitar, kukri, heavy pick, light pick) that are considered good...

You used "bastard" and "good" together. Failed...

[Borror0]

true, but that leaves 3 2-handed weapons (greataxe, greatsword, falchion) that are considered good... and 8 1-handed weapons (khopesh, bastard sword, Daxe, rapier, scimitar, kukri, heavy pick, light pick) that are considered good...

Several tricks can be used to make more weapons matter, therefore reducing the demand for some weapons.

Need an example? Whirlwind Steel Strike.

You used "bastard" and "good" together. Failed...

LOL

[Monkey_Archer]

need i remind you two what the highest dps 1-handed weapon is on high 50%+ fortification targets is?

[Monkey_Archer]

Yes, TWF does need some kind of advantage to make up for the cost:
* Twice the effort to acquire weapons
* Twice the inventory to carry weapons
* Dexterity requirement to qualify (or ranger levels)
* -2 attack penalty
* no AOE effect
* exotic proficiency feat

Given all that, TWF should retain the DPS dominance,

THF needs some advantage to make up for its lack of versitility:
* No piercing weapons to break certain DR
* half speed vorpal
* half speed stat damage
* no puncturing or banishing weapons
* strength requirement to qualify
* no defense (PA is a must for THF, turning it off hurts way more then on a TWF, therefore CE is not an option, neither can you get TWD or tempest shield bonuses)

Given all that THF should retain dps dominance....