How would you fix the new combat system?

[Aerendil]

Correct me if im wrong, but if i remeber correctly, attacks per round increased every 5 BAB in pnp (like the old system)? In which case there was no difference in attack per round between a lvl 20 rogue (BAB 15) and a lvl 20 fighter (BAB 20)

Mostly correct, yes. The pure BAB classes generally ended up with an extra attack. At level 20, it would be:
- Fighter = +20/+15/+10/+5
- Rogue = +15/+10/+5

Still, tying BAB to speed of attacks seems irrevocably unusual. Anyone in D&D could grab two shortswords, get hasted, and swing incredibly fast. But it was their BAB that determined whether or not they could hit the broad side of a barn.

BAB tied to # of attacks and attack bonus - fine. That's as per PnP rules. But speed? No.
That should be determined solely by the weapon your using (i.e. a conversation of "initiative" and "weapon speed" from the PnP rules).

[Missing_Minds]

I see no reason to base the attackspeed on your bab.
Having current bab 20 attackspeed all the way from bab 1 would imo be better.

It is honestly more representative what we deal with in table top. BAB, the more you have the more attacks you get. Up to a max of 4 attacks. No one ever really stopped to think that BAB is another way you are getting faster with your attack and then hey... you are actually fast enough now to attack twice in that same time period.

So it makes sense to make the speed of attacks tie into your BAB.

This is why a melee class should attack faster than a rogue, than a multi classer, an arcane, etc.

Still, tying BAB to speed of attacks seems irrevocably unusual. Anyone in D&D could grab two shortswords, get hasted, and swing incredibly fast. But it was their BAB that determined whether or not they could hit the broad side of a barn.

No, it doesn't. And in 3.5 sure they could.. but you know what? Haste only gave you 1 extra attack, not two, and it was at your highest BAB. The blance of the mobs to PC was such that BAB did matter a lot. But this isn't PnP with a small group of people. This is a video game with 1,000s of them. Things were goign to change, they did change, and they will continue to change.

To answer the question of the thread... There is only one change I'd do. I'd make the Moblity feat grant a 10% attack speed increase in attacking when in motion. The transition from PnP to video game killed the advantages of having the feat. Make it useful vs. rather useless. I mean in real life, it is harder to accurately attack while running around.

[Emili]

While my battlewizards and rogue agree here, it does make some sense that the more skilled combat classes would be able to attack faster, due to training or whatnot...

So far ive noticed approximately a 1 attack per minute increase per BAB (unhasted)
i think they could half this to 1 attack every 2 BAB instead, and increase the low BAB attack speeds.

That I agree with, BaB attack rates were to mimic the BaB attack rates from DnD. That had always been a main contribution to characters source of damage output in PnP along with the To-Hit... and why the rogue being 3/4 is offset with SA abilities and so forth.

The base rate of 75 + (BaB/2) is within reason I think.

Mostly correct, yes. The pure BAB classes generally ended up with an extra attack. At level 20, it would be:
- Fighter = +20/+15/+10/+5
- Rogue = +15/+10/+5

Still, tying BAB to speed of attacks seems irrevocably unusual. Anyone in D&D could grab two shortswords, get hasted, and swing incredibly fast. But it was their BAB that determined whether or not they could hit the broad side of a barn.

BAB tied to # of attacks and attack bonus - fine. That's as per PnP rules. But speed? No.
That should be determined solely by the weapon your using (i.e. a conversation of "initiative" and "weapon speed" from the PnP rules).

Actually that has to do with speed...

Round (Time) = broken by segments roll your dice to hit - fighter gets four attacks in the same time rogue gets three
- Fighter = +20/+15/+10/+5
- Rogue = +15/+10/+5

Initiative is who goes first (swings, moves what or not) weapon speed is part of segment adjust...

[smatt]

It is honestly more representative what we deal with in table top. BAB, the more you have the more attacks you get. Up to a max of 4 attacks. No one ever really stopped to think that BAB is another way you are getting faster with your attack and then hey... you are actually fast enough now to attack twice in that same time period.

So it makes sense to make the speed of attacks tie into your BAB.

This is why a melee class should attack faster than a rogue, than a multi classer, an arcane, etc.



No, it doesn't. And in 3.5 sure they could.. but you know what? Haste only gave you 1 extra attack, not two, and it was at your highest BAB. The blance of the mobs to PC was such that BAB did matter a lot. But this isn't PnP with a small group of people. This is a video game with 1,000s of them. Things were goign to change, they did change, and they will continue to change.

To answer the question of the thread... There is only one change I'd do. I'd make the Moblity feat grant a 10% attack speed increase in attacking when in motion. The transition from PnP to video game killed the advantages of having the feat. Make it useful vs. rather useless. I mean in real life, it is harder to accurately attack while running around.

And while I know this isn't real life...... You would also get less attacks while trying to move at the same time a swinging in MOST cases.... I think they were tryign to address what they consider a problem... Breakign the attack progression animation change which was directly relating to attacks. By removing the dirct correlation between the number of actual attacks and the animations we see, it gives them the abilty to remove this tactic... Unfortuantely, as we have seen, this has had some unitended consequences, as its the case quite often in this game.

[poonce]

If its working, its not broken.

Maybe everyone just needs to get used to it, we have been playing with the faster attacks and Infinate Haste for so long that everyone thinks that it should be exactly the way it was, I bet in a couple weeks, people wont even really care about the attack speed because everyone will be used to it just like they were last week, Just give it some time imo, lets see how it plays out. the game is nowhere near broken, just take it for what it is and try to have fun with it.

[Monkey_Archer]

If its working, its not broken.

the same could be said about the old system...
it wasnt a change made to "fix" anything, but rather improve the combat system based on feedback (from "certain" people )

IMO, the theory was sound, but the chosen implementation was slightly flawed.

[Mercules]

That about sums it up.
/signed.

Although, and alternative (that doesn't screw over our casters out there, like me) would be to base the attack speed on LEVEL rather than BAB. Just a thought.

Um... No...

BAB is one of those "Balance" things between classes and Single/Multi-class. Classes traditionally good at combat get BAB increases every level(4/4), those secondary fighting classes 3/4, and those traditionally poor combatants 2/4. This balances out some in that Wizards with their attack spells gain BAB slower and extra attacks slower while Fighters gain attacks early and often. Clerics(remember not JUST healers in D&D) are a step behind the front line fighters but no slouches in combat and gain attacks sooner than Wizards but don't have quiet as much damage from their spells which are less offensive than Arcane spells.

[Yurtrus]

shut down this thread, the other 40 talking about the same thing and deal with it..

[Vivanto]

Personally, I'm fine with the bab 20 attack speed. The problem is there is too huge of a difference between lower bab and partial bab melee classes, namely rogue and monk really got the shaft with this nerf.

Also as I heard (don't have the guts to try it myself) low lvl - low bab attack speed is horrendous.

As my suggestion:

Shorten the gap between the different bab levels so at low lvl you get significantly more attacks, but the progression is in smaller increments so at bab 20 it should be about the same as now, maybe slightly faster. - this also would reduce the gap between partial and full bab melee classes, while increasing fun factor on low lvls.

Fix divine power, madstone rage, flurry of blows, tenser's transformation so that temporary bab boosts will grant you the increased attack speed, this should fix monk attack speed and give an alternate to rogues, melee bards, battleclerics, melee favored souls.

Altough I still don't like the idea of using madstone on my rogue, it's better than being inherently slower to a full bab class, all the while my total attack rating is oftens significantly higher than even a ranger or fighter.

[Mercules]

I must point out for those comparing D&D combat to DDO swings and such.

Here is something most people don't think about with D&D combat. Your "Attack" is not you swinging a weapon. D&D is an abstract combat system. Each turn you gain an attack which really means an "Opening in the Opponent's Defenses". The more skilled you are at attacking(based off BAB) the more Attacks (Openings) you can create.

In reality the characters are hoping around a bit; swinging, blocking, parrying, dodging; and otherwise active. You are not swinging the sword ONCE but you swing high, stab, twist and find your opponent off balance so you can try and stick an attack home.

Why do Fighters get more attacks? Because they are more skilled at it than a Wizard at slipping through an Opponent's defense, not because they go from slow-motion to Ginsu mode.

[Monkey_Archer]

Shorten the gap between the different bab levels so at low lvl you get significantly more attacks, but the progression is in smaller increments so at bab 20 it should be about the same as now, maybe slightly faster. - this also would reduce the gap between partial and full bab melee classes, while increasing fun factor on low lvls.

75+(BAB/2) sound about right? instead of the 63+BAB is is now (approximately)

[Borror0]

75+(BAB/2) sound about right? instead of the 63+BAB is is now (approximately)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...19#post2423319

[Missing_Minds]

I must point out for those comparing D&D combat to DDO swings and such.

That is a valid way of looking at it. However, game play and real life tend to agree with my explanation a bit more.

Yours goes through the whole my turn, your turn, my turn, your turn method, when in reality, it should be all at once, GO!

However, any GM can tell you, trying to do everything at once is near impossible, hence the linear method for PnP. Video games aren't so restrictive such that they can do it all at once.

[azure1968]

[B[The first thing would is fix the LFM to show free quests and pay quests.
then make a toutoral to show new players how to use it.
then I would give a perm boost to xp or loot to all vip accounts lets say a 25% boost to xp or a +2 to loot this would encurage more pay accounts/
there's a ton of things that can be done but will turbine do any of them? thats the question!

[Mercules]

That is a valid way of looking at it. However, game play and real life tend to agree with my explanation a bit more.

Yours goes through the whole my turn, your turn, my turn, your turn method, when in reality, it should be all at once, GO!

However, any GM can tell you, trying to do everything at once is near impossible, hence the linear method for PnP. Video games aren't so restrictive such that they can do it all at once.

It is all at once. All D&D combat states is somewhere in the 6 seconds you get to do these actions based on what you choose. If you take full attack then you are focusing enough to feint and such and gain multiple opportunities to remove HPs.

HPs themselves are abstract. As a person advances in level the do not get tougher organs or more blood they can loose or literally thicker skin. Instead they have more "Stamina" and "reserves of strength" they can call upon. Being hit in D&D removes some of your reserves and brings you closer to danger.

So Veteran Fighters have more experience and are able to ignore more fatigue than say the caster who focussed on studying spells for most of his life. He also has more "tricks" to use to feint his opponent into opening his guard.

GURPS is a system that uses 1 second turns and makes you roll attack, then defenses, and such. Much more given to "realistic" combat which locations you can choose to aim for and differing types of damage from different things. D&D is more abstract "I did damage to him he only has 300 more HPs".

[Missing_Minds]

It is all at once. All D&D combat states is somewhere in the 6 seconds you get to do these actions based on what you choose. If you take full attack then you are focusing enough to feint and such and gain multiple opportunities to remove HPs.

They do not happen all at once. If they did why have initiative? No, to make it more managable for the GM, there is a linear progression other wise that orc I killed during my turn, as I went before it, should have gotten off a swing or few against me. It didn't.

PnP abstracts it yes, but the combat is linear and is treated by the players as linear.

As stated "all at once" realism was put aside for game manageability creating linear combat. DDO combat is "all at once" and not "turn based."