BAB and New Attack speed Question

[ThrasherGT]

A thought occurred to Me as I pondered the change.

Will the new attack speed be faster with haste (at top levels) than was previously possible with the old system? OR, was it designed with haste in mind to prevent the animations from "looking wrong" (As was discussed by the Dev team in the past).

If it maxxes out at BaB 20 with the old top speed (with haste, of course) , it seems like a "Nerf" (Can't think of a better word here) to any character that is not Bab 20.

I guess that after We go live with this, testing will show how much it scales between BaB levels.

I hope its not a big difference between, say, BaB 15 and BaB 20............

[Cleitanious]

As a level 4 Paladin, I was actually looking forward to earning my 3rd attack.

[Babumbalaboo]

I would also like to know a bit more about this. My level 10 barbarian swings his big ol' axe around slower than he used to. At least, that's how it feels. At this point I already "earned" the maximum number of attacks in the chain, so the only place I have to go now is speed. But how much speed? Are we talking 10% per BAB? 5% per? 1% per? I would really prefer it to be higher than lower, because if I'm not going to be looking forward to a new attack in five levels, I'd at least like to be smashing things significantly faster.

I also don't understand how this is a buff to two-handed weapons. Did they just nerf one-handers to make two-handers seem better or something? I'm probably in an odd position here, but if a level 5 gets four attacks just like me now, how much slower would he be hitting compared to me? Just thinking of that seems excruciating. If the buff per level is really somewhat significant, I suppose I'll see a real reason to enjoy every ding, even the ones where I don't get feats.

Most importantly, what level is the "equal point"? Unless I'm going crazy, I am currently attacking slower than before with a two-handed weapon. When do I attack just as fast as I did beforehand? How much faster will it be from that point to Level 20, assuming I stay barbarian the whole way through? Exactly how much of a nerf is this for lower level players?

[Seneca_Windforge]

I can't say I'm a fan of this change so far. When I swing a quarterstaff or greataxe on my 5th level warforged wizard, it feels like I'm fighting in molasses.

It seems to be a significant slowdown at lower BAB's while not speeding things up more than a bit at higher BAB's.

[Missing_Minds]

Exactly how much of a nerf is this for lower level players?

It is really more of a nerf on multi classers depending on how you multi classed.

[bigjenkie]

*nodnod*

This is *definitely* a (unintended, most likely) nerf to melee as it stands. The attacks are slower. No doubt about it.

[Junts]

each attack is slower, but if you stand still and do the whole chain, the overall speed is the same, due to the lack of the insanely slow 5th attack.

However, the attack speeds for 20 bab are equalized to what they were before for 16 bab (giving up a 5% increase or so). Hence, below 20 bab will be noticably slower.

[Babumbalaboo]

each attack is slower, but if you stand still and do the whole chain, the overall speed is the same, due to the lack of the insanely slow 5th attack.

Yesterday, I did not have a fifth attack. Today, I don't have a fifth attack either. The difference is that now my attacks are slower than they were before. That pretty much sums up the issues that I have, though I must say I was looking forward to that big cleave as a fifth attack at Level 15.

[Ciaran]

each attack is slower, but if you stand still and do the whole chain, the overall speed is the same, due to the lack of the insanely slow 5th attack.

However, the attack speeds for 20 bab are equalized to what they were before for 16 bab (giving up a 5% increase or so). Hence, below 20 bab will be noticably slower.

I think it's only noticeably slower if you are 3-4 BAB lower. I don't think there will be a noticeable difference between 19 BAB and 20 BAB.

Can anybody confirm this that has tested it/seen it in game?

[Missing_Minds]

Yesterday, I did not have a fifth attack. Today, I don't have a fifth attack either. The difference is that now my attacks are slower than they were before. That pretty much sums up the issues that I have, though I must say I was looking forward to that big cleave as a fifth attack at Level 15.

It only looked like a cleave, it was not. It only hit one target. You are getting more attacks per minute with this new method.

[Pblade]

So the slowing of attacks I saw this morning wasn't just from using an old laptop & wireless connection. I hope this isn't what was intended, because there's no way I'm getting the same number of attacks per minute. I'm only at a BAB of 12, so if I understood the release notes correctly I should actually have an additional attack now? If so, and this is the price, I'll happily give it back thanks.

-Pb

[LA_MIKE]

each attack is slower, but if you stand still and do the whole chain, the overall speed is the same, due to the lack of the insanely slow 5th attack.

The issue, however, is that everything under the sun tries to flank a character, even if it's by itself.

Oozes, bats, skeletons, zombies . . . ouch.

I'm a mobile weapon user as it is, no matter how many attacks I recieve. Forcing me to stand still and get flanked , spinning about wildly =

That's different from the FPS/real time combat, which this game touts.

The best part of all of this is how s l o w l y my attack rate is while mobile.

Eladrin said he would likely adjust things, so I'll try to adapt for now.

[Missing_Minds]

The issue, however, is that everything under the sun tries to flank a character, even if it's by itself.

Oozes, bats, skeletons, zombies . . . ouch.

If you stay moble, that means that your team mates will have a harder time "flanking" unless they just follow you ala a train style. Granted it also reduces the chances of you being hit. The latter is probably what you are going for.

As for creatures flanking you. About the only one that will do so constantly are mephits.

I'm a stand and slaughter them type, so I understand the complaints about flanking. I do one of two things. If they are going for a flank, I take steps back while swinging. In the case of mephits it won't work but does for everything else.
Or I take a step or two forward, if I notice them doing the insta (BS) swing about you. Taking the steps forward gets you out of range of their attack and plenty of time to turn around swinging at them as they walk back into your range without flanking. Been doing this for many mods.

[LA_MIKE]

If you stay moble, that means that your team mates will have a harder time "flanking" unless they just follow you ala a train style. Granted it also reduces the chances of you being hit. The latter is probably what you are going for.

In my experiences, teammates typically do not try to flank an enemy for the benefit of another player. Rather, I find the movements I make wind up placing me in a flanking position of a mob which benefits everyone.

As for creatures flanking you. About the only one that will do so constantly are mephits.

I won't dispute your opinion, however, I'm suprised that you would think this.

I'm a stand and slaughter them type, so I understand the complaints about flanking. I do one of two things. If they are going for a flank, I take steps back while swinging. In the case of mephits it won't work but does for everything else.
Or I take a step or two forward, if I notice them doing the insta (BS) swing about you. Taking the steps forward gets you out of range of their attack and plenty of time to turn around swinging at them as they walk back into your range without flanking. Been doing this for many mods.

I appreciate the thoughts, but as mentioned before, I'm a mobile weapon user, and knowledgable at countering the flank.

To do so requires movement, which has slowed attack speed significantly.

[Missing_Minds]

In my experiences, teammates typically do not try to flank an enemy for the benefit of another player. Rather, I find the movements I make wind up placing me in a flanking position of a mob which benefits everyone.

If you are the agro getter, I'd expect them to move where the "flanking" can occur for optimal take down. You aren't always able to set up mobs nicely. But constantly moving around the mob means they have to be constantly moving as well for "flanking." I mean if you are side by side, they wont' get "flanking" bonus.

And teammate meaning pugs.. yeah. I have to agree with you. They don't. But teammates ala guildies (at least in my case) realize the advantage and do so quite often.

I won't dispute your opinion, however, I'm suprised that you would think this.

Emm... maybe I wasn't clear enough. Probably wasn't. Mephits are the only creatures that I have witnessed in that list that CONSTANTLY try to flank. Most of the others attempt once then give up.

I appreciate the thoughts, but as mentioned before, I'm a mobile weapon user, and knowledgable at countering the flank.
To do so requires movement, which has slowed attack speed significantly.

I never assumed you did not have methods. I only offered methods that I have found to be quite effective, to the point my style has seen a slight increase in DPS.

In real life, trying to accurately swing a weapon while running around is difficult. I can see it being slower. This change to attack speed would seem to agree with this. I propose that the Mobilty feat actually give a 10% attack speed increase if you attack while moving. Make that feat actually worth while rather than just.... a place holder in a feat tree that is an utter waste with how the translation to video game went.

[Mercules]

I appreciate the thoughts, but as mentioned before, I'm a mobile weapon user, and knowledgable at countering the flank.

To do so requires movement, which has slowed attack speed significantly.

Tumble.

No loss of attack chain.

[Monkey_Archer]

preliminary testing here

it looks as if BAB 20 will be the same speed, but you loose approximatly 1 attack per min for every BAB lower (non-hasted)

[LA_MIKE]

I propose that the Mobilty feat actually give a 10% attack speed increase if you attack while moving. Make that feat actually worth while rather than just.... a place holder in a feat tree that is an utter waste with how the translation to video game went.

That's something I could get behind.

Tumble.

No loss of attack chain.

We're talking about the attack speed, not the chain. If I'm tumbling rather than constantly swinging, I'd expect my attack speed to suffer just as much, if not more.

[Missing_Minds]

We're talking about the attack speed, not the chain. If I'm tumbling rather than constantly swinging, I'd expect my attack speed to suffer just as much, if not more.

Maybe... maybe not. The higher your tumble the further/longer you tumble for.

What if (I know, hypothetical) you had a tumble, after all penlaties, of 1. You could still tumble then. At that point, would you not move the distance you need with the mob, still get your attacks at the same rate, if not possibly faster?

Even if that did hold true, I don't know about you, but I think it would be overly annoying myself.

[Vivanto]

I hope its not a big difference between, say, BaB 15 and BaB 20............

Well, my lvl 20 rogue with bab 15 is a hell of a lot more sluggish than my lvl 20 pally with full bab, all of a sudden my main toon dosen't really feel so fun anymore, and madstone/dp dosen't do squat for the attack speed.