Why shold arcane melee exist other then for soloing purposes?

[Aspenor]

I would kill for Spellsword...

I would rather see eldritch knight or abjurant champion, myself. Spellswords are cool, though.

[jakeelala]

The primary point of this thread actually is in pnp battle arcanes are viable, but in DDO they are far less so. This is a flaw in the design of DDO. All I have heard from the devs on the subject is they plan to release one wizard prestige enhancement sometime in the future which may or may not help wizard battle arcanes. There is no plans to help sorc battle arcanes and it is uncelar if this future prestige enhancement will appreciably help wizard battle arcanes. The conclusion of this thread is to task the developers to make battle arcanes more viable and fun to play.

Matt,

I think you're getting far too caught up in what's up on paper versus what gets delivered.

I have made some builds that are unorthodox, but no one has ever once denied me for raids or grouping. The reason why is because thoughtfulness, awareness, and good judgement in the heat of things FAR out values pure number crunching build superiority EVERY TIME.

Every single person in Free Companions has better gear than me right now since I basically took the last year and a half off. But I'm still asked to join raids, I still perform at a VERY high level, and no one seems to mind me being around.

I don't have an exploiter ranger, I only have 2 GS items on all of my toons, and just pulled my first Icy last week. None of my toons I currently play have a single +3 stat tome (except my warchanter who may have one, I can't remember).

I can tell you this: I outplay consistently people with better builds, more gear, more levels, and more time to grind. Why?

I heal myself and don't die. I always have some arrows just in case something happens. Almost all my builds have SOME way to rez, just in case. If I don't have Min2's on all my toons, you can expect me to have the appropriate weapons for EVERY quest, every time, even if it's a pain.

Every single person in this game could play like that, and many do. There are probably plenty of people who don't play like that, and make wierd, off-kilter arcane multi-class builds, which I can understand your frustration with, a bad player is a bad player, regardless of their build or gear.

But that's what you should be railing against, because anything else is a little pretentious, and frankly you could get yourself in hot water. There are lots of very talented players who wouldn't ruin your raids who might play more interesting, and less vanilla builds than you are expecting.

I am really MUCH more concerned with the quality of player, and not their build or gear when I'm grouping. I know the good players will always make up for whatever they're lacking in numbers with good play. And you can't buy that from the AH or a plat seller or the Turbine Store.

In fact, I avoid certain players who I KNOW have uber gear, because frankly, they either suck at playing with all those toys, or they make grouping straight up NOT fun. I'm not suggesting you're one of those, but I am suggesting perhaps taking a step back, because we all get very caught up in "can I incrementally up my damage 1 more point to be uber..." because THATS ALL THERES LEFT TO DO, thanks to Turbine utterly failing at updating this game regularly.

But what's being proposed here by a small minority is, instead of trying to squeeze every single last possible point of "look how big MY sword is", just trying instead to do the things you do already over and over again differently.

I am MUCH more impressed by someone who can make a Fvs 4 / Wiz 12 / Pal 4 or whatever-the-heck-ever and play it adequately than anyone with a Rgr 18 / Mnk 1 / Rog 1. If they can do the former, I know they're someone I want to group with.

[RTN]

2. BAB - this one really screws melée casters. BAB from DP no longer count towards attack rate

This is one of the major problems for melee casters. Their BAB loss is fairly significant, especially if they max their caster stat to keep high a DC (meaning, they'll have fewer ability points to put into stats that raise the to hit, like STR or DEX).

To raise either STR or DEX (finesse) to keep the chances for hitting, their CON will take a hit. Low CON means a greater chance of getting one shot deaths on higher end content. That's one of the weaknesses of these builds. That's not to say that it can't be overcome, but self healing doesn't help if you're dead.

A pure caster can also do melee. I have a pure Wiz that pulls out a greater bane falchion vs evil outsiders when I'm not casting or uses a woowoo stick. I'll stone or make mobs dance, then beat on them while the melee is occupied elsewhere. He'll be buffed, has a high Con and I make sure to not stand next to whoever has the agro. However, with the BAB loss and lower starting STR, without a bard, I'll miss more than I should against mobs not held by CC. That radically lowers the possible DPS in average situations. Melee casters suffer from the same problem. They'll be built more to overcome this, but their to hit will suffer and this can't entirely be compensated for.

That said, if you're having fun and can play well, then do so. But also don't get angry if others don't appreciate the build. They enjoy playing a different way and you're both better off not playing with each other and not enjoying it.

[maddmatt70]

Matt,

I think you're getting far too caught up in what's up on paper versus what gets delivered.

I have made some builds that are unorthodox, but no one has ever once denied me for raids or grouping. The reason why is because thoughtfulness, awareness, and good judgement in the heat of things FAR out values pure number crunching build superiority EVERY TIME.

Every single person in Free Companions has better gear than me right now since I basically took the last year and a half off. But I'm still asked to join raids, I still perform at a VERY high level, and no one seems to mind me being around.

I don't have an exploiter ranger, I only have 2 GS items on all of my toons, and just pulled my first Icy last week. None of my toons I currently play have a single +3 stat tome (except my warchanter who may have one, I can't remember).

I can tell you this: I outplay consistently people with better builds, more gear, more levels, and more time to grind. Why?

I heal myself and don't die. I always have some arrows just in case something happens. Almost all my builds have SOME way to rez, just in case. If I don't have Min2's on all my toons, you can expect me to have the appropriate weapons for EVERY quest, every time, even if it's a pain.

Every single person in this game could play like that, and many do. There are probably plenty of people who don't play like that, and make wierd, off-kilter arcane multi-class builds, which I can understand your frustration with, a bad player is a bad player, regardless of their build or gear.

But that's what you should be railing against, because anything else is a little pretentious, and frankly you could get yourself in hot water. There are lots of very talented players who wouldn't ruin your raids who might play more interesting, and less vanilla builds than you are expecting.

I am really MUCH more concerned with the quality of player, and not their build or gear when I'm grouping. I know the good players will always make up for whatever they're lacking in numbers with good play. And you can't buy that from the AH or a plat seller or the Turbine Store.

In fact, I avoid certain players who I KNOW have uber gear, because frankly, they either suck at playing with all those toys, or they make grouping straight up NOT fun. I'm not suggesting you're one of those, but I am suggesting perhaps taking a step back, because we all get very caught up in "can I incrementally up my damage 1 more point to be uber..." because THATS ALL THERES LEFT TO DO, thanks to Turbine utterly failing at updating this game regularly.

But what's being proposed here by a small minority is, instead of trying to squeeze every single last possible point of "look how big MY sword is", just trying instead to do the things you do already over and over again differently.

I am MUCH more impressed by someone who can make a Fvs 4 / Wiz 12 / Pal 4 or whatever-the-heck-ever and play it adequately than anyone with a Rgr 18 / Mnk 1 / Rog 1. If they can do the former, I know they're someone I want to group with.

I spent 1.5 years playing Norg my dps oriented fighter despite fighters being gimped in comparison to barbarians and rangers. I just kept acquiring gear and playing as hard as I could on Norg, but did I like knowing that a similiar geared and played ranger/barbarian character did 15% or so more dps then Norg did? No I did not especially considering there is no simliar gap in pnp. The dps gap between battle arcanes and other melee is far larger then the gap was between fighters and barbarians/rangers. Do I grab whatever comes along for a raid? Yes I do. Should the devs do something to fix battle arcanes like they did fighters? Absolutely.

[jakeelala]

I spent 1.5 years playing Norg my dps oriented fighter despite fighters being gimped in comparison to barbarians and rangers. I just kept acquiring gear and playing as hard as I could on Norg, but did I like knowing that a similiar geared and played ranger/barbarian character did 15% or so more dps then Norg did? No I did not especially considering there is no simliar gap in pnp. The dps gap between battle arcanes and other melee is far larger then the gap was between fighters and barbarians/rangers. Do I grab whatever comes along for a raid? Yes I do. Should the devs do something to fix battle arcanes like they did fighters? Absolutely.

I totally agree with you that they should give some love to expand the possibilities of what people can and will play. For now, it's just a challenge for those of us who enjoy that sort of thing. The bragging rights are awesome.

have you seen the WF sorc/pally/rogue Tukaw build? It's AWESOME.

[Mr_Ed7]

My guy is a blast! Literally!

This force-speced 9Fighter9Wizard is alot of fun. I just got level 5 spells too.

Chain Missles is fun and I love the chaotic nature of Prismatic Ray!

My web spells still work in higher level dungeons, and although I like acid, I can get Wall of Fire is needed.

My short Haste can be spammed.

I have had this discussion with others, as some have already said FUN is paramount.

Additionally, I have stated to the ire of others my 5/1 & 11/1 theory, which is even if you build the ultimate nerf character or if someone is a sucky player (I am neither) the other team-members can carry you through the quest.

[Stonebread]

I think people can become too focused on the current endgame conditions when designing characters. You never know what the future will hold. How many times have the rules changed and shifted the balance of power?

[JeffreyGator]

I actually play most of these examples and like them.

I have a 12 sorc 4 pally 2 rogue and haven't decided what her next two levels will be yet. I was in the shroud yesterday, passed out buffs to everyone and then went back to melee. The pure sorc didn't have to do any buffing and so had a full sp bar for the instakills. We each get to have fun where we wanted to best.

Against the trash I generally used a pair of vorpals (my prefferred weapon set for any toon in shavaratth at the moment) or to contribute to everyone else I used a set of special effect weapons. Cursespewing of shattermantle and paralyzing of backstabbing I think. I'm sure that other people were doing more damage to the portals than I was but more people hitting is generally good. Same with Harry.

And maximized frost lance works nicely against Harry in part 5 as well.

In 6 man I get the traps and can buff and stand in my own firewall paralyzing mobs next to me instead of jumping al about.

But certainly I'd like to see caster and battle-caster prestige classes. Arcane trickster especially.

[demitri7]

after digging around for a while on the forums i was really glad to find this thread. Reading about all the different things people were playing out there gave me alot more desire to play my arcane melee. I posted about the details of the build and people didnt really like it because i wasnt going warforged and couldn't cast reconstruct on myself. I personally think warforged are hideous and would never play one, and for a while there i was thinking the only viable way to play an arcane caster was to go warforged and really make good use of the self sufficiency.

But after reading what other people had to say here i realized just how much fun i had playing my character from 4 to 5 and decided to say to hell with it. I'm going to keep playing my character even if it is a little gimped because i love it. If i have trouble getting into raids ill go play my pure wizard or my batman.

btw the build is going to be elf-12wiz/6rng/2monk. I just imagine running around dropping fire walls, cone of cold, summon spells, healing myself with cure wands and then going tensers and smashing some face. It just seems really awesome in my head, so now im gonna play it.

thanks all.

[Drakons20]

It's hard to do a really good Arcane Meleer due to no Polymorf and no Prestiage Class like Eldritch Knight. You can still get pretty good with starting with a 14-16 str and keep it maxed with 4-8-12-16-20 and with the spell Tensor's Transformation. My 13 Sorc/ 2 Paladin right now can melee in any Normal or Hard mode quest. Elites though I tend to stick to casting since my gear and setup isn't meant for it. If you were to do it, I'd suggest Drow or WF though so you can easily wear armor with their enchancements to lower Arcane Failure along with a piece of Twilight Armor you should have 0% Arcane Failure.
Though I will tell you this from experience, I have a 5% Arcane Failure rate but in reality I fail 30-50% of my spells due to a 5% Failure, bad luck whatever you wanna call it, lots of other who have similar setups say the same thing.

[Drakons20]

My next toon is going to be a Wiz/Rogue who uses Tensor's and is something like 15Wiz, 5 Rogue using a Greatsword and the First level spell Masters Touch for Proficiency. WF probably

[zooble]

the main problem is that its not measurable... your actual dps and not the theoretical

take WoW as a great example... everyone using dps meters and alot of builds are almost identical...
chances are they do not line up to where they should be on those meters... this boils down to player skills. it is not uncommon for a skilled and poorly geared player to out dps an unskilled and geared player. deadweights are excluded from loot/future raids etc etc. odd character builds are able to prove themselves dismissing any negative preconceptions.

in DDO its exactly the same except theres no dps meters. you arcane hybrid might have less theoretical damage but that cookie cutter pure melee build might be in the hands of someone of mediocre skill... thus ends up doing less actual dps than your hybrid. theres no way to 'prove yourself' or 'disprove that poorly skilled pure melee' in this game so all preconceptions are stuck as is.

1 killer example i witnessed in a chat channel:
"buying kopeshes"
"what kopesh?"
"any atm"

chances are any skilled player with martial/simple weapons could out dps that person with the theoretical best 1handed weapon type in the game.

the 2nd primary problem is that people tend to only care about the hardest and most powerful mobs in the game. everything else is irrelavent. ie: boss mobs

eg: why would it matter if you can kill trash 10x faster if you can't dps the purple named. of course theres always the speed issue but some people don't care about that.

[Noir]

Oddlived

Seriously....I thought the mention of this would be a /thread

[sigtrent]

I have an arcane melee.

His DC is up to snuff with a full wizard, at worst down by 1pt. His spell penetration is a bit weaker but damage spells are not affected so knowing what to cast at whom works well. His mana is a bit shy of a full class but not by much, say 100 or so points.

What I get in return is the ability to kill things in melee combat. So when spells are useless, or not efficient or when I'm out of mana I'm not just sitting around twiddling my thumbs. Instead of chugging mana potions I pull out the con damage weapons and kill stuff or render it helpless so others can kill them. Before WOP went a bit south I often out killed pure melee characters in most parties without using a single attack spell just to show I could. Sometimes it was simply more effective to use spell points that way. Why FOD when I could kill nearly as quick with melee and save the SP for the boss monsters or large crowds.

When playing solo it also or in small groups it gives you a lot more flexibility in the roll you can play.

In a group casters and melee are not always needed. Some quests heavily favor one strategy over the other. My character can fill either roll effectively so in a steady group he's never a wasted spot as we go from quest to quest.

[hermespan]

I let the adventure summary do the talking, which I can because I'm a dps melee.

CC spellcasters, healers, tanks (as in grab agro and hold it tanks) etc. don't get summaries like a kill summary, so it's hard to show what they've done, even though it's more important than kill count. Felt I had to qualify that.

Had a pally ask me what my 4th class will be (in a very demeaning way) before zoning into a quest. Half way through the quest I picked up his stone and fought my way to the shrine for him, as well as beat his kills over 2:1 (49 to 19).

In addition to being a pure-build snob, he didn't say thank you. I didn't think that was very paladin like, and he may have violated his alignment restrictions. DM?

[tfangel]

For fun. That's right, my best answer is for fun.

The only reason to do anything, more so in a game.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

In general, I'd agree with you that most battlecaster types are essentially poor melee builds smashed together with low-level casters. I think the exception, however, is the pure or near-pure caster that puts a bit of emphasis on meleeing.

For example, a pure wf wizard who spends one feat of PA and puts some points into strength and maximizes int. Such a character probably loses a few hp and maybe a mental toughness feat (110 sp at cap) compared to the standard build. On the other hand, he gains the ability to contribute in scenarios where spellcasting (other than buffing) has minimal, if any, effectiveness. He can also contribute even when he is out of spellpoints. Even if his DPS isn't spectacular, it helps (especially, as you mentioned, for soloing).

Even if you splashed a couple levels of rogue or monk, you mostly just lose out on 2 spell penetration, since level doesn't affect DCs.

Anyhow, that's just my thoughts on the matter. Even if you don't spend any feats on melee, I think it is always advisable to invest a couple of points in strength and some inventory slots on divine power clickies, if for no other reason than whipping out a vorpal on occasion. As I said, though, I'm in pretty much complete agreement when it comes to the 11/7/2 type mutts that are out there. Also agreed on the fact that Turbine should throw them a bone as they did fighters.