Deceptive store practices, Turbine?

[Ulurjah]

So Turbine,

We know that you don't want to be accused of being criminals, right? Out here in the "real" world, it is not acceptable for a business to raise the price of an item, and then advertise a "sale" on that item that returns the price back to the original price point. That's considered fraud. I would argue that it should also be considered fraud in the turbine store as well.

You have done this in at least one case, and I suspect probably in many cases, with these daily "sales" you have going. When something is originally priced at 521 points, then you jack the price up to 695 and advertise it as being on a "25% off sale" that merely reduces the price back to the original price, this is fraud. It's not legal.

Turbine, you have a dismal track record with many of your current and former customers. During this time when you are trying to bring in fresh player base and appeal to new players and bring more folks into the game, do you really want to alienate folks by committing fraud against them for a buck?

This is in addition to the fact that many players (myself included) are still waiting on their 999 point reward as well as their veteran rewards. And many other players are reporting that they have been billed already since DDO:EU went live, and they have not received their VIP points, despite days going by. And the account support team is apparently very backlogged, because it's taking them literally weeks to answer inquiries.

When people were only paying subscription money which only purchased them access to the servers, then the sorts of delay's and mistakes and bad decisions that are being made now were not as big a deal. But now, people are spending money specifically for turbine points and things from the store. At best, what's going on is incompetence on a massive scale. At worse, intentional defrauding of the customer base.

I have to wonder how a lawsuit alleging fraud brought by a large portion of your active customer base would affect your current litigation with Atari. I'd imagine it would give them some circumstantial evidence to back up their claim that you have shady business practices...

[KoboldKiller]

I'm not sure changing prices of in game virtual items would fall under fraud.

On another note, seeing as it is just virtual items and bought with virtual points not real money, as well as Turbine is the only one who can set the market price. Saying they jacked up the price only to put it on sale is really their discretion. Maybe they decided the original price was too low initially. After the sale is over then it returns to the higher price they set.

[Cyr]

Hear hear OP!

Turbine has a very poor track record of honest communication with the player base. Everything they say almost has to be examined to see how it sounded like they said one thing, but actually left it open to mean exactly the opposite.

This business with the store though is inexcusable. This is non-delivery of goods. Just because it is a digital product does not make it exempt from acceptable business practices.

[Ulurjah]

I'm not sure changing prices of in game virtual items would fall under fraud.

They have a real world cost do they not? That's all it takes to meet the definition of fraud. Yes, this is on a very small scale (probably less than a couple dollars) ... but it's on a massive scale. If 10,000 players take advantage of the "sale" and are defrauded out of $1.50 worth of turbine points each, that's $15,000 ... and Turbine was bragging that "millions upon millions" of turbine points were sold during the VIP preview days.

[Talish]

Hmm these prices went up when?

During headstart for DDO:EU everything in the store was pretty well on sale(sept 1- Sept 8). After it went live to the world Sept 9th the prices were returned to their regular price.

[oberon131313]

erm. For these items you are alleging that Turbine "raised the price on" when you purchased them the first week, did you happen to check the pricing in the checkout screen? I noticed that for a lot of items, on the final purchase screen, the base price was higher, and I got the sale price. Unless you have a comprehensive price list from release, you can't really claim that the prices were raised, as the price that showed during the first week may have been sale pricing, just unadvertised.

[GreyRogue]

The OP doesn't have enough info in it to know what specific items are involved, but I would point out that there was an unadvertised sale on a great number of items in the store during the headstart period. Many things were 25% off, which brought them to around the Lammania prices, even though the non-sale price had been adjusted. Ending a sale, then starting another sale is not fraud. In any case, even if everything in the OP is the completely unvarnished truth, it would not necessarily fall under any legal definition of fraud or deceptive marketing practices. Turbine is allowed to change the price on items in its store, either permanently or as part of a temporary sale. The full-price cost and sale cost are both available in the store for the customer's inspection. The thing that would show fraudulent intent would be if the normal price dropped back down after the end of the sale. Without that, you just have Turbine basically being nice by allowing customers a little bit longer to purchase the items at the old price before it goes up.

EDIT: Wow, Talish and Oberon said what I wanted to say but in a lot fewer words!

[Xaearth]

If you're referring to huge bags (which I suspect to be the case), the price before the sale was not 521 TP, it was 595. That's an important distinction.

Now, after the sale, they are marked down 25% off at 521 TP... Notice the price before the discount - 695 TP.
Is it shady business? Perhaps, but it could just as likely have been a typo on the original price.

[Ulurjah]

erm. For these items you are alleging that Turbine "raised the price on" when you purchased them the first week, did you happen to check the pricing in the checkout screen? I noticed that for a lot of items, on the final purchase screen, the base price was higher, and I got the sale price. Unless you have a comprehensive price list from release, you can't really claim that the prices were raised, as the price that showed during the first week may have been sale pricing, just unadvertised.

Which is exactly what I'm saying. The pricing scale isn't actually posted anywhere. There's no notification when prices change anywhere. There's no "log" of what prices were at any given point, other than player memory. Because of this, there is now a situation where it "appears" that things have been handled somewhat fraudulently.

If you're referring to huge bags (which I suspect to be the case), the price before the sale was not 521 TP, it was 595. That's an important distinction.

Now, after the sale, they are marked down 25% off at 521 TP... Notice the price before the discount - 695 TP.
Is it shady business? Perhaps, but it could just as likely have been a typo on the original price.

Interesting ... I'll have to log in and check my log. I was fairly sure that I paid 521 for the two bags I purchased on 09/01/09.


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And if the "Huge bag" example is just a matter of perception (completely possible, without any documentation it's all in the eye of the beholder) ... the rest of the original post is still a problem. Points not being awarded, account support inquiries being ignored for days (some players report weeks) ... those things are still going on. Consider that someone who was waiting for their 500 points for the month to finally be awarded so they could purchase a huge collectible's bag without getting out their credit card and purchasing a point block ... now with the patch and the nerf to those bags, they won't get the same value for their points if they choose to purchase the bag as someone else who got the bag before the nerf.

In this case, the player was robbed of having a very convenient item by Turbine withholding points owed to the player.

Marketroid posted that an account is credited the 500 points when the credit card is billed for the month's subscription, and yet this has been reported to not be true. This is deceptive, as some folks are on record as having been waiting for their points to be credited to make a purchase, and now are locked out forever from getting the item they wanted ...

[KoboldKiller]

They have a real world cost do they not? That's all it takes to meet the definition of fraud. Yes, this is on a very small scale (probably less than a couple dollars) ... but it's on a massive scale. If 10,000 players take advantage of the "sale" and are defrauded out of $1.50 worth of turbine points each, that's $15,000 ... and Turbine was bragging that "millions upon millions" of turbine points were sold during the VIP preview days.

They may have a real world value if you purchased said points or if you could sell your points but nobody is forcing you to buy them. They are technically virtual currency. this happens in the real world on a daily basis. Car prices increase all the time and then they are put on sale. Milk prices change all the time and then get put on sale. markets fluctuate that's the nature of business.

[Gamedog]

Where's my lawyer...I mean lairer....gonna see what part of turbine I can own.

[Ulurjah]

Where's my lawyer...I mean lairer....gonna see what part of turbine I can own.

Come on now, that's missing the point. I was trying to point out that right now is not the time for Turbine to operate in grey areas. People not being given points they are owed and their support inquiries going unanswered for days/weeks ... manipulative pricing that borders on fraud (again, in the eye of the beholder).

Right now, Turbine should reasonably be expected to be on their "best behavior" as it were. Everything should be clear to the players so that nobody feels cheated. Support inquiries should be answered same day (even if that means temp hiring some CS people. After all, they did brag that "millions upon millions" of turbine points had been purchased during the head start. Let's do the math. "Millions upon Millions" means at the very least 4 million points. At one penny per point (and they cost more than that), that's at least $40,000 in revenue that week, just from sale of turbine points, above and beyond all other revenue (subs). That's a low ball figure too!).

Players should be getting the points owed them without serious and long delays. I, personally, am still owed the 999 points and my veteran reward 400 points. My support inquiry has gone unanswered. In addition, my billing date was 31AUG2009 ... a day which the servers were offline the entire day for DDO:EU. To me, that means DDO:EU started that day. I haven't been credited a day on my billing cycle for that day ... I'm expected to just "eat" it. I also didn't get 500 points for this month because only people billed on 01SEP2009 or later were considered "eligible" for that.

Right now, Turbine owes me at least 1399 points outstanding, and have ignored my support request.

My entire point is that right now is the time for Turbine to be putting on their best. It's not time to be manipulating things and doing things that can appear to the players to be shady.

[Robi3.0]

I personally have spent a lot of time in the store. I don't know what you bought or are use as a example but I can honestly say that I have never seen something for sale in the store for 521 at wasn't discounted. 695 on the other hand is a price that fits with the store's pricing scheme. A lot of the store was on sale during headstart, more then likely what you saw that cost 521 was on sale at the time.

The problem with the store is you can't see that an item is on sale until you click on it for more info or add it to your chart.


In short when window shopping do more then just glance, so that you know exactly what you are getting for what. Sorry the shop has brought you confusion.

[Ulurjah]

I personally have spent a lot of time in the store. I don't know what you bought or are use as a example but I can honestly say that I have never seen something for sale in the store for 521 at wasn't discounted. 695 on the other hand is a price that fits with the store's pricing scheme. A lot of the store was on sale during headstart, more then likely what you saw that cost 521 was on sale at the time.

The problem with the store is you can't see that an item is on sale until you click on it for more info or add it to your chart.


In short when window shopping do more then just glance, so that you know exactly what you are getting for what. Sorry the shop has brought you confusion.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. A lot of times you don't realize the item was discounted until you get to the checkout phase of the transaction. I wish the only problem right now was the store pricing fluctuations. To me, that's not even the largest problem when it comes to the turbine store and turbine points. If you read the rest of my post and my most recent follow-up post before this one, you'll see what I mean.

[Hafeal]

I swear I must be squelched everywhere or everyone really ignores all my posts!

OP, you are correct - and here is my thread on it from Monday: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200650

Robi - it has happened, with HUGE bags in particular. I know because I went to buy after having bought one about a week ago for 595. I notced they were "on sale" at 25% for 521. Huh? They had a marked normal price of 695. I come on the forums start my thread and even sent a PM to Quartermaster [edit: no he never did respond].

Then TODAY, at noon, I logon after the update, and low and behold HUGE bags are back to 595.

The problem is that without a formal mechanism to track pricing [edit: for players] - it is easy (and no doubt tempting) for Turbine to play games with the prices. As for them being digital bits - I still think they could be subject to the very laws that prevent retailers from doing the same manipulation. I actually think it is worth considering a class action lawsuit if Turbine keeps this up.

I can only guess they are at least lying low for now to see how closely players monitor the prices. I have tried to keep them up-to-date on my spreadsheet but it takes time and I haven't been as diligent as I might like - especially when I would rather play.

I personally have spent a lot of time in the store. I don't know what you bought or are use as a example but I can honestly say that I have never seen something for sale in the store for 521 at wasn't discounted. 695 on the other hand is a price that fits with the store's pricing scheme. A lot of the store was on sale during headstart, more then likely what you saw that cost 521 was on sale at the time.

The problem with the store is you can't see that an item is on sale until you click on it for more info or add it to your chart.


In short when window shopping do more then just glance, so that you know exactly what you are getting for what. Sorry the shop has brought you confusion.

[Ulurjah]

Hafeal, I read your post earlier. Since it corresponded with my own experience, and since I had the other issues with how turbine is handling the points/store system, I thought a new thread covering all of it would be warranted.

Some of the more voracious fanboy's have already replied and tried to make me look ridiculous. To them, I would say review my post history. It's not exceptionally long, and you will likely find me defending Turbine all over the place in it. I don't make up my mind about issues based upon whether I like or am "loyal" to Turbine. When I think they're being unfairly attacked, I step in and say so. When I think they're doing something wrong, I step in and say so.

With these issues, they are, at the very least, doing a terrible job of customer service. At the worst, they are intentionally defrauding people. It's probably somewhere in between. Their job is to make money, and I'm totally cool with that. I would just like for them to be clear and honest about it.

[Robi3.0]

Yeah, I noticed that as well. A lot of times you don't realize the item was discounted until you get to the checkout phase of the transaction. I wish the only problem right now was the store pricing fluctuations. To me, that's not even the largest problem when it comes to the turbine store and turbine points. If you read the rest of my post and my most recent follow-up post before this one, you'll see what I mean.

Well that will teach me to try to post while making dinner and not refresh before hitting submit.

I don't think Turbine is intentionally withholding points. I have gotten all of mine, but who knows I honestly can't say for sure.

I don't think the whole bag thing, is something that anyone needs to be upset about. Everyone that bought one before the patch gets a BtA bag. Anyone else gets the lesser version. Sure a lot of people missed out and some probably because of missing points. You can hardly calling missing an opportunity fraud. It may be infuriating but it is not fraud. No one is making anyone by the bags with the perceived lesser value.

In fact if a boycott of bag purchases was organized and Turbine started not selling any bags they may change them back. The nerf was most assuredly a grab for money. If they don't make any money from it they may reconsider.

As long as Turbine distributes all owed points in a timely manner I don't think there is any legal consequences to be had. That isn't to say there wont be any consequences Turbine has been on a slippery with the DDO consumer base for a while. This may push a lot of people over the edge.

[Ulurjah]

As long as Turbine distributes all owed points in a timely manner I don't think there is any legal consequences to be had. That isn't to say there wont be any consequences Turbine has been on a slippery with the DDO consumer base for a while. This may push a lot of people over the edge.

What would you consider a timely manner? It's now the 17th day I've had access to DDO:EU, and they still owe me 1399 points. Do you think that more than two weeks later is still within a "timely" sort of time frame?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I'm not sure changing prices of in game virtual items would fall under fraud.

On another note, seeing as it is just virtual items and bought with virtual points not real money, as well as Turbine is the only one who can set the market price. Saying they jacked up the price only to put it on sale is really their discretion. Maybe they decided the original price was too low initially. After the sale is over then it returns to the higher price they set.

Given that the prices are based on REAL cash and not in game currency the false advertising claims would apply. The fact that the cash stops as points makes no difference. There have been legal claims based on airline miles that prove that and they weren't even originally based on cash, the fact that they have value is enough.

[Mockduck]

I don't have too much to say about this thread, but I don't think a lawsuit would get anyone anywhere. My guess is that there's fine print somewhere when you buy Turbine Points that the real-life money is being exchanged for Turbine Points, not in-game products. And I bet there's fine print somewhere enabling Turbine to alter the ratio of its points and the cost of products at any time. So, when you buy or acquire points, you agree to said changes.

It's bad form to do pricing like this without notice, but certainly not lawsuit-worthy.