RE: Patch 9.1's TWF changes

[Borror0]

The latest change to combat in the last patch had the unfortunate effect of buffing TWF. I say unfortunate effect, here, because TWF characters are known to be far superior to THF and S&B characters which both lost DPS in this patch.

Previously at end game, TWF had twice more attacks per round than THF and both were attacking fairly similar attack rates. Now, both fighting styles' attack rates have been (supposedly) equalized. However, this means that TWF have received a straight buff to attack per minutes and therefore to DPS as well. Instead, it should have been THF that got improved in order to close the gap between the two fighting styles.

What I suggest is to change the two weapon fighting feats to behave this way:

• Off hand hook on animation #2.
• TWF adds off hand hook on animation #1.
• ITWF adds off hand hook on animation #3.
• GTWF adds off hand hook on animation #4.
• Ranger Tempest III adds main hand hook on animation #4.

The base hook to the fourth animation has been removed to restore the balance. The additional hook from GTWF on the first animation has been moved to the TWF feat in order make the feat more appealing at lower levels and to make TWF more competitive at lower levels where it lags behind in comparison to THF and S&B. It also helps making 11 BAB less of an important bench mark to a TWF character. Finally, the Tempest III hook has been moved to #4 to add further incentives to complete the chain.

This way, all TWF characters are returned to their pre-9.1 attack/round ratio (except Tempest IIIs which got a small buff).

[FluffyCalico]

Won't work as THF twitchers want their unintended twitch attack speed back and will complain tell they get it or quit.

[eonfreon]

I'm sure your ideas are fine. But you know, I can't help but think that buffing THF to make up for this change before tackling TWF's unintended buff, should be a greater priority.

I'm sure they can do both but I'd rather see how to salvage the dps loss to THF first.

I'm wondering why I'd rather see TWF debuffed rather then THF buffed whenever they put the new patch through (next Wednesday, I hope ). If I see TWF buff fixed before a THF debuff is fixed at this point, I'll really wonder what they are thinking.

I'd rather a buff to THF be a priority rather then another ****ing fix for anither one of their ****-ups, basically .

[BlackSteel]

Won't work as twitchers want their unintended twitch attack speed back and will complain tell they get it or quit.

that has alot more to do with THF than TWF. TWF has never greatly benefited from moving. And THF can still twitch for 15-20% more attacks; altho at a reduced rate of glancing blows, and still a much smaller amount of attacks than previously.

[eonfreon]

Won't work as twitchers want their unintended twitch attack speed back and will complain tell they get it or quit.

You really think that this current attack speed for THF is acceptable?

Especially compared to TWF?

The unintended part wasn't that twitching was required at all?

[BlackSteel]

I'm sure your ideas are fine. But you know, I can't help but think that buffing THF to make up for this change before tackling TWF's unintended buff, should be a greater priority.

I'm sure they can do both but I'd rather see how to salvage the dps loss to THF first.

I'm wondering why I'd rather see TWF debuffed rather then THF buffed whenever they put the new patch through (next Wednesday). If I see TWF buff fixed before a THF debuff is fixed at this point, I'll really wonder what they are thinking.

I'd rather a buff to THF be a priority rather then another ****ing fix for anither one of their ****-ups, basically .

well THF did recieve a straight up buff this last update, in increased autoattack swings and increased proc rate of glancingblows. the attempted neutering of twitch attack was the only weapon style specific debuff to THF. which is sad, b/c it was really the only thing keeping it competitive with TWF.

[FluffyCalico]

You really think that this current attack speed for THF is acceptable?

Especially compared to TWF?

The unintended part wasn't that twitching was required at all?

I think its what the devs intended. My opinion on what it should be is just mine. What matters is they want THF attacks to = TWFs main hand attacks. Right or wrong that seems to be what they want. And this would actually be all fine and dandy if shroud weapons didnt add so much damage per hit on top of the base.

They have clearly stated that twitching should lower attack speed not increase it.

[BlackSteel]

I think its what the devs intended. My opinion on what it should be is just mine. What matters is they want THF attacks to = TWFs main hand attacks. Right or wrong that seems to be what they want. And this would actually be all fine and dandy if shroud weapons didnt add so much damage per hit on top of the base

its not just shroud weapons. I'm fine with weapon effects not scaling. But more class abilities and enhancements should scale like the Kensai one. All the additives to base damage are much more detrimential. Having more actual weapon dice proccing should be the perk of the weapon style, both from more swings and from having two weapons.

[FluffyCalico]

its not just shroud weapons. I'm fine with weapon effects not scaling. But more class abilities and enhancements should scale like the Kensai one. All the additives to base damage are much more detrimential. Having more actual weapon dice proccing should be the perk of the weapon style, both from more swings and from having two weapons.

On this I agree. I think you may have hit on a solution with the feats and enhancements. But your solution is prob more work than they want to do. Giving THF more swings is not the answer but it would be easy.

In short I think twf should be slightly higher single target DPS due to not getting the glancing. But it should not be a huge difference.

TWF should have alot more total swings with both hands combined, and thf should have bigger hits with each swing.

If THF is the best single target DPS and gets glancing then we have a serious problem.

[redoubt]

Borro, can you add into the OP, the total attacks at those points (per round, per minute would be cool too.)

Also, how is this different? Is it 10 attacks right now and you are proposing 8?

Thanks.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Borror0

You should have referenced what the current attack pattern is.

All weapon styles should have the same number of main hand attacks per minute if you stand there holding down the attack button. (Except monk unarmed combat, which is around 10-12% faster. Flurry of blows!)


These are close to the top of "things most likely to be adjusted in the future":

Dual Wielding:
Off hand attacks on attacks #2 and #4. (I assume he means while two weapons are equipped with no feats trained)
TWF reduces the attack penalties associated with weilding two weapons at once, but does not add any additional off hand attacks.
ITWF adds off hand attack on attack #3.
GTWF adds off hand attacks on attacks #1 and #4.
Ranger Tempest III adds main hand attack on attack #3.

Monk:
TWF adds additional attack hooks on attacks #2 and #4.
ITWF adds additional attack hook on attack #3.
GTWF adds additional attack hooks on attacks #1 and #4.

My annotations in RED

Really should get my Monkadin capped one day.

[Borror0]

@SteeleTrueheart: You understood it right.

Borro, can you add into the OP, the total attacks at those points (per round, per minute would be cool too.)

I'm not sure what you mean here.

Also, how is this different? Is it 10 attacks right now and you are proposing 8?

Prepatch, it was 10 vs 5. Now, it's 9 vs 4.

I'm proposing 8 vs 4, which restore the 2:1 ratio we once had.

[SteeleTrueheart]

I think the mix up of when attak hooks land is to stop 'twitch' fighting.

Your proposal would make it more beneficial to break attack chains again.

Why don't you try:

No feat dual wielding: Off hand hook on animation #2.
TWF adds off hand hook on animation #1.
ITWF adds off hand hook on animation #4.
GTWF adds off hand hook on animation #3.
Ranger Tempest III adds main hand hook on animation #4.


ITWF and GTWF could potentially be swapped as well depending on whether or not the fourth animation is available at the BAB you get ITWF

[Borror0]

Why don't you try:

No feat dual wielding: Off hand hook on animation #2.
TWF adds off hand hook on animation #1.
ITWF adds off hand hook on animation #4.
GTWF adds off hand hook on animation #3.
Ranger Tempest III adds main hand hook on animation #4.


ITWF and GTWF could potentially be swapped as well depending on whether or not the fourth animation is available at the BAB you get ITWF

I agree with you that ITWF should grant a swing on the fourth and GTWF on the third. Otherwise, you encourage early twitching by interrupting the last swing that does not increase your damage output. ("Why should my level 4 ranger finish the two last swings when they don't have hooks on them?")

Let me suggest:

• No feat dual wielding: Off hand hook on animation #2 and #4.
• ITWF adds off hand hook on animation #3.
• GTWF adds off hand hook on animation #1.
• Ranger Tempest III adds main hand hook on animation #4.

Same advantages as the ones in my OP except that it lessens the chance of twitching.

[TechNoFear]

I like the idea that BAB has more meaning than just your ability to hit (monk/rogue splash cost attack speed and so DPS).

I don't like the idea that S&B just took a 7.25% nerf to DPS (compared to mod8 attack speeds).

[Vhlad]

The latest change to combat in the last patch had the unfortunate effect of buffing TWF. I say unfortunate effect, here, because TWF characters are known to be far superior to THF and S&B characters which both lost DPS in this patch.

Previously at end game, TWF had twice more attacks per round than THF and both were attacking fairly similar attack rates. Now, both fighting styles' attack rates have been (supposedly) equalized. However, this means that TWF have received a straight buff to attack per minutes and therefore to DPS as well. Instead, it should have been THF that got improved in order to close the gap between the two fighting styles.

What I suggest is to change the two weapon fighting feats to behave this way:

• Off hand hook on animation #2.
• TWF adds off hand hook on animation #1.
• ITWF adds off hand hook on animation #3.
• GTWF adds off hand hook on animation #4.
• Ranger Tempest III adds main hand hook on animation #4.

The base hook to the fourth animation has been removed to restore the balance. The additional hook from GTWF on the first animation has been moved to the TWF feat in order make the feat more appealing at lower levels and to make TWF more competitive at lower levels where it lags behind in comparison to THF and S&B. It also helps making 11 BAB less of an important bench mark to a TWF character. Finally, the Tempest III hook has been moved to #4 to add further incentives to complete the chain.

This way, all TWF characters are returned to their pre-9.1 attack/round ratio (except Tempest IIIs which got a small buff).

If you're going to start a new thread for this with the goal of making or discussing potential changes, then you should delve into the mathematical aspects in detail so that people who respond are properly and accurately informed.

In pnp a 20 fighter with 1 weapon (two handed or sword + shield) would have 4 attacks per round. A 20 fighter with 2 weapons and all the feats would have 7 attacks per round. [and a monk using flurry of blows and twf would have 8 attacks right?].

So, ideally, a thread like this would start off with a table displaying what we have in swings per minute at various BABs for TWF, THF, S&B, Qstaff, & unarmed in DDO post-patch 1 vs what we had pre-patch 1.

Then it would go on to mention that swing rate should not be entirely to-scale between THF and TWF in DDO vs PNP, because DDO adds glancing blows (and weapon procs to glancing blows) to THF, which pnp does not have. And when balancing swing rates for different combat styles, it should also remind people to consider that THF also has a greater power attack and strength bonus than TWF.

Since I don't have all this info, I cant really partake in an informed discussion on this matter. However, I can add that THF did get improved in M9, due to the addition of weapon procs on glancing blows [and in the case of the frenzy barb, 6d6 (vicious + improved vicious) on glancing blows].

[Monkey_Archer]

If you're going to start a new thread for this with the goal of making or discussing potential changes, then you should delve into the mathematical aspects in detail so that people who respond are properly and accurately informed.

He was waiting for me to find this thread

Prenerf attack speeds at BAB 16:
S&B:89
TWF:83
THF:81

Postnerf attack speeds at BAB 16:
S&B:79
TWF:79 +extra offhand (12.5% gain)
THF:79

Relative attack speed loss/gain:
S&B: -12%
TWF: +7.5% (including extra offhand)
THF: -2.5%


THF did go from 60% glancing blows to 75%, which depending on the build, might make up for the -2.5% loss of attack speed.

THF twitch speeds went from 138 hasted prenerf to 118 postnerf (15% loss)

[FluffyCalico]

Postnerf attack speeds at BAB 16:
S&B:79
TWF:79 +extra offhand (12.5% gain)
THF:79

While some don't like the 79 and think it should be 89 I do think they are on the right track with all main hand attacks getting the same # of attacks before class and feat specials. If a weapon style ends up too weak this way buff them with better enhancements or something. If you want to make them all to 89 that is ok too. Just try to keep them equal on # of main hand attacks

[Monkey_Archer]

/signed


Even though i dont have a tempest 3 and dont care to ask for them to be buffed in anyway, I think the extra mainhand attack should be left on swing 3 instead of 4, only because the animation itself looks more like 3 attacks then the 4th does....

[Monkey_Archer]

Won't work as THF twitchers want their unintended twitch attack speed back and will complain tell they get it or quit.

As a THF twitcher i disagree. All im interested in is balance between THF and TWF dps, leaving the perks of each style as a separate issue. (THF does multiple target dps, while TWF does faster effects like vorpal, stat damage etc..)

Twitching was just a messy way for THFs to finally come close to TWF dps. The recent changes have only hurt S&B and THFs (while they, for whatever reason, said it was a THF buff )