why the change with TWF?

[Roman]

Not sure I agree with your conclusion.

You preserve your attack chain while tumbling. As Yargore pointed out, you miss a lot of attacks by moving and breaking the chain.

[bobbryan2]

Tempest III seems to be a huge advantage now. With the new stand and deliver autoattack approach to combat, what deep multiclass combination can possibly match the extra attack from Tempest III that will yield an extra 30-150+ dmg per round?

Seems like TwF without 18 ranger is a bit gimp now.

You're coming to some pretty game altering conclusions without really trying the changes out. Tempest III was already giving an extra attack before they normalized the attack rates. Nothing has really changed except that Tempest III comes up every 4 hits instead of every 5.

Don't try to figure out the metagaming implications with pure theory. It often leads to over-adjusting to game changes and developing less than optimal strategies. TWF benefits standing still now... so start out with trying to stand still. Don't over invest in ideas like tumbling, stunning blow, paralyzers in the like... just start with standing still.

[Yargore]

Tempest III seems to be a huge advantage now. With the new stand and deliver autoattack approach to combat, what deep multiclass combination can possibly match the extra attack from Tempest III that will yield an extra 30-150+ dmg per round?

Seems like TwF without 18 ranger is a bit gimp now.

Pure fighter and Monster probably. I'm not sure though.
Haste boost adds alot to your DPS.

[Gum]

The twf attack style is alot more like the old days mod 1-3 for twf. Back then twf melee rarely had spring attack and the mobs were harder to hit so DDO twf was about rushing right up to a mob and then attacking in a stationary position. This is what twf melee is again going to be alot of moving to a spot and spamming attacks. Dealing with moving mobs will be definitely more annoying, but you can use terrain, other players, tactics(stunning blow for instance), etc to compensate.

Monk FTW

[bobbryan2]

You preserve your attack chain while tumbling. As Yargore pointed out, you miss a lot of attacks by moving and breaking the chain.

Tumbling takes time. How much time do you lose by tumbling? Your conclusions aren't well-thought out enough. Tumbling is far too time intensive in this game to be useful in its current incarnation.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

power attack, is capped at 5 as well.

Don't know what you mean by that.

PA on THF = +10 damage

PA on TWF = +5 damage both hands == +10 damage

Just like it is in PNP

[Femanon]

How was THF always better than TwF?

It requires less feats and does more damage, what more could you possibly want?

[bobbryan2]

Don't know what you mean by that.

PA on THF = +10 damage

PA on TWF = +5 damage both hands == +10 damage

Just like it is in PNP

He probably means that it is capped at taking 5 away from your "to hit" and added to your damage (double for THF)... which is mostly true. It's capped at 8 for WF currently.

But I'm not sure why power attack is entering into the discussion at all. It's a wash for THF and TWF anyway.

EDIT: Well... was. I suppose that now that you get 125% of hooks for an attack chain, power attack actually benefits TWF more now.

[maddmatt70]

You're coming to some pretty game altering conclusions without really trying the changes out. Tempest III was already giving an extra attack before they normalized the attack rates. Nothing has really changed except that Tempest III comes up every 4 hits instead of every 5.

I do think rangers got a little bump, but nothing that huge really especially since I was beginning to think fighters and the other classes did more dps then rangers this mod.

Don't try to figure out the metagaming implications with pure theory. It often leads to over-adjusting to game changes and developing less than optimal strategies. TWF benefits standing still now... so start out with trying to stand still. Don't over invest in ideas like tumbling, stunning blow, paralyzers in the like... just start with standing still.

Agreed although I do think stunning blow for a twf is a better tactic on trash then it was. Rush up hit a stunning blow on first attack especially against enemy archer or enemy spellcaster and then just stand and swing. Tumbling is even worse with these changes because you are constantly moving and attacking and losing attacks in the process.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

It requires less feats and does more damage, what more could you possibly want?

Less damage per second and requires the same amount of feats.

Please repeat with me:
This is NOT pnp, this is NOT pnp, this is NOT pnp.

[Yargore]

It requires less feats and does more damage, what more could you possibly want?

It doesn't do more damage, not now, not ever (ok perhaps in mod 1-2, I don't remember).

TWF gains more from the feats than THF, but I don't see how that's a bad thing?

[Absolute-Omniscience]

He probably means that it is capped at taking 5 away from your "to hit" and added to your damage (double for THF)... which is mostly true. It's capped at 8 for WF currently.

But I'm not sure why power attack is entering into the discussion at all. It's a wash for THF and TWF anyway.

EDIT: Well... was. I suppose that now that you get 125% of hooks for an attack chain, power attack actually benefits TWF more now.

Exactly, my point is that it doesn't cap at 5. It caps at 11 for wf barbs, 8 for wf, 8 for barbs.

Yep, now the PA for twf is 11,25.

[Roman]

Tumbling takes time. How much time do you lose by tumbling? Your conclusions aren't well-thought out enough. Tumbling is far too time intensive in this game to be useful in its current incarnation.

A tumble skill of 35 results in 125% increase vs. run speed. So how is it more time consuming to tumble vs run? not only does it take 25% less time to cover the distance, but you also preserve your attack chain and don't lose DPS.

Please read this thread. You don't seem to understand what your talking about.

[bobbryan2]

A tumble skill of 35 results in 125% increase vs. run speed. So how is it more time consuming to tumble vs run? not only does it take 25% less time to cover the distance, but you also preserve your attack chain and don't lose DPS.

Please read this thread. You don't seem to understand how it works very well.

Ooh, rolled a natural 1 on your check...

I will answer your question with another question, and give you another chance at a roll. Can you attack while tumbling?

[Roman]

You're coming to some pretty game altering conclusions without really trying the changes out. Tempest III was already giving an extra attack before they normalized the attack rates. Nothing has really changed except that Tempest III comes up every 4 hits instead of every 5.

Don't try to figure out the metagaming implications with pure theory. It often leads to over-adjusting to game changes and developing less than optimal strategies. TWF benefits standing still now... so start out with trying to stand still. Don't over invest in ideas like tumbling, stunning blow, paralyzers in the like... just start with standing still.

Standing still = less movement
Stunning blow = less movement
Paralyzer = less movement
Less movement = more DPS

Standing Still, Stunning Blow, Paralyzer = More DPS due to less movement.

Where is the fallacy of logic in that?

[bobbryan2]

Exactly, my point is that it doesn't cap at 5. It caps at 11 for wf barbs, 8 for wf, 8 for barbs.

Yep, now the PA for twf is 11,25.

It's not that clearcut, unfortunately. As power attack adds to base damage, having power attack on will make for more powerful glancing blows.

I think it will still benefit TWF, but it's not a clearcut 12% bonus for TWF.

[bobbryan2]

Standing still = less movement
Stunning blow = less movement
Paralyzer = less movement
Less movement = more DPS

Standing Still, Stunning Blow, Paralyzer = More DPS due to less movement.

Where is the fallacy of logic in that?

Where is the fallacy of logic in that?

Let's see. Oh yes. When using a paralyzer, you are kept from using greensteel. Not Using greensteel = less DPS.

Again, you're using pure theory and half facts to derive metagaming implications. Don't do that. It's more than probable that standing still with greensteel will be far more effective than standing still with a paralyzer.

[Roman]

Ooh, rolled a natural 1 on your check...

I will answer your question with another question, and give you another chance at a roll. Can you attack while tumbling?

Use your noodle man.

The only reason to tumble is because the mod has moved out of attack range, or you need to move to the next nearest engagement. So answer the question, how is tumbeling more time consuming or inferior to not tumbling?

[Yargore]

Use your noodle man.

The only reason to tumble is because the mod has moved out of attack range, or you need to move to the next nearest engagement. So answer the question, how is tumbeling more time consuming or inferior to not tumbling?

Just jump...

[bobbryan2]

Use your noodle man.

The only reason to tumble is because the mod has moved out of attack range, or you need to move to the next nearest engagement. So answer the question, how is tumbeling more time consuming or inferior to not tumbling?

Oh... missed another roll. The answer of course is that you can attack while running, but that you can't attack while tumbling. So when the enemy is in a state of transition, you are given the choice to tumble after him and do nothing or run after him and do (admittedly less than optimal) damage.

I'll take the damage the enemy option over the no damage option any day.