BAB Speed in Patch 1

[Helstrom]

The whole time I played last night, I thought I was experiencing some major lag as my character was swinging so slowly with every attack. I logged off after playing less than an hour because it was just so annoying to be moving so slow.

I thought - with all the new people on, it must be creating quite a bit of lag.

But if this is the way that attacking is going to be from this point forward, there is really no need to keep playing.

I'll just take my subscription elsewhere, while Dev's keep inventing more ways to make this game suck until there is no player base.

* gives a big thumbs up to all the testing that was put into this change.

[Vua]

As I said in the original post, its not so much the slowness of us that bugs me so much. I like the concept...

My bigest issue is that Mobs have not been effected by this change and they attack the same speed they always have. If WE need to be rebalance, so do the mobs. Its the Incredible differenctial between players and mobs that is my biggest gripe.

Please don't scare me like this. They may decide this is a good compromise. I understand it hurts more that they swing the same while we swing slower, but I just can't play the game swinging this slow. It almost hurts to swing like this. I want to keep playing this game and if they slow down the mobs we'll basically have turn based combat. We could get that in any other game out there and have large amounts of content to play with our bad combat.

[eonfreon]

I understand the anger perfectly but, what do you want Turbine to do? Rush and announce a change within less than 24 hours?

It would be irresponsible to do so. Give them at least 24 hours to decide on what to do.

I understand, but it was pretty irresponsible to make a change without any announcement within 24 hours like they already did. You know, when they decided this would be a good idea without telling us what they were doing at all.

And what would be "irresponsible" about going back to how it was UNTIL they figure it out? "Irresponsible" to whom and what exactly? So what is the "responsible" thing to do? Can you please tell me how it would be "irresponsible" to switch back to how it was and actually playtest this amongst themselves. I am not their playtester, I am a paying customer. I play to have fun not to constantly figure out how to deal with more and more changes and give them feedback.

I like challenge. This has nothing to do with challenge. I'm actually rather fine, I've jumped on during lunch for a bit and I've already made adjustments. Namely I'm constantly clicking auto-attack on and off. I never used Auto-attack (except in the Raids when holding down the mouse was conterproductive- I'm just standing there swinging anyway) so imagine my surprise now that every time I kill a MOB I get the "Target is out of Range". LOL. Darn right he's "out of range" his soul's been sent to Hades. LOL.

Heck, my 18th Lvl Pally's fine, I've got Zeal and a million haste pots.

Last night I logged on my Lowbie to play with an old bud who's back as f2p. It was so incredibly boring.

I'm usually more then willing to give them time and the benefit of the doubt. This change, as is, is too flawed to be fixed "soon(tm)". So, I don't know what to expect Turbine to do. But I am giving them feedback. My feedback is "this is stupid, even if it's just perception (although my lowbie's attacks are not just slower in perception, they certainly seem to actually slower)".

But I would like to know what you consider "responsible" about this unannounced change, sir? And why would it be irresponsible to listen to their player base and do something soon and not soon(tm).

The combat system's similarities to FPS is what initially attracted me to the game. When I want to play a turn based game I play a Board Game. If their idea is that is should have more of a turn based "feel", that's fine, it's their game to make the rules, and it's not like they have to cater to my wants.

As for me, I'll give it a chance, but while they scramble to deal with their latest faux pas, I will have less and less desire to play and give them "feedback".

[Borror0]

I understand, but it was pretty irresponsible to make a change without any announcement

If I was in charge of player relation, I would make sure that any change that will great affect players is explained a week or more before actually being implemented so that players understand what it is will consist of and how it will affect them.

Sadly, I am working not for Turbine.

And what would be "irresponsible" about going back to how it was UNTIL they figure it out?

It could be irresponsible, and it would most definitively be if decided in less than 24 hours.

While it's possible that it's a smart decision, it takes more than 8 hours to come up with an estimate of the impact.

As you know, any change made to the game, even reverting a change to how it previously was, has a cost. It's rather unlikely that the subscriber loss would outweigh the cost of asking your employees to undo the change only to then, a few days later, add the definitive solution to the problem. It also look bad, professionally speaking. It's not a decision you should take lightly.

[Ulurjah]

"The key issue with that thread then is that some idiot in Turbine could well take it as a 'balanced' reaction from the playerbase, with some liking the changes and some not."

I don't see everyone hating the changes.

Congratulations, you just validated his point for him. His point, by the way, was that Borror0 made his big "oh look, MY SUGGESTION GOT IN THE GAME. LOOK AT ME. I'M A FORUM STAR AND THE DEVS LISTEN TO ME!!! HA ALL YOU SUCKERS SUCK!" post when the patch notes went up. This was before the servers were up.

Then a bunch of people showed up and went "cool, this looks great" because the patch notes were very misleading. When I read the patch notes, I got the impression that the attack speed would start where it used to, and only go up from there. What they really did was severely nerf attack speed, and you end up almost where you used to.

So, the first part of the thread is people reacting to the patch notes, without having played the game with the changes. As soon as the servers come up and people actually get in game to see what really happened, that thread turns decidedly negative and stays that way (Aside from Borror0 valiantly defending it most of the day yesterday in there).

I don't think it's fair all the criticism that Borr is taking ... but then again, he was awful quick with the "look at me look at me" post when the patch notes got posted. I guess he kind of made his own bed with this one.

I understand the anger perfectly but, what do you want Turbine to do? Rush and announce a change within less than 24 hours?

It would be irresponsible to do so. Give them at least 24 hours to decide on what to do.

You mean like how they rushed this great change of yours out the door without any testing or notice?

Dont worry about your FvS. Divine power bumps your BAB up to your class level.
(So does Madstone BTW, Great reason to get those boots on everyone)

Actually items and spells that give a BAB bonus are no longer accurate. They no longer do anything other than give a +attack bonus. Another "hidden stealth nerf™" brought to you courtesy of Turbine. I have no idea why I thought they would be any different here than they were a decade ago in Asheron's Call. They never learn.

If I was in charge of player relation, I would make sure that any change that will great affect players is explained a week or more before actually being implemented so that players understand what it is will consist of and how it will affect them.

Sadly, I am working not for Turbine.

If you want to work for Turbine, you could maybe put in an application? Being a world class forum star (troll?) and celebrating prematurely because your suggestion was implemented, then belligerently defending it despite overwhelming public opposition ... while very similar to the sort of tactics displayed by actual Turbine employee's ... probably isn't going to get you a job offer. You probably have to actually send in a resume and apply if you want to work for them.

[NXPlasmid]

First of all, this isn't game breaking and personally I am not even sure it's bad. I leveled a barbarian to lvl3 last night switching between thf and twf and yes it was a little slow but I was still able to kill everything and get through just fine. I think this new system exaserbates another change that was less noticable before, getting intterupted, with the slower attack speed that seems to happen more (at least to me).

However, on my lvl18 monk the new system is MUCH MUCH BETTER, before I would see a string of attacks and then a pause and then a string of attacks, now it is a continuous stream. MUCH BETTER. I also would like to vote against major downtime over the weekend to fix something that really isn't that bad and everyone knows it's going to be tweaked as Eladrin has already said as much...

[eonfreon]

Sadly, I am working for Turbine.

Don't be sad, don't despair. There are support groups for that condition.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

But I hear you. But this whole thing "looks bad" already.

The idea that we'll have to wait another 2 weeks for them to tweak something again......
Well, I'm glad that I'm going to be too busy the next 2 weeks to play much to really care.
Oh well, I didn't really feel like m=playing any lowbie's anyway.
My buddy's f2p at the moment, so he don't really care when and if I'll get around to playing with him. He liked the game a lot before, he can wait however it'll take for Turbine to "responsibly" fix this junk.

[Skaghar]

I think the thing I hate most about the change is the kobold shamans.... let me explain...

*runs up to shaman, starts swing*
*shaman hits me for 10 fire damage, then jumps backward*
*finally finishes swinging* "oh look, he hit me for 10 damage then jumped backward out of my swing range..."

Rinse, repeat endlessly, or until I can get them to finally jump themselves back into a corner. Nothing like a level 5 dying on a level 3 quest because the shamans jump backward faster than I swing. Way to break things.

Also, I don't know if I was just imagining it, but my Barbarian with BaB of 3 swings his 2 handers much faster than my duel wield rogue with 4 BaB...

[Impaqt]

I think the thing I hate most about the change is the kobold shamans.... let me explain...

*runs up to shaman, starts swing*
*shaman hits me for 10 fire damage, then jumps backward*
*finally finishes swinging* "oh look, he hit me for 10 damage then jumped backward out of my swing range..."

Rinse, repeat endlessly, or until I can get them to finally jump themselves back into a corner. Nothing like a level 5 dying on a level 3 quest because the shamans jump backward faster than I swing. Way to break things.

Also, I don't know if I was just imagining it, but my Barbarian with BaB of 3 swings his 2 handers much faster than my duel wield rogue with 4 BaB...

Mobs still get to be Twitch Real Time Gamers...... We Dont......

[SableShadow]

I like what appears to be the intent of the 9.1 changes: soften some of the build breakpoints. Apparently at lower levels the attack speed takes away from the real time feeling, so it needs some work.

[NXPlasmid]

I like what appears to be the intent of the 9.1 changes: soften some of the build breakpoints. Apparently at lower levels the attack speed takes away from the real time feeling, so it needs some work.

OMG***BBQ!! a reasonable statement! Blaspheme! DOOM!!!

[SableShadow]

OMG***BBQ!! a reasonable statement! Blaspheme! DOOM!!!

I also think they should use dex (fractionally) as a bump to attack rate, and int (also fractionally) to add to crit threat range...basically, work down the stat list so everything adds *something* directly to combat to cut down on the min/maxing a bit.

[Kza]

This is the most boring change of the game since beta days. Logged on planned for a full day of play. Stopped after 20 min.

Seriously from the most fun combat experience of all mmos, fast and fun! To be extremely sloow and boring?

I thought this game was meant to have a real time feel of the combat.

From so happy for this mod to this totally uncalled change?

This turn for the game was nothing i ever had even thought of.

[dopey69]

I'm going to be blunt here. If you're talking about the thread that you started Borror0 where you took credit for the changes, and we had a whole bunch of people eulogizing the changes before they'd even tried them out, the one *big* problem with that thread is that it starts out with a lot of vapidly positive comments about the changes.

Its only later on in the thread, once people actually you know, played the **** game with the changes, that they realised what a major disaster this patch was.

The key issue with that thread then is that some idiot in Turbine could well take it as a 'balanced' reaction from the playerbase, with some liking the changes and some not.

Such an interpretation would be disastrous.

Far better to have a thread like this one that starts on topic, and succinctly tells Turbine that they screwed up.

Impaqt is right; if the mobs were reduced in speed, then the change might be bearable (even then, its still a dramatic reduction in twitch requirements from players and goes against one of the big strengths of ddo).

Turbine didn't just drop the ball on this one; this patch has too many changes in it to be considered a post-mod 9 quick fix. They have deliberately released a major set of gameplay changes without getting any QA feedback. The goodwill that they got when we all discovered they were suing Atari is rapidly being destroyed by moves like the changes to the store-bought bags, and this change around combat.

The changes were unnecessary and they are harming the game. They need to be reverted out quickly, and Turbine needs to consider implementing a mandatory requirement that it QAs gameplay changes like this on beta servers before they're ever released in production.

/signed

[Emili]

I think the thing I hate most about the change is the kobold shamans.... let me explain...

*runs up to shaman, starts swing*
*shaman hits me for 10 fire damage, then jumps backward*
*finally finishes swinging* "oh look, he hit me for 10 damage then jumped backward out of my swing range..."

Rinse, repeat endlessly, or until I can get them to finally jump themselves back into a corner. Nothing like a level 5 dying on a level 3 quest because the shamans jump backward faster than I swing. Way to break things.

Also, I don't know if I was just imagining it, but my Barbarian with BaB of 3 swings his 2 handers much faster than my duel wield rogue with 4 BaB...

Wait till you have five or six of them hopping around you because the wizard(now dead) agro'd and ran them back to you.

I was in Catacombs alone on elite last night on my lvl 6 twf favored soul and the skeles hopping around drove me bloody nutz... what's worse is all I could do is hop around also... I jump in swing - opps they jumped back, I jump back when they come swinging at me ... made for some pretty long boring ****...

... now the real hard part was I got one of those skele knight types - who I think did not scale right - he kept hitting me for 50-75 a swing, while when I countered back ... swoooooossssshhhhhh (in what you call those pro sport thingys - Replays?) .... Mmmmiiiiiiisssss, then Clank back from him dam he's quick! (75hp damage! OMG! ) Ouchie! MOMMY! run away .... oh after about 15+ csw pots and half a mana bar I did manage to kill this silly CR5 skele warrior knight type but fun? No was not at all.

[Sohryu]

As much as I want to buy and play a Favored Soul ATM, the thought of leveling it up makes me *shudder* because of these changes.

As bored as I am with my level 20 character already ("yay we beat the raid, now I get to go back to grinding raid gear and SoS runes and new rings, YAY! ...not..."), I simply cannot bring myself to play any of my lowbies at the moment, even my healing classes because I still like swinging a weapon on them.

They've gone and made the BEST part of their game easily one of the most frustrating and infuriating. What kind of company goes and messes with the BEST part of their product?

[bandyman1]

/signed.


Stupiest. Change. Ever.

Regardless of how it is being justified or explained by Borr or Eladrin, this fact remains;

Low-mid levels of this game are no longer fun.

The combat is the selling point of DDO for **** near everyone here. So...you decide to kill it. Great idea .



If I wanted turn-based combat, I'd simply wait for the release of NwN. After all, it's a pretty safe bet that it will contain more content at release, than EU contains 3 years after release.

* sighs * KoTOR is looking better all the time. Thanks Turbine, for taking a game that used to be the best out there, dumbing it down at every oppertunity, and generally prisongang raping my favorite RPG I guess.

[Vivanto]

If I wanted turn-based combat, I'd simply wait for the release of NwN. After all, it's a pretty safe bet that it will contain more content at release, than EU contains 3 years after release.

NwN 4th ed. No deal

[ogboot]

I've kinda felt like the game got too easy since beta. Chars should NOT be able to solo some of the content for example. I'm kind of for something that slows char dmg down some...

[brlftz]

/signed a million times over.

i still got the same results overall on my new fvs, seems like i still killed things just fine (and enjoyed running korthos on my fvs using a great axe on zombies, figuring my 3rd swing at least will always hit), but **** was it boring.