What are they thinking; and where are they taking us???

[Ciaran]

I see more complaints about mouse-look mode than anything.

Seriously bad job by the OP at actualy letting us know what they heck they are going on about.

Besides, I played last night and have no problem whatsover with the attack changes. So realy, why would I jump to the conlusion that's the issue here?

Your subjective experience and opinion of the attack changes doesn't preclude you from noticing the several threads complaining about those changes. In fact you seem to be aware there are attack changes.

Since you seem to be aware of the combat changes and since the OP references the Combat system and the changes, as illustrated here:

The combat system in this game has always been the drawing force for a large number of the DDO faithful that carried this game on their backs during the last 2 years. There is nothing on the market that can realistically hold a candle to the combat that we've come to love and embrace. (The eye candy and all that is good too, don't get me wrong)

And here:

I sincerely hope that the general outcry over this change to one of the games strongest foundation pieces is re-adjusted to something that is a better compromise that will acheive what developers are trying to acoomplish and keep the general population from feeling like they've been wronged.

Why wouldn't you draw the conclusion that is the issue here? Or did you think he meant that mouse look was one of the game's strongest foundations?

Seriously, bad job by you at picking up on context clues.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

Go ahead and look at how angry people are with the changes to mouse look. For them that is essential to how they interact with the combat system.

Also in your 1st quote out of he OP we see a dismissal of eye candy as being important.

Well guess what, the swing animation changes are 100% pure eye candy!

It is not your # of actualy dice rolls per minute that has changed. Only the eye candy changed, hence... what's the big deal?

[Ladius]

"The customer is always right" is one of the biggest fallacies out there.

I think the point of the concept is to be taken as a general mentality not so literally as to give the customer the shirt off your back by any means. It can be translated into something more like "Make sure your customers leave happy so as to assure their return." That isn't a fallacy that is a solid customer service oriented philosophy. No customers equals no business. In any service-related industry including entertainment, if you don't give the people what they want they will not only not come back or use your product or service but then they will tell 10 people on average not to use your product either. There are always exceptions to the rules i.e. rude and belligerent customers obviously don't deserve the same amount of bending over backwards to please them. But I think a general voice is being sounded here in a constructive way form quite a few people. "We don't like some of the things Turbine is changing." I for one have been very disappointed by some of the new changes and even though I have been on the game for years now, some of these things will make my enjoyment on the game decrees to the point of possibly moving on. Taking the time to simply evaluate, judge the situation and then react to it given the feedback from the community would be a massive move in the right direction from Turbine and save them quite a bit of face.

Ladius

[Thrudh]

Combat is broken....I am a 3.5yr veteran....still pay to play...and i have to say that this is the ONLY change to the game that has ****ed me off. I can't kill a self healing mob due to the fact that it has time to whistle the national anthem, dance a jig, and cast two heals on itself ALL in between each of my swings....


W-T-F!!

Devs, yall need to fix this sh!t!!

You're attacking the same number of times, the animations are just painfully slow (when unhasted). You should be able to kill that self-healing mob just the same as you ever did... you just won't look as cool doing it...

I too want the animation speed increased, but my killing power isn't much different...

[enochiancub]

They only changed the animations people. So I cant imagine that this post is about combat changes.

[Twerpp]

Broken record here but the combat system has always gone through changes... if they mess it up they will fix it real soon....

They gotta be told they messed it up.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

It feels different - people are often against any form of change just because it's different from what they're used to. We're probably right now in 'anger' in the change curve.

Also - people like to complain rather than agree - it's far more likely that someone will post here disagreeing with the changes rather than someone posting here 'I love the changes' - mostly because if you post like that then you're likely to get flamed by those who disagree. Just because those who agree or are ambivalent don't post doesn't mean they don't exist and potentially form a large majority.

Anyway - that over with - I personally like the changes - it means that those people who exploit the ability to break their attack chain can no longer artificially boost their dps - I've found that the dps of my thf fvs has increased and I no longer have to worry about the slow final swing.

However, the changes to the low BAB seem to have made the swing speed at low levels very very slow - since this is what new players to the game will first experience it seems to make sense to make the curve of attack speed gain less pronounced i.e. you gain a smaller % of speed for each BAB but start off at a decent speed at low levels. Alternatively to benefit those full BAB classes, make the speed increase between 16 and 20 more pronounced.

Garth

[Thrudh]

They gotta be told they messed it up.

They know... Eladrin posted changes will be made

[smatt]

Go ahead and look at how angry people are with the changes to mouse look. For them that is essential to how they interact with the combat system.

Also in your 1st quote out of he OP we see a dismissal of eye candy as being important.

Well guess what, the swing animation changes are 100% pure eye candy!

It is not your # of actualy dice rolls per minute that has changed. Only the eye candy changed, hence... what's the big deal?

Because a video game is all about stimuli, and one of the biggest stimuli are the visuals of whirling, jumping, swinging, and splatting... And that has slowed down for many.... Think of it like this....., You have a keg of beer, plenty of beer.... You always have a pint glass, then suddenly all those are gone and you can only use a 1/2 pint glass.... Even though you can refill that glass as often as you want.... From a phsycological standpoint MOST people won't feel as satisfied.... Part of what youv'e beomce used to was that big glass, even though it has really little to do with what's in it..... You've become used to that big fancy delivery system...... Now it's not as big and or fancy... And you don't like it, whether or not the actual product suppiled is different or not.

Tis true....

[Ciaran]

I'm not sure if I can adequately explain this to you as you have missed every point I was trying to make, but I will make the attempt in the hopes that we can better understand each other.

Go ahead and look at how angry people are with the changes to mouse look. For them that is essential to how they interact with the combat system.

That has nothing to do with what I'm speaking to here.

You asked "Why would I jump to the conclusion that (combat changes) was the issue here" and stated the OP did a bad job and letting people know what he was talking about.

I pointed out where he identified the combat system as "...the drawing force for a large number of the DDO faithful that carried this game on their backs during the last 2 years." and later where he referenced it by saying "...the general outcry over this change to one of the games strongest foundation pieces is re-adjusted".

How could you not possibly draw the conclusion from reading his post, especially the parts I quoted that he was talking about the changes to the combat system?

Also in your 1st quote out of he OP we see a dismissal of eye candy as being important.

Ummm, no if you actually read it and comprehend it he's making it a point to mention that the eye-candy is ALSO important and that what he is saying shouldn't suggest he doesn't think the "eye-candy and stuff" isn't good or important as well.

Well guess what, the swing animation changes are 100% pure eye candy!

It is not your # of actualy dice rolls per minute that has changed. Only the eye candy changed, hence... what's the big deal?

The animations are more than eye-candy, they are directly related to one's perception of combat and enjoyment of combat in the game. Most of us understand the number of attacks per minute haven't changed (though I'm not convinced this is true with S&B, especially at lower levels, even if it is, my point still stands), but the visual speed of combat HAS changed and that is a bad thing.

Your statement of "what's the big deal" seems to be based on your misunderstanding of the OP and erroneous conclusion that he deemed eye candy to be unimportant and that swing speeds are "100% eye candy". As I pointed out, he did no such thing so your conclusion is flawed.

[Ciaran]

get a haste clickie.. problem solved..

Yeah, because 1:30 to 2:30 minutes of haste per clicky, nevermind having to collect several of them and stop combat to reactivate them (which you can't do if you are raging) totally makes up for an unnecessary change to combat speed.

Nevermind that as players that enjoy melee we shouldn't be dependent on any SPELL to make combat enjoyable like it was before this change.

[bellack]

the attack speed does seem as though it has been slowed,but then again i might not have noticed if i hadn't known ahead of time! ? you are kidding right?.so the slow speed of your swing now you would not have noticed if you did not see a post ont it? really? do you have ne mele classes at all? The swing speed is gimped atm and i hope turbine just screwed up some codeing somewhere and they will fix it sooner than *soon* but to say you may not of noticed well...........it's just dumb

And I thought it was my internet connection until I saw this thread. Well that does suck. Well hopfully the devs will see the errors of thier ways and change it back. Because the only reason I'm still playing this game was the combat system

[Mercules]

And I thought it was my internet connection until I saw this thread. Well that does suck. Well hopfully the devs will see the errors of thier ways and change it back. Because the only reason I'm still playing this game was the combat system

It was mostly a visual change and they are already talking about adjusting it again.

[bellack]

It was mostly a visual change and they are already talking about adjusting it again.

OK that makes me feel better. Thanks for the info.

[adamkatt]

The same "they" that rammed Dungeon Alerts down our necks? Excuse me as I scoff just a little bit.

bahhh you have a good point... i am not a fan of DA either..

[bandyman1]

Anyway - that over with - I personally like the changes - it means that those people who exploit the ability to break their attack chain can no longer artificially boost their dps - I've found that the dps of my thf fvs has increased and I no longer have to worry about the slow final swing.
Garth

So...what you're saying here is; " I lack the skill to actually play a high level THFing melee, so I want the game dumbed down to the point that I can keep up with everyone else. Especially those more skilled than me in a real-time, action combat system game. The combat should be much more like WoW's, where I can just target and auto-attack. That's my idea of real-time, exciting combat. "

Great argument .

[bandyman1]

To clarify; You're **** right I'm ****ed off.

Look at the threads of people talking about why they won't leave this game. There's a common theme in all of them; The freaking combat system.

It was fine before. Skill SHOULD be rewarded in such an active combat system, and yes; Twitch is a skill.

Those who want WoW combat, should just play WoW.

[pjw]

I lack the skill to actually play a high level THFing melee...should be much more like WoW's, where I can just target and auto-attack. That's my idea of real-time, exciting combat.

I'm genuinely just after information here -- I'm not a good melee player, but when I do play them it *seems* that there is a lot more to the DDO combat system than mouse-mashing-while-moving (which is *I think* what we are talking about). Even with these changes, we will still have the following (which I think, at least by repute, is considerably more than WoW):

- moving around mobs to reduce their AC
- moving in general to force them to move
- intimi-tanking/kiting
- tactical use of space

and probably more (as I said, I'm not a melee player).

OK, these are not really twitch skills on the level of breaking the combat chain, but they do make the combat more interesting.

So my questions are:

- did I miss anything in the above list
- is this offerred by any other MMO

Because, at least on the face of it, this looks a lot like the furore over the removal of the spam-trip bug; people got lazy with spam trip and resented actually having to think about their fighting again. I suspect the same is happening here.

[quickgrif]

So...what you're saying here is; " I lack the skill to actually play a high level THFing melee, so I want the game dumbed down to the point that I can keep up with everyone else. Especially those more skilled than me in a real-time, action combat system game. The combat should be much more like WoW's, where I can just target and auto-attack. That's my idea of real-time, exciting combat. "

Great argument .

First of all auto attack has always been there so that is not a very good statement, 2nd twitching in a well balanced system is fine. Twitching to break a broken progression in the attack chain that penalized higher levels then complaining that they are fixing what is broken is silly. They need to bump up speed animation some and I do like the suggestion of taking haste to 15% from 25% at the same time to offset the 10% overall progression increase they will give the attack chain. Makes haste less a need to have.

[Zippo]

In testing yesterday, yes the visuals seemed much slower butr the actual attack speed seemed the same for the most part, unless you were moving, in line with Eladrin's explanation

Would that not though essentially remove the need/want for (except for some of the PrE's needing it) spring attack. Looks like I freed up a few feats for some of my toons