Patch Notes - Hope for the future?

[Dretharis]

NEW - During PVP, players with the Invisibility spell cast on them can still be seen by opponent players.

It's listed under issues... So it's officially considered an issue, which they intend to fix?

I need to go change my pants.

Assuming they fix sneaking as well, does that mean we might see some more diverse, balanced PvP? While heavy fort's still an issue, melee characters might be able to approach while stealthed to get in that initial trip. I'm not sure how much of an impact this would make as I haven't played around with PvP that much, but regardless it piques my interest, as they seem to be willing to throw us a few bones.

[Strakeln]

Haven't been PvPing in a while, but last I recall, floaty names still showed up over sneaking/invisible characters. You can be invisible, but if I see your name, I know where you are!

[Dretharis]

Haven't been PvPing in a while, but last I recall, floaty names still showed up over sneaking/invisible characters. You can be invisible, but if I see your name, I know where you are!

Yes, but the patch notes/outstanding issues imply they want to fix that, correct?

[Lithic]

That known issue is a typo. It should really read:

New: PvP occasional is mentioned at development meetings. This should be fixed soon as we intend to impliment a 500$ fine to anyone who mentions the word "PvP".

As it should be

[Strakeln]

Yes, but the patch notes/outstanding issues imply they want to fix that, correct?

That's what I've been telling myself for over two years now

[Uska]

I hope they waste not a nano second on pvp

[Memnir]

They'll fix this issue just after they get those Leader Boards working, I'm sure.

[Dretharis]

I hope they waste not a nano second on pvp

I think you're just about the biggest troll I've ever met. I don't post very often, I mostly just lurk - but every single post I've seen with the slightest mention of PvP, you post about how much you hate it, and spout the usual rhetoric that it's a waste of the dev's time. We get it. You haven't added anything new to the discussion that I've seen since I quit the game last time, about a year or two ago. I'm surprised you didn't post two or three times in a row for emphasis as usual. Lithic's bad as well, but not nearly as much as yourself.

They've been using that time valuably, haven't they? The last patch managed to break more things than it fixed. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're trying to address these issues - attack speed and mouselook warping were both significant problems which needed to be attended to. Whether they've had a cut in funding, they're understaffed due to layoffs, or there's simply too much internal bickering is irrelevant, however - the few issues which they seem to address aren't being done so timely, or adequately.

I agree there are a lot of things which need to be fixed before PvP:
-The scaling system needs to be fixed as soon as humanly possible so newer players aren't forced to solo/duo
-The favor system needs to be reevaluated, in particular the 1750 reward
-Ranged needs to be revamped to be more synergistic or at least compatabile with other combat styles
-The latest issues from the last patch need to be fixed immediately to retain new customer faith
-The economy could use an overhaul to allow for newer players to operate on a level that isn't completely inadequate for many veterans (primarily regarding the cost of consumables) and reduce the massive inflation
-Many of the new items need to be fixed so they stack with current gear, several skills could be implemented better
-The store needs another look at to be less deceptive/discouraging for newer players (+1 items? Really?)
-Many class/gear bugs still need to be addressed

That's the approximate order I'd address things in, with PvP coming in at the bottom - bugs and actively discouraging "features" are a critical issue right now, as DDO is being introduced to so many new players right now and needs to make a good impression. As well, they need to continue with standard development for quests/features, if only as a good faith gesture for the old and new player base.

PvP comes after all that - frankly, I'd like it to come before a few of those things, but it's more important that the game is successful than I enjoy it individually, as long as it comes eventually. They're definitely doing some things right - I think the current VIP/Prem/F2P system is a great move, and some of the smaller changes we've seen (such as the actual spell descriptions included for charge items/scrolls, map improvements, NPC movements, etc) are much bigger than they seem - I'm very, very glad to see that kind of stuff, as it makes it easier for people to get into the game. It just seems like either there isn't enough development staff, or the leadership is fractured and indecisive.

The solution?

I'd say if anything, they should hire some of the more research/data oriented forum personalities, such as Borr0 and Impaqt, and have those individuals work as a temporary think-tank to prioritize and address the current outstanding issues for DDO, and then follow through to fix those issues. Some of the things we see released look as if they weren't even playtested, yet they have players who test and study these releases to the point that they become practical walking lexicons of technical game data - and those players are already doing that for free. They could probably even pay them in raid loot or special hats ingame or something.

Now that we've got all that out of the way, I'll say it plainly - please, just stop posting in PvP threads. You've made it clear you don't like it. I don't like a lot of things they spend time on either - I don't like the capstone concept, I don't like quite a few of the PrE's, I don't like time spent on graphical changes/updates, and I don't like all the focus we see spent on the fanart/poster contests. I dislike favored souls, the crafting system, and stupid PR junk such as "Talk Like a Pirate Day" - and I'll throw puppies and kittens in there too just to seem intimidating.

However, I understand that some people enjoy those things, so I let them have fun. It's an MMORPG, not a single player game - development considerations extend far beyond the individual, especially if they're looking to expand to new players. Myself and others have been more than accommodating in providing reasonable suggestions for PvP implementation so that it would never interfere or dominate questing, or even be noticed if you weren't interested. You've responded worse than a surly dwarf.

[96th_Malice]

I hope they waste not a nano second on pvp

I pay the exact same amount as you do to play per month .... as does he ... and I'd like to see some time put into PvP as well

For the peeps that don't like PvP ( such as yourself ) ... why the heck do you even come in here ?

Wont see me in the Sorc forums !!



Just my 2 cents

Later

[Melkor_The_Mighty]

I think you're just about the biggest troll I've ever met. I don't post very often, I mostly just lurk - but every single post I've seen with the slightest mention of PvP, you post about how much you hate it, and spout the usual rhetoric that it's a waste of the dev's time. We get it. You haven't added anything new to the discussion that I've seen since I quit the game last time, about a year or two ago. I'm surprised you didn't post two or three times in a row for emphasis as usual. Lithic's bad as well, but not nearly as much as yourself.

They've been using that time valuably, haven't they? The last patch managed to break more things than it fixed. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're trying to address these issues - attack speed and mouselook warping were both significant problems which needed to be attended to. Whether they've had a cut in funding, they're understaffed due to layoffs, or there's simply too much internal bickering is irrelevant, however - the few issues which they seem to address aren't being done so timely, or adequately.


I agree there are a lot of things which need to be fixed before PvP:
-The scaling system needs to be fixed as soon as humanly possible so newer players aren't forced to solo/duo
-The favor system needs to be reevaluated, in particular the 1750 reward
-Ranged needs to be revamped to be more synergistic or at least compatabile with other combat styles
-The latest issues from the last patch need to be fixed immediately to retain new customer faith
-The economy could use an overhaul to allow for newer players to operate on a level that isn't completely inadequate for many veterans (primarily regarding the cost of consumables) and reduce the massive inflation
-Many of the new items need to be fixed so they stack with current gear, several skills could be implemented better
-The store needs another look at to be less deceptive/discouraging for newer players (+1 items? Really?)
-Many class/gear bugs still need to be addressed

That's the approximate order I'd address things in, with PvP coming in at the bottom - bugs and actively discouraging "features" are a critical issue right now, as DDO is being introduced to so many new players right now and needs to make a good impression. As well, they need to continue with standard development for quests/features, if only as a good faith gesture for the old and new player base.

PvP comes after all that - frankly, I'd like it to come before a few of those things, but it's more important that the game is successful than I enjoy it individually, as long as it comes eventually. They're definitely doing some things right - I think the current VIP/Prem/F2P system is a great move, and some of the smaller changes we've seen (such as the actual spell descriptions included for charge items/scrolls, map improvements, NPC movements, etc) are much bigger than they seem - I'm very, very glad to see that kind of stuff, as it makes it easier for people to get into the game. It just seems like either there isn't enough development staff, or the leadership is fractured and indecisive.

The solution?

I'd say if anything, they should hire some of the more research/data oriented forum personalities, such as Borr0 and Impaqt, and have those individuals work as a temporary think-tank to prioritize and address the current outstanding issues for DDO, and then follow through to fix those issues. Some of the things we see released look as if they weren't even playtested, yet they have players who test and study these releases to the point that they become practical walking lexicons of technical game data - and those players are already doing that for free. They could probably even pay them in raid loot or special hats ingame or something.

Now that we've got all that out of the way, I'll say it plainly - please, just stop posting in PvP threads. You've made it clear you don't like it. I don't like a lot of things they spend time on either - I don't like the capstone concept, I don't like quite a few of the PrE's, I don't like time spent on graphical changes/updates, and I don't like all the focus we see spent on the fanart/poster contests. I dislike favored souls, the crafting system, and stupid PR junk such as "Talk Like a Pirate Day" - and I'll throw puppies and kittens in there too just to seem intimidating.

However, I understand that some people enjoy those things, so I let them have fun. It's an MMORPG, not a single player game - development considerations extend far beyond the individual, especially if they're looking to expand to new players. Myself and others have been more than accommodating in providing reasonable suggestions for PvP implementation so that it would never interfere or dominate questing, or even be noticed if you weren't interested. You've responded worse than a surly dwarf.

Well Said

+4,462,830 Rep ( 1 rep on behalf of every person who likes PvP in any MMO)

[BoBoDaClown]

I think you're just about the biggest troll I've ever met. I don't post very often, I mostly just lurk - but every single post I've seen with the slightest mention of PvP, you post about how much you hate it, and spout the usual rhetoric that it's a waste of the dev's time. We get it. You haven't added anything new to the discussion that I've seen since I quit the game last time, about a year or two ago. I'm surprised you didn't post two or three times in a row for emphasis as usual. Lithic's bad as well, but not nearly as much as yourself.

They've been using that time valuably, haven't they? The last patch managed to break more things than it fixed. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're trying to address these issues - attack speed and mouselook warping were both significant problems which needed to be attended to. Whether they've had a cut in funding, they're understaffed due to layoffs, or there's simply too much internal bickering is irrelevant, however - the few issues which they seem to address aren't being done so timely, or adequately.

I agree there are a lot of things which need to be fixed before PvP:
-The scaling system needs to be fixed as soon as humanly possible so newer players aren't forced to solo/duo
-The favor system needs to be reevaluated, in particular the 1750 reward
-Ranged needs to be revamped to be more synergistic or at least compatabile with other combat styles
-The latest issues from the last patch need to be fixed immediately to retain new customer faith
-The economy could use an overhaul to allow for newer players to operate on a level that isn't completely inadequate for many veterans (primarily regarding the cost of consumables) and reduce the massive inflation
-Many of the new items need to be fixed so they stack with current gear, several skills could be implemented better
-The store needs another look at to be less deceptive/discouraging for newer players (+1 items? Really?)
-Many class/gear bugs still need to be addressed

That's the approximate order I'd address things in, with PvP coming in at the bottom - bugs and actively discouraging "features" are a critical issue right now, as DDO is being introduced to so many new players right now and needs to make a good impression. As well, they need to continue with standard development for quests/features, if only as a good faith gesture for the old and new player base.

PvP comes after all that - frankly, I'd like it to come before a few of those things, but it's more important that the game is successful than I enjoy it individually, as long as it comes eventually. They're definitely doing some things right - I think the current VIP/Prem/F2P system is a great move, and some of the smaller changes we've seen (such as the actual spell descriptions included for charge items/scrolls, map improvements, NPC movements, etc) are much bigger than they seem - I'm very, very glad to see that kind of stuff, as it makes it easier for people to get into the game. It just seems like either there isn't enough development staff, or the leadership is fractured and indecisive.

The solution?

I'd say if anything, they should hire some of the more research/data oriented forum personalities, such as Borr0 and Impaqt, and have those individuals work as a temporary think-tank to prioritize and address the current outstanding issues for DDO, and then follow through to fix those issues. Some of the things we see released look as if they weren't even playtested, yet they have players who test and study these releases to the point that they become practical walking lexicons of technical game data - and those players are already doing that for free. They could probably even pay them in raid loot or special hats ingame or something.

Now that we've got all that out of the way, I'll say it plainly - please, just stop posting in PvP threads. You've made it clear you don't like it. I don't like a lot of things they spend time on either - I don't like the capstone concept, I don't like quite a few of the PrE's, I don't like time spent on graphical changes/updates, and I don't like all the focus we see spent on the fanart/poster contests. I dislike favored souls, the crafting system, and stupid PR junk such as "Talk Like a Pirate Day" - and I'll throw puppies and kittens in there too just to seem intimidating.

However, I understand that some people enjoy those things, so I let them have fun. It's an MMORPG, not a single player game - development considerations extend far beyond the individual, especially if they're looking to expand to new players. Myself and others have been more than accommodating in providing reasonable suggestions for PvP implementation so that it would never interfere or dominate questing, or even be noticed if you weren't interested. You've responded worse than a surly dwarf.

Agreed.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

They'll fix this issue just after they get those Leader Boards working, I'm sure.

The leaderboard is broke?!?!?!? ***?!?!? When did that happen?

I hope you bug reported it.

(please note the heavy, heavy sarcasm)

[quickgrif]

This is the reason why I hope they don't focus on it. Not because its a time sink for the devs (which it is). Or the fact it would mess with the game balance if implemented (which it would). The main fact is anytime someone gives an honest reason as why they do not hope it happens the pvpers come in here and belittle and name call those people. Yes pvp can be fun in a game but this game is not designed around it. To sink resources into pvp when those other problems remain which are what the game is designed around is silly.

[DoctorWhofan]

Well Said

+4,462,830 Rep ( 1 rep on behalf of every person who likes PvP in any MMO)

And everything you say we ALL take with a HUGE grain of salt.

For me, PvP shouldn't be in the game. I would rather have new quests than PvP.

BUT IF, and I mean with a BIG IF, they do, It should NO WAY influence PvE, nor should it mean anything to leveling, change how the classes work, have unique items, or anything like that. Just bragging rights.

BEcause if it does become an reward system, this game will become WoW, with a better graphics and combat system. The lack of repect for people and other peope's feelings will be the norm and, quite frankly if I wanted that, I would go back to WoW and continue to get ganked on my level 20 hunter in the Barrens by level 60+ Alliance members. So much fun.

[DoctorWhofan]

I think you're just about the biggest troll I've ever met.

I dunno, I he seems nice. I can think of worse Troll baits.

I don't post very often, I mostly just lurk - but every single post I've seen with the slightest mention of PvP, you post about how much you hate it, and spout the usual rhetoric that it's a waste of the dev's time. We get it. You haven't added anything new to the discussion that I've seen since I quit the game last time, about a year or two ago. I'm surprised you didn't post two or three times in a row for emphasis as usual. Lithic's bad as well, but not nearly as much as yourself.

They've been using that time valuably, haven't they? The last patch managed to break more things than it fixed. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're trying to address these issues - attack speed and mouselook warping were both significant problems which needed to be attended to. Whether they've had a cut in funding, they're understaffed due to layoffs, or there's simply too much internal bickering is irrelevant, however - the few issues which they seem to address aren't being done so timely, or adequately.

I agree there are a lot of things which need to be fixed before PvP:
-The scaling system needs to be fixed as soon as humanly possible so newer players aren't forced to solo/duo YES. They need to team up. Then again, a chorus of "I hate DDO" can be heard too.
-The favor system needs to be reevaluated, in particular the 1750 reward I disagree. But that is neither here or there.
-Ranged needs to be revamped to be more synergistic or at least compatabile with other combat styles yup.
-The latest issues from the last patch need to be fixed immediately to retain new customer faith yes
-The economy could use an overhaul to allow for newer players to operate on a level that isn't completely inadequate for many veterans (primarily regarding the cost of consumables) and reduce the massive inflation I dunno about that. THat's another thread, though.
-Many of the new items need to be fixed so they stack with current gear, several skills could be implemented better
mostly agree
-The store needs another look at to be less deceptive/discouraging for newer players (+1 items? Really?) YES
-Many class/gear bugs still need to be addressed yes.


ANd adding the Atari vs Turbine needs to be cleared up also.

That's the approximate order I'd address things in, with PvP coming in at the bottom -
bugs and actively discouraging "features" are a critical issue right now, as DDO is being introduced to so many new players right now and needs to make a good impression. As well, they need to continue with standard development for quests/features, if only as a good faith gesture for the old and new player base.

...making you intelligent, unlike most supporters of PvP. Turbine has a problem keeping release dates. Until that is done, I expect nothing "extra" should be added. And PvP is extra.

PvP comes after all that - frankly, I'd like it to come before a few of those things, but it's more important that the game is successful than I enjoy it individually, as long as it comes eventually. They're definitely doing some things right - I think the current VIP/Prem/F2P system is a great move, and some of the smaller changes we've seen (such as the actual spell descriptions included for charge items/scrolls, map improvements, NPC movements, etc) are much bigger than they seem - I'm very, very glad to see that kind of stuff, as it makes it easier for people to get into the game. It just seems like either there isn't enough development staff, or the leadership is fractured and indecisive.

still with ya.

The solution?

I'd say if anything, they should hire some of the more research/data oriented forum personalities, such as Borr0 and Impaqt, and have those individuals work as a temporary think-tank to prioritize and address the current outstanding issues for DDO, and then follow through to fix those issues. Some of the things we see released look as if they weren't even playtested, yet they have players who test and study these releases to the point that they become practical walking lexicons of technical game data - and those players are already doing that for free. They could probably even pay them in raid loot or special hats ingame or something.

BOrror0 wants a pony, a French Canadian one... J/k, but non-gimp Pallys would make him happy. And a Hug. Impaqt wants clerical stuff, as do I.

Now that we've got all that out of the way, I'll say it plainly - please, just stop posting in PvP threads. You've made it clear you don't like it.

Neither do I. But I post cuz there are idiots who want PvP who don't need to HAVE pvp. THey would abuse it. If everyone thought like you who likes PvP, I'd say, "sure, I'd try it" but alas, morons exist, and most are camped out on your side of the house. Sorry.

I don't like a lot of things they spend time on either - I don't like the capstone concept, I don't like quite a few of the PrE's, I don't like time spent on graphical changes/updates, and I don't like all the focus we see spent on the fanart/poster contests. I dislike favored souls, the crafting system, and stupid PR junk such as "Talk Like a Pirate Day" - and I'll throw puppies and kittens in there too just to seem intimidating.

I disagree with you on most of that. BUt it is your opinion.

However, I understand that some people enjoy those things, so I let them have fun. It's an MMORPG, not a single player game - development considerations extend far beyond the individual, especially if they're looking to expand to new players.

Tell that to the PvPers that all they talk about is pwning noobs. As it has been said before, many of us FLED other MMOs because of the importance of PvP on those other games.

Myself and others have been more than accommodating in providing reasonable suggestions for PvP implementation so that it would never interfere or dominate questing, or even be noticed if you weren't interested. You've responded worse than a surly dwarf.

In Lime.


ALso, reitierating that while you seem like a reasonable guy, most posts for PvP have not been very reasonable. In fact, they sound like "I pwnz noobs!" crowd and their. well, overenthusastic threads and postings to us prove that PvP shouldn't be here because many of us feel it will be a huge pwnfest and thegame we love ceases to be fun.

[Borror0]

For me, PvP shouldn't be in the game. I would rather have new quests than PvP.

Well, it's probably not a bad thing to introduce PvP as a small minigame for the handful of players who could enjoy it depending on the time it takes to make the small additions. However, it would be a mistake to invest too many resources into it.

Turbine has only so many resources and they have to spend it to please their audience.

If they spread themselves too thin, they'll find themselves not meeting the needs of anyone and that is a problem. It is a much more sound strategy to focus your efforts on what you believe makes your game stand out and continually improve it. It's not necessarily a bad idea to try to appeal to a greater audience but PvP is the kind of feature that drain a lot of developer resources. Even with the use resources Blizzard have, they can barely pull off the efforts that having a PvE and PvP game represents.

I agree there are a lot of things which need to be fixed before PvP:

I love that list. The extensive amount of work required to pull off even just half of that list just supports my above point, however.

[Uska]

In Lime.


ALso, reitierating that while you seem like a reasonable guy, most posts for PvP have not been very reasonable. In fact, they sound like "I pwnz noobs!" crowd and their. well, overenthusastic threads and postings to us prove that PvP shouldn't be here because many of us feel it will be a huge pwnfest and thegame we love ceases to be fun.

I know I am breaking my rule again but I just have to say that this poster(DoctorWhofan) has to be one of my faves and I am sure lots think that way she is always kind and thoughtful and we are lucky to have her here with us.

[DoctorWhofan]

Well, it's probably not a bad thing to introduce PvP as a small minigame for the handful of players who could enjoy it depending on the time it takes to make the small additions. However, it would be a mistake to invest too many resources into it.

Turbine has only so many resources and they have to spend it to please their audience.

If they spread themselves too thin, they'll find themselves not meeting the needs of anyone and that is a problem. It is a much more sound strategy to focus your efforts on what you believe makes your game stand out and continually improve it. It's not necessarily a bad idea to try to appeal to a greater audience but PvP is the kind of feature that drain a lot of developer resources. Even with the use resources Blizzard have, they can barely pull off the efforts that having a PvE and PvP game represents.

I love that list. The extensive amount of work required to pull off even just half of that list just supports my above point, however.

never mention the ponies. geez Borror0!

[Dretharis]

Thank you for the responses.

As you can see, we do seem to agree on quite a bit - and let me tell you, I'll agree as well that by no means do I want DDO to become a pwnzfest. I'm an advocate of the dueling system - structured, voluntary, and contained.

While I still need to get around to elaborating on it, the primary revision I'd reccomend for it would be a system of wagering - no unique rewards available only through PvP, and likely no "rebalancing" necessary. The last thing I'd want to see is some sort of class change coming from a PvP revision, which suddenly nerfs thousands of characters with no interest in PvP anyway.

As Borror0's pointed out, dev time is certainly stretched thin, and I don't expect something like this in the next mod - but by taking a minimalist approach to revisions and requesting realistic, small additions, I think it's possible we'd see it sooner than "soon." Very little development resources would need to be utilized, as all of the pieces, sans the reward, are already in place.

Trade screen inserted into the dueling terms screen, maybe get around to fixing stealth (although I think AD's convinced me that stealth wouldn't have too much of an impact without improvements to stealth itself first, such as limited jumping), and that's it. Suddenly PvP's got a great incentive, but not one which serves to impact questing.

I apologize for the hostility, but frankly I was tired of getting drowned out by the anti-PvP side. This isn't the first account I've had - I can't recall the password for the last one. Every time I posted something and put some effort into it, it was steamrolled over. I'm sorry to pick you out specifically Uska, but every single time you were there. I understand that people on both sides are passionate about the topic, just give me the benefit of the doubt and read what I'm saying - I'm not out to get you here or something.

[DoctorWhofan]

Thank you for the responses.

As you can see, we do seem to agree on quite a bit - and let me tell you, I'll agree as well that by no means do I want DDO to become a pwnzfest. I'm an advocate of the dueling system - structured, voluntary, and contained.

While I still need to get around to elaborating on it, the primary revision I'd reccomend for it would be a system of wagering - no unique rewards available only through PvP, and likely no "rebalancing" necessary. The last thing I'd want to see is some sort of class change coming from a PvP revision, which suddenly nerfs thousands of characters with no interest in PvP anyway.

As Borror0's pointed out, dev time is certainly stretched thin, and I don't expect something like this in the next mod - but by taking a minimalist approach to revisions and requesting realistic, small additions, I think it's possible we'd see it sooner than "soon." Very little development resources would need to be utilized, as all of the pieces, sans the reward, are already in place.

Trade screen inserted into the dueling terms screen, maybe get around to fixing stealth (although I think AD's convinced me that stealth wouldn't have too much of an impact without improvements to stealth itself first, such as limited jumping), and that's it. Suddenly PvP's got a great incentive, but not one which serves to impact questing.

I apologize for the hostility, but frankly I was tired of getting drowned out by the anti-PvP side. This isn't the first account I've had - I can't recall the password for the last one. Every time I posted something and put some effort into it, it was steamrolled over. I'm sorry to pick you out specifically Uska, but every single time you were there. I understand that people on both sides are passionate about the topic, just give me the benefit of the doubt and read what I'm saying - I'm not out to get you here or something.

How about...and I am killing myself for saying this...when you go to the arena style combat (not the taverns. They are fine as is) A window comes up asking if you want to wager. THis would happen AFTER you load upto the arena. you would be behind a blue barrier. If both teams agree, a "trade" window pops with one slot for an item (non bound, of course) and a place to put plat. when everybody's done (the game will want make sure that people put similiar priced items or at least plat in the window before continuing.) a 20 second countdown then barrier drops then fight.

However, I can see how it could be exploited.