Regarding Monk/Rogue

[0bso1e7e]

It seems to me like a monk/rogue would be very effective. The only real problem I see with it is the sheer number of stats required for the build. Would it be possible to make an effective monk/rogue? If so, how would one go about doing it? Clearly you would start with level 1 being rogue. Probably human. But beyond that, I'm not really sure.

[winsom]

Level 20 monk is a VERY good level. It was made a bit too good in DDO compared to D&D.

Multi-classing will deny you at least some of benefits that come from every 2 and every 5 monk levels as well as the 20th level benefits. So do your research very carefully if you intend your monk/rogue to be an active raiding character at the highest levels.

It seems the "general rule" of DDO characters at this time is that you can not "go wrong" with 20 levels in a single class, and probably not "wrong" with at least 18 levels. I think that is unfortunate from my point of view of analyzing the various power levels of class abilities, item benefits and the enhancement system.

I planned for a Monk 19 / Rogue 1, and scrapped it after 12 levels of seeing it not turning out as cool as I thought it would be compared to what I'd get from a 20th monk. I have a D&D character that is Monk 12 / Rogue 4. She was very cool to play, but did not translate well to DDO. The DDO enhancement system is so overpowered in some areas that to not take advantage of it is to purposely play at a major handicap compared to those that do.

That said, DDO is not so strict that it overly-punishes you for experimenting with multi-classing. See my signature. I have some combos that I do not see other people playing and they are working very well for me and for the groups that I join. DDO is typically a team effort after all and the adventures are generally tailored so that they can be completed by just about anyone, at least after significant practice as a team with good communication.

[Kreiger]

I would tend to agree.

I have capped my monk and almost capped my rogue/monk.

If you are going mostly monk stay pure you will not regret it. you can splash monk into a rogue build but 1 or 2 levels will be suficient (currently capping a 18/2 rogue monk build) as you will not want to miss the acrobat3 or assasin 3 prestige abilities which would seem to be verry bennificial. With a rogue i do not see an overwhelming reason to stay pure as with monk. The cap stone for rogue is just underwhelming to say the least.

[Vivanto]

A monk should be either
- 1 lvl splash
- 2 lvl splash
- pure

Anything else is pointless imo.

[Lymnus]

A monk should be either
- 1 lvl splash
- 2 lvl splash
- pure

Anything else is pointless imo.

Tempest Monks aren't bad, either.

[zealous]

A monk should be either
- 1 lvl splash
- 2 lvl splash
- 3 lvl splash for fun
- pure and put on hold til they get PrCs on the off chance they get viable

Anything else is pointless imo.

Stuff in red

Tempest Monks aren't bad, either.

iirc tempest don't work with 'wraps no moe

[Vivanto]

Stuff in red

Don't need no prc to dust em off, they're fine as is.

iirc tempest don't work with 'wraps no moe

It never worked.

[Aerendil]

There is some obvious symmetry with Monk/Rogue, of course, but then there's also a lot of asymmetry. Your call whether or not it's worth it:

Pros:
- sneak attack damage is always a plus, and helps out a Monk's slightly gimped dps. Even a mere +4-7dmg per hit adds up when you swing as fast as a grandmaster Wind stance Monk does.
- unbalancing strike allows SA dmg to kick in, even if tanking
- UMD, OL, DD are always welcome skills to have
- rogue haste clicky combined with monk stances can be sick
- upcoming ninja spy PrE looks to have some sort of SA dmg bonus, so this may mesh very well with a Rog splash
- Acrobat-Showtime and Uncanny Dodge can lead to some ridiculous AC boosts (and melee haste!) with a quarterstaff.

Cons:
- when you splash Rogue, people expect you to be able to do traps. UMD, OL, DD, Search are all cross-class skills, making it very hard to splash Rog unless you have a high INT to give you that many skill points. And Monks are already short enough on stat points as is.
- you lose the capstone and the level 20 DR, which are huge losses
- unknown what the Monk PrEs will bring, so anything more than a 2 level splash may result in some further loss of goodies
- 1 level splash isn't a huge dps boost (+4-7dmg) and almost requires you to go Halfling to add to that to justify losing out on 20 monk.
- the best Monk/Rog splash currently favors Rog more than Monk as either an 18 Rog / 1-2 Monk split, or 13 Rog / 6 Monk / 1 other split rocks (thief-acrobat with staff and wind stance).

Guess we'll have to see what the PrEs bring.

[0bso1e7e]

Hmmm. That's too bad. I was running a monk 19/rogue 1 build in my mind. Seemed like something that would work quite well. More DPS than a rogue, as well as more utility and such, plus the ability to handle traps, etc.

[winsom]

Hmmm. That's too bad. I was running a monk 19/rogue 1 build in my mind. Seemed like something that would work quite well. More DPS than a rogue, as well as more utility and such, plus the ability to handle traps, etc.

In D&D there is a Complete Warrior feat called "Ascetic Rogue" where your rogue levels counts as a monk level for purposes of monk unarmed damage dice.
The feat also grants +2 to the DC of stunning fist when it is a sneak attack

If DDO had that feat, the multiclass would be a lot more attractive to me.

[Junts]

splashed monks are still incredibly effective; I don't regret the rogue level on my monk. Monk 20 is excellent, but its benefit is 1 ac, 1.2 damage per swing, and the dr. The dr is great, but a umd character more than has it in hand with stoneskin, min2 clickies, etc.

My splash rogue gained more than enough dps via the addition of 1d6+3 in sneak attack, full umd and full trap skills. Its a much more effective small-party character than a pure monk.


If you take 1 splash level, take a second; monk 19 is a terrible level. I took fighter for the hp and associated feat (letting me fit in the twf chain and the halfling dragonmark chain), but sometimes I wish I'd taken ranger instead (for the +2 favored enemy and sprint boost!)

[winsom]

Monk 20 is excellent, but its benefit is 1 ac, 1.2 damage per swing, and the dr.)

also 1 more Save DC on Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm, fall any distance for no damage, and the monk Capstone enhancement.

That is a heck of a lot to gain/lose for a single Monk level.

[Lymnus]

iirc tempest don't work with 'wraps no moe

Never has, never will. But, adding tempest to a monk who intends on using kamas isn't bad at all.

Though, I suppose you could debate that if you're intending on using kamas, you nerfed yourself.