How would you fix the new combat system?

[Monkey_Archer]

My oppinion:

Increase all style's attack rates by 5-10 attack per minute
- so it feels like the prepatch attack speed we are all familar with

Drop the extra offhand attack for TWF
- this was a completly random change that no1 was asking for
- it is a significant buff to TWF (which was already a mostly superior weapon style)
- it puts TWF much further ahead of THF dps (which also just lost about 15% from twitch attack speed)

[BlackSteel]

/signed

nuff said

[Yargore]

I see no reason to base the attackspeed on your bab.
Having current bab 20 attackspeed all the way from bab 1 would imo be better.

[Velexia]

My oppinion:

Increase all style's attack rates by 5-10 attack per minute
- so it feels like the prepatch attack speed we are all familar with

Drop the extra offhand attack for TWF
- this was a completly random change that no1 was asking for
- it is a significant buff to TWF (which was already a mostly superior weapon style)
- it puts TWF much further ahead of THF dps (which also just lost about 15% from twitch attack speed)

That about sums it up.
/signed.

Although, and alternative (that doesn't screw over our casters out there, like me) would be to base the attack speed on LEVEL rather than BAB. Just a thought.

[Mjesko]

I have posted my suggestion here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=201480

To improve the active combat and to give players different animations from the start the number of attacks and the attack speed should be the same from BAB 1 to 20. A player should perform the four different attack animations in the same order with an attack speed of perhaps 1 attack / 2 seconds (ranged), 1 attack / 1.5 seconds (one handed and two handed) or 1 attack / 1 second (two weapon fighting and unarmed).

The damage of main hand and off-hand attacks is increased at BAB 5, 10, 15 and 20 by the base damage of the weapon. For example a dagger would have a damage of 4D4 at BAB 18 (1D4 base + 1D4 at BAB 5 + 1D4 at BAB 10 + 1D4 at BAB 15).

Two weapon fighting feats should reduce the attack penalty (Without Two Weapon Fighting: -10, Two Weapon Fighting: -4, Improved Two Weapon Fighting: -2 and Greater Two Weapon Fighting: +0). Power attack should have a -2 attack penalty and should increase the damage by BAB x 0.5 (one handed weapons) or BAB x 0.75 (two handed weapons). Rapid shot should increase the attack speed of ranged weapons to 1 attack / 1.5 seconds.

These changes could improve the active combat of DDO, could reduce the need of inflated monster AC / HP and could make grazing hits useful at high levels.

[Borror0]

Increase all style's attack rates by 5-10 attack per minute
- so it feels like the prepatch attack speed we are all familar with

I think it's something we can all agree with.

However, let me raise two points:

1. I think a part (ie not everything) of the problem is that we're comparing. I have not checked, and I'd be interested in the results, but I would be ready to bet that the attack rates are equal or fairly close to the ones we had when cap was 12 and 14. (Where we all had no problems with the attack rates and only had four swings.) So, I wonder how much of the complaints would subside over time.
   
   
2. That might not be easily possible or may have potential draw backs. If what is required to obtain a decent low level attack rate would result in very high end game DPS, if it would make the speed animations look silly or if it would greatly deepen the gap between melee and ranged, simply increasing the the attack rates might prove itself to be a bad idea.

In light of the second point, I wonder if nerfing Haste's bonus to melee alacrity might not be part of the solution. If, for example, the bonus was reduced from 25% to 15% and that everyone's speed (ie melee and ranged) were increased by 10% (ie no DPS loss for anyone), it might solve the complaints of low levels being too slow (or at least help).

Doing that would also have the bonus of helping small group balance (which is a concern with dungeon scaling, now).

Drop the extra offhand attack for TWF
- this was a completly random change that no1 was asking for
- it is a significant buff to TWF (which was already a mostly superior weapon style)
- it puts TWF much further ahead of THF dps (which also just lost about 15% from twitch attack speed)

/agree

I'm not sure they did that one.

[Monkey_Archer]

I see no reason to base the attackspeed on your bab.
Having current bab 20 attackspeed all the way from bab 1 would imo be better.

While my battlewizards and rogue agree here, it does make some sense that the more skilled combat classes would be able to attack faster, due to training or whatnot...

So far ive noticed approximately a 1 attack per minute increase per BAB (unhasted)
i think they could half this to 1 attack every 2 BAB instead, and increase the low BAB attack speeds.

[Aerendil]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the animations are currently not tied to the combat log, correct?

So our character may swing quite slowly, but our combat log records a dozen or more attacks in that time frame.

If that's the case, why not speed up the animation if it's unrelated to what the game actually records as happening?

[Monkey_Archer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the animations are currently not tied to the combat log, correct?

So our character may swing quite slowly, but our combat log records a dozen or more attacks in that time frame.

If that's the case, why not speed up the animation if it's unrelated to what the game actually records as happening?

the animations are directly related to combat log/actual attacks.
1 animation = 1 attack for S&B or THF
1 animation = 1, 2 or 3 attacks for TWF depending on which TWF feats you have and whihc of the 4 animation you are performing

[Monkey_Archer]

I think it's something we can all agree with.

However, let me raise two points:

1. I think a part (ie not everything) of the problem is that we're comparing. I have not checked, and I'd be interested in the results, but I would be ready to bet that the attack rates are equal or fairly close to the ones we had when cap was 12 and 14. (Where we all had no problems with the attack rates and only had four swings.) So, I wonder how much of the complaints would subside over time.
2. That might not be easily possible or may have potential draw backs. If what is required to obtain a decent low level attack rate would result in very high end game DPS, if it would make the speed animations look silly or if it would greatly deepen the gap between melee and ranged, simply increasing the the attack rates might prove itself to be a bad idea.

What testing i could get done here before the servers were brought down indicates a loss of swing speed for all styles even at BAB 17 (highest ive been able to test so far) and BAB 13 (previously 4 swing animation)

cforces numbers for TWF: BAB 16=83, BAB 13=88
my new numbers for TWF: BAB 16=79, BAB 13=76

so BAB 16 is now ~5% slower, while BAB 13 is ~13% slower
Im guessing the only BAB that didnt loose any speed is BAB 20.

The rough formula for swing speed seems to be 63+BAB (althoug it doesnt seem to fit for BABs lower then 10)

I think a good way to increase to adjust that forumla would be 75+(BAB/2)
Which would result in about 5-10 extra attack for low levels, and only a couple extra at high levels (which would put BAB 16 back to the previous 83 attack per minute)

In light of the second point, I wonder if nerfing Haste's bonus to melee alacrity might not be part of the solution. If, for example, the bonus was reduced from 25% to 15% and that everyone's speed (ie melee and ranged) were increased by 10% (ie no DPS loss for anyone), it might solve the complaints of low levels being too slow (or at least help).

Doing that would also have the bonus of helping small group balance (which is a concern with dungeon scaling, now).

not a bad idea either.

[FluffyCalico]

I think a good way to increase to adjust that forumla would be 75+(BAB/2)

No BAB should be very important. If it's not going to control how many swings it damm well better control how fast they are.

I would thing 55+(BABx2) would be far more fair and accurate.

[Monkey_Archer]

No BAB should be very important. If it's not going to control how many swings it damm well better control how fast they are.

I would thing 55+(BABx2) would be far more fair and accurate.

You realiazie that formula would DECREASE the already painfully slow BAB 1 attack speed that everyone is complaining about by a further 20%? right?

And would also increase BAB 20 attack speed by about 15%? thus hurting any all splash classes dramatically (rogues and battle clerics especially)

[FluffyCalico]

And would also increase BAB 20 attack speed by about 15%? thus hurting any all splash classes dramatically (rogues and battle clerics especially)

As it should... BAB is supposed to effect your attacks per round so why not attacks per min? All I see is " I multi classed a low BAB combo and am upset that LOW BAB is effecting me like it should."

[Monkey_Archer]

As it should... BAB is supposed to effect your attacks per round so why not attacks per min? All I see is " I multi classed a low BAB combo and am upset that LOW BAB is effecting me like it should."

Correct me if im wrong, but if i remeber correctly, attacks per round increased every 5 BAB in pnp (like the old system)? In which case there was no difference in attack per round between a lvl 20 rogue (BAB 15) and a lvl 20 fighter (BAB 20)

[FluffyCalico]

Correct me if im wrong, but if i remeber correctly, attacks per round increased every 5 BAB in pnp (like the old system)? In which case there was no difference in attack per round between a lvl 20 rogue (BAB 15) and a lvl 20 fighter (BAB 20)

Correct they changed it from huge steps in BAB changes to small ones every BAB. If you want it back to night and day between 14 and 15 then that is a whole different argument. But there is no way I will agree with almost removing the effect of BAB all together. I dont care about small steps vs few large ones but it better mean something. If you want the few large ones back instead, fine by all means but dont try to make BAB worthless

[The_Phenx]

I see no reason to base the attackspeed on your bab.
Having current bab 20 attackspeed all the way from bab 1 would imo be better.

The reason is becuase in D&D you are supposed to get an extra attack per round at BAB 5 10 15 20... this used to be done by way of adding attack animations at those #rs....the problem was that when they added the animations it actually lessened the amounts of attacks you got over a set ammount of time.

In response to that problem... they took the same amount of attacks removed one animation and squeezed them into the same amount of time. Then as you progress the animations speed up to give you the extra attacks for the proper BAB progression. Unfortunately the effect was that all the animations look slowed.

Honestly they look more realistic, and the dps output is the same or better, we are just used to how things look.

[Cedwin]

All of my characters swing soooooo slow after this change, I feel like I'm running with perma troglodyte stench.

[Tharlak]

My oppinion:

Increase all style's attack rates by 5-10 attack per minute
- so it feels like the prepatch attack speed we are all familar with

Drop the extra offhand attack for TWF
- this was a completly random change that no1 was asking for
- it is a significant buff to TWF (which was already a mostly superior weapon style)
- it puts TWF much further ahead of THF dps (which also just lost about 15% from twitch attack speed)

/signed.

[Monkey_Archer]

Honestly they look more realistic, and the dps output is the same or better, we are just used to how things look.

No, the dps output is lower (much lower in some cases). Except possibly high BAB TWFs becasue of that extra offhand they threw in for no particular reason....

[Baahb3]

Correct me if im wrong, but if i remeber correctly, attacks per round increased every 5 BAB in pnp (like the old system)? In which case there was no difference in attack per round between a lvl 20 rogue (BAB 15) and a lvl 20 fighter (BAB 20)

Actually the first cut off was +6 BA for a second attack and then every 5 there after. So your lvl 20 rogue would only get 3 attacks where the lvl 20 fighter would get 4.

+16/+11/+6/+1 or +0