Deceptive store practices, Turbine?

[Newtons_Apple]

I'm not sure changing prices of in game virtual items would fall under fraud.

On another note, seeing as it is just virtual items and bought with virtual points not real money, as well as Turbine is the only one who can set the market price. Saying they jacked up the price only to put it on sale is really their discretion. Maybe they decided the original price was too low initially. After the sale is over then it returns to the higher price they set.

But the turbine points can be derived from real money...

[transtemporal]

Some of the more voracious fanboy's have already replied and tried to make me look ridiculous.

I think you're doing great on your own when you post stuff like this:

I have to wonder how a lawsuit alleging fraud brought by a large portion of your active customer base would affect your current litigation with Atari. I'd imagine it would give them some circumstantial evidence to back up their claim that you have shady business practices...

So far you seem to don't have enough evidence to bring anything against Turbine, much less a lawsuit. All I see are vague suggestions and moaning about not getting your points.

When you bring this suit, I suggest you present evidence that shows:

• Turbine quoting you one price and charging another; e.g. quoting 521 in the shop checkout, then charging you 595 points for it
• Advertising a normal price as a discount price; e.g. 595 as a sale price when the normal price is 595
• Advertising a price that shows a larger discount than it actually is; e.g. 695 > 521, rather than 595 to 521

Then you've got a game! But until then you're just posturing.

[Ulurjah]

I will be able to answer this one tomorrow at the very least! It's my billing date...

Well ... if I pay for six months in advance, they already have my money. Shouldn't I have my points the moment they have their money?

I think you're doing great on your own when you post stuff like this:



So far you seem to don't have enough evidence to bring anything against Turbine, much less a lawsuit. All I see are vague suggestions and moaning about not getting your points.

When you bring this suit, I suggest you present evidence that shows:

• Turbine quoting you one price and charging another; e.g. quoting 521 in the shop checkout, then charging you 595 points for it
• Advertising a normal price as a discount price; e.g. 595 as a sale price when the normal price is 595
• Advertising a price that shows a larger discount than it actually is; e.g. 695 > 521, rather than 595 to 521

Then you've got a game! But until then you're just posturing.

When you finish catching up on the thread, let me know.

[Mockduck]

Well ... if I pay for six months in advance, they already have my money. Shouldn't I have my points the moment they have their money?

Good point!

[noneill]

Well firstly, if you're on the six month plan, then you would get 3000 on your bill date. You will not get any points until your bill date ... you won't get any points until the next time you are billed ... and at that time you will get 3000 ... so however many months you still had already paid for you just got screwed out of points. So if your six month billing cycle began on 31AUG2009 for example (That was my most recent billing date but I'm on a month to month plan), you would have been screwed out of 3000 points over the next six months simply because your bill date was one day before they started counting.

I have to imagine the amount of points lost to people who are partway through a pre-paid six month or 3 month or 12 month block right now and aren't going to get the points for whatever portion of months is left ... it must be a staggering number.

Nice eh?


Also, the bag price changed because they made them bound to a single character. The price would have to come down a significant amount more for me to ever consider them again. I'm glad I purchased one bag each on the two servers I play on before the nerf.

GreyRogue already quoted Tolero to answer you about the way points are paid for long term plans but since I asked her that exact question a while back and got an answer here is the link:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=23

The gift points described in the table are seperate from the monthly VIP program points (but to put it in D&D terms, they are considered seperate bonuses and therefor stack ).

Post Script: (Remember though that your monthly VIP program points will be based on your billing date, which can obviously vary from person to person).

That makes sense, when you pay your bill, you get the points. But how about those of us who six month subscriptions plans? For instance my renewal date is 12/9/09, will I get points on the 9th of every month? Not until I renew in December and then six months at once? Retroactive six months worth from my last renewal in June ?

It's a little off topic from this thread, so those of you reading this who aren't participating in the VIP program in DDO Unlimited read no further, as this response is only pertaining to the above question buuut... to answer the question:

In a situation where you are doing a long plan for VIP rather than a single month (like a 3 month, 6 month, etc VIP plan), it still happens month to month. If you were on a 6 month plan, it doesn't make you wait until all the way at the end of your entire 6 month plan to get your VIP monthly stipend points

[stalag131]

Wait - stores have been doing this for years!

I mean, they even have sales where the sale price is more expensive than the original price!

Radio shack was particularly bad at this.

[smatt]

smatt ... the whooshing sound you heard as you read my post was the point going over your head. I'm not threatening a lawsuit here. I'm attempting to get through to Turbine that right now is not the time to walk in the grey (maybe it's right, maybe it's not) areas. Right now is a really good time for them to adopt some "best practices" and walk the "straight and narrow" for awhile.



This is true. But it's not too much to ask for same day service. I'm on my 17th day without having received at the very least the 999 points. It's possible I did get the 400 vet points (but if I did, I didn't get some of my server first bonus points on Thelanis, so either way I'm missing some of what's owed). I'm not exaggerating the timeframe here. It's been 17 days now since DDO:EU went live ... and the 999 points still aren't in my account.

Ya I get it.... I was over the top myself.... But even bringing the word lawsuit in makes people laugh, whether it's a serious statement or not is irrelevant. It creates the appearance of a screaming meemie, in other words, it causes people to to dismiss your entire post. I get what you're what you're saying. But afer havign paid attention to Turbine over the last almsot 3 years and the way this game is run, I doubt there's anything intentionally deceptive about the store. It looks more like laxidaisical over-sight to me. I mean heck, looking back how many times have they borked somethign so simple as posting in a consistant manner a scheduled downtime? Or even remember to TELL us about a scheduled downtime anywhere? I mean if you can't get that right... Well.....

I hate to bust on them, because they are people, but man..... Sometimes you have to wonder which Keystone cop is running the joint and which one is goign to the donut shop and how lost will the donut shop cop on the way there let alone on the way back, and will the cop running the joint even realise he got a lemon filled instead of the rasberry filled he really wanted.....


Most of the time depending on my mood I find it rather entertaining.....


Oh and BTW, I got my 500 points on my billing date.... As convaluted as they made allt he different point awards it doesn't suprise me that it's borked.... Nor does it suprise me that they can't seem to get it all straightened out.....

[sirgog]

I'm not sure changing prices of in game virtual items would fall under fraud.

On another note, seeing as it is just virtual items and bought with virtual points not real money, as well as Turbine is the only one who can set the market price. Saying they jacked up the price only to put it on sale is really their discretion. Maybe they decided the original price was too low initially. After the sale is over then it returns to the higher price they set.

At least in Australia, these practices are a criminal offense, coming in as misleading and deceptive business practices. They attract pretty big fines for companies here.

[Hafeal]

Wait - stores have been doing this for years!

I mean, they even have sales where the sale price is more expensive than the original price!

Radio shack was particularly bad at this.

When stores are caught doing it, they are subject to fines and other penalties by the attorney general's office in most states and possibly a private civil cause of action. Stores are not always caught doing it, of course. As for Radio Shack doing it, I would have my doubts as they are a national retailer; most national retailers don't bother with these games as they are fairly closely monitored by various consumer groups.

[Hafeal]

I hear what you are saying. If anything, after 3 years myself, I can only conclude that Turbine continues with a track record of being less than forthright - with just about anything. This track record indicates something more pervasive than simple laziness or carelessness. In most instances they have a difficult time coming out about anything in-game being a mistake on their part and when they do, it is rarely timely and only after they have been called onto the carpet.

But afer havign paid attention to Turbine over the last almsot 3 years and the way this game is run, I doubt there's anything intentionally deceptive about the store. It looks more like laxidaisical over-sight to me. I mean heck, looking back how many times have they borked somethign so simple as posting in a consistant manner a scheduled downtime? Or even remember to TELL us about a scheduled downtime anywhere? I mean if you can't get that right... Well.....

I hate to bust on them, because they are people, but man..... Sometimes you have to wonder which Keystone cop is running the joint and which one is goign to the donut shop and how lost will the donut shop cop on the way there let alone on the way back, and will the cop running the joint even realise he got a lemon filled instead of the rasberry filled he really wanted.....


Most of the time depending on my mood I find it rather entertaining.....


Oh and BTW, I got my 500 points on my billing date.... As convaluted as they made allt he different point awards it doesn't suprise me that it's borked.... Nor does it suprise me that they can't seem to get it all straightened out.....

[Tarrant]

Hi everyone,

We've been reading this thread, and wanted to clarify the pricing changes for huge bags that you've been seeing over the past few days.

Before Monday, huge bags were priced at 595 Turbine points and bound to account. This was a mistake as the bags were always meant to be bound to character. When we realized we were charging a bound to character price for a bound to account item, we raised the cost by 100 Turbine points (to 695) to better reflect the value of the item you were buying. This coincided with a sale we were having on bags which brought the price down to 521 points, and with the wisdom of hindsight we acknowledge this may have appeared deceptive. For that we apologize. With yesterday's patch and the fix to huge bags, we were able to bring the base price back down to 595 turbine points, which was our intention all along.

Had we told you in advance that the change was coming to the bags (and so the reason for the price increase), it would have been akin to letting you know about an exploit before it was fixed. For obvious reasons we decided not to retroactively change the bag that some of you had already purchased, but the bag you see in the store now was always the intended product.

I hope this explains everything for you. And as always, thank you for your feedback!

[Hokiewa]

Hi everyone,

We've been reading this thread, and wanted to clarify the pricing changes for huge bags that you've been seeing over the past few days.

Before Monday, huge bags were priced at 595 Turbine points and bound to account. This was a mistake as the bags were always meant to be bound to character. When we realized we were charging a bound to character price for a bound to account item, we raised the cost by 100 Turbine points (to 695) to better reflect the value of the item you were buying. This coincided with a sale we were having on bags which brought the price down to 521 points, and with the wisdom of hindsight we acknowledge this may have appeared deceptive. For that we apologize. With yesterday's patch and the fix to huge bags, we were able to bring the base price back down to 595 turbine points, which was our intention all along.

Had we told you in advance that the change was coming to the bags (and so the reason for the price increase), it would have been akin to letting you know about an exploit before it was fixed. For obvious reasons we decided not to retroactively change the bag that some of you had already purchased, but the bag you see in the store now was always the intended product.

I hope this explains everything for you. And as always, thank you for your feedback!

lmao, that's exactly the explanation I would've come up with.......So if 100 pts is the deciding factor btw a bound to toon and a bound to account bag, sorry that doesn't make sense...Fair enough, though you likely will never sell "huge" bags again...

[Hafeal]

Well, now I know my threads do get ignored. Thanks for the belated apology. I have not gone through every item (yet) to figure out if this happened elsewhere but I would be curious to know if you can be upfront about this happening with other items. Also, you were able to change the price of the goods as well as the description without a patch. But to change the item, you have to wait for the patch?

I guess what I find disappointing is the lack of communication as you explained. I am still a little fuzzy:

Had we told you in advance that the change was coming to the bags (and so the reason for the price increase), it would have been akin to letting you know about an exploit before it was fixed. For obvious reasons we decided not to retroactively change the bag that some of you had already purchased, but the bag you see in the store now was always the intended product.

I find it difficult to view huge bags and their function to be an exploit of any kind. If you are saying that their function could be exploited, great, I would understand. But, in fact, people who bought bags bound to account are able to keep that feature, no?

Aren't you really saying that you wanted to prevent a run on huge bags if you announced the change? And Turbine, in an effort to capitalize on the popularity of the bags just decided to lie in the weeds hoping people would just not notice? I mean it took several threads to get this response and before your post there was no formal explanation, just a blurb in the release notes about the intended change.

Geez, where is the common sense? And the kicker is that the bags are really far from worth the price unless they are bound to account. Thus, I would hazard a guess that bag sales will drop from initial sales and be a low volume seller. If I am wrong, lunch on me Tarrant.

Lastly, I have requested a formal mechanism to post individual item prices in-game and on the DDO forums (or in the compendium) and then announce updates, not just sales. Any chance this is something that Turbine is willing to do?

[Tolero]

I find it difficult to view huge bags and their function to be an exploit of any kind. If you are saying that their function could be exploited, great, I would understand. But, in fact, people who bought bags bound to account are able to keep that feature, no?

The bags were not an exploit in the "ah ha if I do something shady with them" sense, but in the "oh shoot these weren't supposed to work like that" sense. When we realized the item error, we had a tricky choice to make: on one hand acting one way would result in a boost of sales, on the other doing that went against our normal policies around game errors by doing so. We opted to stick with our normal practices rather than spiking sales on an erroneous item.

[sephiroth1084]

The bags were not an exploit in the "ah ha if I do something shady with them" sense, but in the "oh shoot these weren't supposed to work like that" sense. When we realized the item error, we had a tricky choice to make: on one hand acting one way would result in a boost of sales, on the other doing that went against our normal policies around game errors by doing so. We opted to stick with our normal practices rather than spiking sales on an erroneous item.

A little bit of integrity maintenance vs. greed? I think you guys made the right call, despite how unsavory a taste it may leave in many players' mouths. Bravo! I hope that, going forward, you guys continue making your decisions in this fashion (well, not the roundabout/confusing/apparently deceptive way, but the way of integrity)! Bravo.

[dopey69]

The bags were not an exploit in the "ah ha if I do something shady with them" sense, but in the "oh shoot these weren't supposed to work like that" sense. When we realized the item error, we had a tricky choice to make: on one hand acting one way would result in a boost of sales, on the other doing that went against our normal policies around game errors by doing so. We opted to stick with our normal practices rather than spiking sales on an erroneous item.

or did you think that if you bind them to character we would have to buy several per acct. rather than one!? mmm sounds about right to me spin doctor

[Valiance]

The bags were not an exploit in the "ah ha if I do something shady with them" sense, but in the "oh shoot these weren't supposed to work like that" sense. When we realized the item error, we had a tricky choice to make: on one hand acting one way would result in a boost of sales, on the other doing that went against our normal policies around game errors by doing so. We opted to stick with our normal practices rather than spiking sales on an erroneous item.

Lol give me a break. Exploit ya right. How bout more like exploit in the "if we change these to bound on account we can exploit the player base into buying one for every character!" If that's what you meant then I'm buying that there was definitely an exploit going on.

v

[KoboldKiller]

Lol give me a break. Exploit ya right. How bout more like exploit in the "if we change these to bound on account we can exploit the player base into buying one for every character!" If that's what you meant then I'm buying that there was definitely an exploit going on.

v

You don't HAVE to buy them.

[smatt]

or did you think that if you bind them to character we would have to buy several per acct. rather than one!? mmm sounds about right to me spin doctor

No they didn't think that... They KNEW that..... And so it is.... Like I said before I'm really suprised that anything in the store is bind to account as oppossed to bind to toon..... Not saying I like it being on the customer side, but if I were them...... And I wanted to run a business in a profitable way, that would be the way I'd attempt to do it.... Sometimes people seem to forget that not onyl is this a game, it's a business....

[Kistilan]

That's a great story...

But boosting the price on the "value" of a mistake is a dishonest move too. You didn't let anyone know about the added value, yet boosted the price because of the added value? No, that only works if you advertise the item as being more-than-average ie premium. The item was inflated in price without telling the player base why.

In this particular instance I'm going to assume the worst, not the best, because it was not done transparently. Had you made an announcement that "Huge Bags have inflated in price because they are currently more valuable than anticipated," everyone would have ho-hummed and thought about it. Even a "Temporary Value Increase" post would have clued players in without stating, "Yeah we're going to remove that bind-to-account feature." Hiding all of the operations behind the bag's situation was not transparent.

I also conclude that most VIPs will not be purchasing your Huge bags anymore as we can do better with Medium/Large Bags that can be shared.

PS: Please don't make those bind -- it would only make the Huge Bag issue an absolute deception.