Eladrin & Haste

[Monkey_Archer]

Again if you were a thf twitcher your unintended twitch speed was fixed. If you were a non twitcher your speed got buffed and if you were twf not much changed.

Yes the animation speed got nerfed but that does not relate to your attack speed

Almost all styles at all BABs did infact loose actual attack speed.

From an endgame perspective (BAB 16):
-THF auto attack has about the same swing speed that it had with the 5th animation included (81 prenerf, 80 postnerf)... it did not get buffed.
-THF twitch attack lost about 20 attacks per minute while hasted (138 prenerf, 118 post nerf)
-S&B lost about 9 attacks or so (89 prenerf, 80 post nerf)...
-TWF is about the same attack speed (83 prenerf, 80 post nerf) but gained an extra offhand attack (approximatly 10% more dps)


So to review...
S&B got nerfed 10%
THF twitch got nerfed 15%
THF auto attack is about the same
TWF got buffed 10%

[Ereshkigal]

To clarify a bit. I think the attack speed was fine ( without haste ) before the patch.

I simply don't think nerfing haste is a good answer to fix a problem that didn't exist prior to the patch.

I don't think making a change to haste ( which affects all levels of play ) because some people expect it at higher levels is a good idea.

Nerfing haste is... well... a nerf, and people generally will complain whenever anything is nerfed, especially something as popular as a fast combat speed.

The attack speed was nerfed. I understand it's close to the same at higher levels. But the vast majority of your FtP players are going to take a long time to get to level 20, and many may never get there, especially if their only experieince with the game is their starting lower levels. Now we're talking about keeping the new BAB-tied sliding scale of attack speed but boosting it and nerfing haste to compensate. So we did a nerf, then we want to do a boost which needs another nerf for balancing.

To me it seems like we're ending up awfully close to the same destination, just taking a different route. If we nerf haste, have we considered the affect on wind-stance monks? Currently Wind-Stance monks still recieve partial benefit from Haste, if you nerf haste to 15%, the rest of the party gets a speed boost, but monks will not.

That's just off the top of my head. Any time you change one thing, especially something like haste that affects a fundamental game element, many other things that interact with the thing you're nerfing will need to be tweaked. And in turn those tweaks, may require additional tweaks in other areas. At some point this should be analyzed BEFORE changes are made, and a decision would have to be made to determine if what you are gaining is really worth the time required to make all these rebalances. Cutting of your nose to spite your face; is a phrase that comes to mind.

So yea people will complain about a nerf to haste, simply because it's something they like and it became less effective. Most people won't bother to check to see the whole picture, they'll see nerf and they'll cry.

My personal concern is that lately things are getting changed, and there have consequences that surprised Turbine, that should have been easily forseeable. Players have had to suffer through things that Turbine themselves admits are problems, when these thigns could have easily been addressed before releasing this to the public.

I realize that Dungeon Alerts was during the beta, but it was an open beta, and their open beta still had an influence on whether people want to play the game. I like ddo. I like 90% of what Turbine has done. I think Borro is very bright individual. In fact many of the people that have been disagreeing with some of my posts are some of the most knowledgable players in ddo.

Perhaps I'm struggling with my delivery of my message, or perhaps i'm just completely out-to-lunch on this one. It wouldn't be the first time, for either to have happened. In any case, I do hope that before any further changes are made, there is some real investigation done into actual gameplay-feel, and how changes will affect other, related parts of the game, and those issues are addressed before changes are released, instead of later. As I want ddo's population to grow. I want Turbine to make a crapload of cash. And I want to keep playing ddo, because of the incredible variety of ways you can choose to play, because of the combat system that lets you choose what pace at which you want to play the game, because of the great people that are attracted to ddo, etc etc ad naseum ad infinitum

[Borror0]

I simply don't think nerfing haste is a good answer to fix a problem that didn't exist prior to the patch.

Nerf being this strong has always been a problem to me. Thus, I view this as jumping on the opportunity while it's there.

To me it seems like we're ending up awfully close to the same destination, just taking a different route. If we nerf haste, have we considered the affect on wind-stance monks? Currently Wind-Stance monks still recieve partial benefit from Haste, if you nerf haste to 15%, the rest of the party gets a speed boost, but monks will not.

Monks will get a bonus too, to base attack rates. It's not as if they get nerfed.

But, yes, a party of 5 monks will have no interests in a hastebot. I'm not sure how that's really a problem, though.

Any time you change one thing, especially something like haste that affects a fundamental game element, many other things that interact with the thing you're nerfing will need to be tweaked. And in turn those tweaks, may require additional tweaks in other areas. At some point this should be analyzed BEFORE changes are made, and a decision would have to be made to determine if what you are gaining is really worth the time required to make all these rebalances. Cutting of your nose to spite your face; is a phrase that comes to mind.

That is a very good advice.

Most people won't bother to check to see the whole picture, they'll see nerf and they'll cry.

I don't think that will be most. I think most people with the punches.

I think there is a smaller but vocal portion of the playerbase who does not take time to research. You'll see complaints when it's done but there will always be people who will oppose change. It's impossible to please everyone and trying to do that is the road to failure. Stopping progress in the name of those people is, IMO, silly.

Mike Darga recently gave a very good advice to other designers:

Learn to recognize which parts of your game and playerbase aren't important. Your favorite part of the game may be something the playerbase doesn't care about, and there are some players who care about things that it isn't in your best interests to focus on.

Perhaps I'm struggling with my delivery of my message, or perhaps i'm just completely out-to-lunch on this one.

No, you are very clear. Well, at least to me you are.

You also make some very good point, mostly the one about being careful about the consequences of any changes. If you don't think it through nor test it, it might have frustrating consequences that would have been avoided by spending more time on it. Let's face it, it's a big game and seeing everything is near impossible. No matter how good of a designer one is, there will always be time where one will be wrong.

While I can only speak for myself, I think that most of the disagreement come from disagreeing on the weight each arguments has, not that neither of us are just totally off.

For example, you seem to put more weigh than I on the possibility of nerfing Haste having dire consequences or upsetting the uneducated.

[Grond]

Because it is dammit!

On a serious note, should be pretty good to reduce the haste addiction while still retaining the same level of power - attack speed - however it wouldn't really solve the issue on it's own, it's just a derived sideffect of a fix to the fix.

Thanks, I just spent 20 minutes at that site boggling...

Personally I wouldn't mind haste being less 'required.' I don't think that would make people ostracize bards and casters, either, as someone else in this thread seemed to fear.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

You were playing in 2005?! One year before the game was launched?

(They changed everyone's join date to the date of their account's creation.)

LOL. Ok I didnt see that. Pretty cool. Yea I was playing since December 06 like you, on a different account. Started this account on head start.

[pjw]

To clarify a bit. I think the attack speed was fine ( without haste ) before the patch.

I simply don't think nerfing haste is a good answer to fix a problem that didn't exist prior to the patch.

Do combat speed boosts stack? If so, what about, just preventing stacking?

[FluffyCalico]

News flash fluffy, S&B got a huge nerf bat unless you have a way to keep yourself up at the MAX BAB at all times.

.

Lets see level 20 fighter defender yep thats 20 BAB all the time. Lets see pally fighter barb combo yep so is that. Looks to me like about 90%+ of S+B have 20 BAB full time anyway! or at the very least 19 BAB which would only be about a 0.8% drop.

[Ranmaru2]

Lets see level 20 fighter defender yep thats 20 BAB all the time. Lets see pally fighter barb combo yep so is that. Looks to me like about 90%+ of S+B have 20 BAB full time anyway! or at the very least 19 BAB which would only be about a 0.8% drop.

ok, what about battle wizards/sorcs, battle clerics, and bards? Or even a rogue? Or a Ranger who is multi-class and has a decreased BAB?

Are they not important?

[FluffyCalico]

ok, what about battle wizards/sorcs, battle clerics, and bards? Or even a rogue? Or a Ranger who is multi-class and has a decreased BAB?

Are they not important?

They are important and gained other things by doing so or you would not have multiclassed.

[Ereshkigal]

Monks will get a bonus too, to base attack rates. It's not as if they get nerfed.

But, yes, a party of 5 monks will have no interests in a hastebot. I'm not sure how that's really a problem, though.

This is a great example of what I'm talking about. I like to think that changes to the game are made for specific reasons. The monk wind-stance bonus was changed a while back so that it's bonus to attack speed partially stacked with haste. If you reduce Haste to 15% then none of the monk bonus will stack with haste which undoes something that Turbine felt strongly enough about to spend the time and money required to make that change in the first place.

This doesn't make sense to me. If they wanted the boost to partially stack with haste, then there had to be a reason. I don't see where this last patch could have changed the reasoning. That being said, it would be helpful if we knew the reason why they chose to make a partially-stacking wind-stance bonus in the first place...

Of course this is all just theorizing and postulation I suppose. But hopefully that explains my concerns with 15% haste change idea.

[Pyromaniac]

/not signed. Just speed up everyone to haste speed all the time, and get rid of haste. That way we really, really don't need arcane casters and now gimped melee bards anymore.

[Slugitt]

Simple fact. Eventually they will implement something that will make people quit. Wether it be this, or something else, it is the way of an MMO. That's why I got other MMO's lined up in the future. How they do things will determine when this will happen.

Another is majority of the forum folks are not a majority of the game. Most people will rather play then post, so to think your complaints are a stampede of angry people is funny.

Always remember Karma, even if you don't believe in it, it will still believe in you!

[Borror0]

This doesn't make sense to me. If they wanted the boost to partially stack with haste, then there had to be a reason. I don't see where this last patch could have changed the reasoning. That being said, it would be helpful if we knew the reason why they chose to make a partially-stacking wind-stance bonus in the first place...

There is no reason to, really. It's probably just that way for historical reasons and maybe to help the monks pre-haste.

The only way that this affects monks is that it makes them les reliant on hastebots and better soloers. While one is a good thing, it won't change but rather everyone will gain some of it. As for being good soloers, they'll just get better. Even if it breaks the "solo balance" in DDO, I won't cry over it because it's already extremely broken. Most people won't realize that it's broken furthermore and the few that do will most likely not care.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

since low level combat is so slow and haste is required more at low levels - how about adding some new static bound items (e.g. from korthos end quests - or perhaps WW or harbor ones) that give 5% or 10% melee alacrity (does not stack with haste)

That would bridge the gap at low levels until people start to group with casters.

Garth

[smatt]

ok, what about battle wizards/sorcs, battle clerics, and bards? Or even a rogue? Or a Ranger who is multi-class and has a decreased BAB?

Are they not important?

No...

[szaijan]

Don't screw with haste, if you think you have a outcry now, mess with haste in any way other than giving it a boost, and you will have an equal or worse situation than you have now. ( Just don't make haste required either, like you have with this past patch)

I disagree. While the DDO community has proven we will wail loudly about pretty much anything, Haste is way too important currently. So long as the total attack speed remains the same, screw with Haste all you like.

[KKDragonLord]

Didn't we discuss this already?
In a thread Eladrin has actually been active in, no less...

[Ranmaru2]

No...

I'll keep that in mind the next time I see Dr House trying to join an lfm

[Ereshkigal]

There is no reason to, really. It's probably just that way for historical reasons and maybe to help the monks pre-haste.

The only way that this affects monks is that it makes them les reliant on hastebots and better soloers. While one is a good thing, it won't change but rather everyone will gain some of it. As for being good soloers, they'll just get better. Even if it breaks the "solo balance" in DDO, I won't cry over it because it's already extremely broken. Most people won't realize that it's broken furthermore and the few that do will most likely not care.

There had to be a reason, as they made a change. Initially the wind stance boost completely stacked with haste. then they changed it so that it would only partially stack with haste in a patch. I do not believe they did this for no reason. answer rejected, not good enough.

[Borror0]

Initially the wind stance boost completely stacked with haste.

Incorrect. Previously, Wind Stance did not stack with Haste.

In response to the volume of complaints about Wind Stance not having close to no use, since players are hasted most of the time, a part of the bonus was changed to a Insight bonus. That is why I said the remaining Enhancement bonus of Wind Stance may still be there only for historical reasons, or because they want monks to be good soloers in spite of their usually low DPS (in which case this won't change in a negative way would Haste be "nerfed").