Why shold arcane melee exist other then for soloing purposes?

[maddmatt70]

I am going to put arcane melee (ex. 16 sorc 2 monk 2 paladin or 11 wiz 6 ranger 3 rogue or 12 sorc 6 pally 2 monk or 12 wiz 7 rogue 1 monk) to task to really justify their existance. I like the concept of an arcane melee build in regards to pnp and the idea intrigues me in DDO, but the math is so stringently against the creation of an arcane melee. This is a question of with the increases for all other melee in dps and other utility terms in mod 9 and no really improvements for the arcane melee why should an arcane melee ever be brought along on raid? Do they really add anything in the group concept especially with 11 other players?

Their cc, insta kills spells can not land, other arcanes can pick up reconstruct and repair warforged without issue, and they do about 50& of the dps of a melee. If a raid already has a bard (buffing) and another arcane (cc, instakills and buffing), and melee that dps things that do the real work why should a raid leader add a battle arcane? Perhaps it is time to put those battle arcanes into hibernation until mod 10 for hopefully a battle caster prestige enhancement. I altered my battle bard to become more of a healer because quite frankly healing is bards strongest feature at the moment, but I hear nothing from the battle arcanes since their dps does less % wise to other melee what are they doing to meet the new challenges.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'm curious, why do you think they do less damage? 50% less?

I have my own opinions, but I need to understand your viewpoint first.

[Gol]

For fun. That's right, my best answer is for fun.

Btw, this weekend I was in a shroud pug on my Battle Wiz and the clerics yelled "all out while we refill". I stayed in and finished Harry off by myself.

[Aspenor]

I am going to put arcane melee (ex. 16 sorc 2 monk 2 paladin or 11 wiz 6 ranger 3 rogue or 12 sorc 6 pally 2 monk or 12 wiz 7 rogue 1 monk) to task to really justify their existance. I like the concept of an arcane melee build in regards to pnp and the idea intrigues me in DDO, but the math is so stringently against the creation of an arcane melee. This is a question of with the increases for all other melee in dps and other utility terms in mod 9 and no really improvements for the arcane melee why should an arcane melee ever be brought along on raid? Do they really add anything in the group concept especially with 11 other players?

Their cc, insta kills spells can not land, other arcanes can pick up reconstruct and repair warforged without issue, and they do about 50& of the dps of a melee. If a raid already has a bard (buffing) and another arcane (cc, instakills and buffing), and melee that dps things that do the real work why should a raid leader add a battle arcane? Perhaps it is time to put those battle arcanes into hibernation until mod 10 for hopefully a battle caster prestige enhancement. I altered my battle bard to become more of a healer because quite frankly healing is bards strongest feature at the moment, but I hear nothing from the battle arcanes since their dps does less % wise to other melee what are they doing to meet the new challenges.

I pose the more important question:

Why SHOULDN'T they be brought, especially when there are 11 other players?

That question would make more sense.

I know that you have this false predisposition that unless you're doing the highest of top-notch DPS you're not contributing, but this belief is wrong (and exhibits your ignorance).

[maddmatt70]

I'm curious, why do you think they do less damage? 50% less?

I have my own opinions, but I need to understand your viewpoint first.

Compare the builds I listed to other similiar melee builds from a dps standpoint and you can see there really is no contest dpswise:
-11 wizard 6 ranger 3 rogue = probably 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue.
-12 sorc 6 paladin 2 monk = 18 paladin 2 monk build.
-12 wizard 7 rogue 1 monk = 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 monk.
-16 sorc 2 monk 2 paladin = not sure exactly but could just say 18 ranger 1 monk 1 rogue.

From a spellcasting standpoint the battle arcane can not land spells on mobs or bosses so they really occupy a melee spot in a raid but do alot less dps then a melee this mod. I picked 50% less dps, but do not have exact numbers calculated.

[Impaqt]

The game simply isnt about being the best at everything for everyone.

Some folks just like to have fun.

I know some excellent melee/Arcane combos. They play their character well and are an asset to the groups they play in.

I also know some that suck.

too many people play with the "If ya ain't First, yer Last" mentality....

[maddmatt70]

I pose the more important question:

Why SHOULDN'T they be brought, especially when there are 11 other players?

That question would make more sense.

I know that you have this false predisposition that unless you're doing the highest of top-notch DPS you're not contributing, but this belief is wrong (and exhibits your ignorance).

I agree with everyone who states for fun to bring characters along. You can get away with shortmanning quests/raids for that matter (for instance 4 people just shortmanned the new raid and could have had 8 people go afk in the corner throughtout the quest). I would like to hear more about my ignorance on the subject regarding contributions I am willing to learn. I am also looking forward to the pale master prestige enhancement and hope they add a sorc battle mage prestige enhancement as well such as the rage mage, eldritch knight, or dragon disciple.

[Angelus_dead]

I am going to put arcane melee (ex. 16 sorc 2 monk 2 paladin or 11 wiz 6 ranger 3 rogue or 12 sorc 6 pally 2 monk or 12 wiz 7 rogue 1 monk) to task to really justify their existance.

So they have something to do in between Haste and Fog.

[Aspenor]

I agree with everyone who states for fun to bring characters along. You can get away with shortmanning quests/raids for that matter (for instance 4 people just shortmanned the new raid and could have had 8 people go afk in the corner throughtout the quest). I would like to hear more about my ignorance on the subject regarding contributions I am willing to learn. I am also looking forward to the pale master prestige enhancement and hope they add a sorc battle mage prestige enhancement as well such as the rage mage, eldritch knight, or dragon disciple.

Sorry Matt, this topic just gets my goat sometimes. For that I apologize.

Basically, to contribute you need to be ready to play a high maintenance, click-intensive character. Also, it's important to be aware of your buff status at all times. I, too, would like to see some kind of battle sorc enhancements.

Again, sorry about the previous angst.

To me, playing my Arcane Knight is like playing a character that is the ultimate in self-sufficiency. I need nothing from anybody. It's a ton of fun for me, and proving my worth to people is also a blast.

[Athermal]

Oddlived

[Aspenor]

So they have something to do in between Haste and Fog.

zing

By the same logic, you could ask Sorcerer 20's and Wizard 20's to justify their existence as well.

[Stamp3de]

zing

By the same logic, you could ask Sorcerer 20's and Wizard 20's to justify their existence as well.

Longer lasting hastes and fogs

[Aspenor]

Longer lasting hastes and fogs

If they had melee DPS they wouldnt need them to last longer.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Compare the builds I listed to other similiar melee builds from a dps standpoint and you can see there really is no contest dpswise:
-11 wizard 6 ranger 3 rogue = probably 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue.
-12 sorc 6 paladin 2 monk = 18 paladin 2 monk build.
-12 wizard 7 rogue 1 monk = 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 monk.
-16 sorc 2 monk 2 paladin = not sure exactly but could just say 18 ranger 1 monk 1 rogue.

From a spellcasting standpoint the battle arcane can not land spells on mobs or bosses so they really occupy a melee spot in a raid but do alot less dps then a melee this mod. I picked 50% less dps, but do not have exact numbers calculated.

DDO's enhancement system makes chars way better at their Dev perceived role than an equivilant PnP D&D char.

Melee casters do not have the enhancements needed to really shine in that role.

However, I've seen good ones.
I've seen mid lvll ones with the high kill counts.
And I've seen high lvl ones be hero tank and do very well.

And in the newest content most caster have been degraded to buffers only.
So it seems a melee caster can buff and kill things too IMO.

Plus looking at someone's build is a very poor way to judge capability.

I'm sure the power gamers would love to fill up their raid groups with a certain amount of "Monster" greensteel khopesh users....but the fact is they will fill a tank slot with the first Ftr/Brb type that comes along, with no real idea how much DPS he can do.


Then there are people like me who could care less and will take the first 5/11 people willing to join me and have a go at it.

Last night did a lvl appropriate CO6 run with one ranged ranger, 1 cleric, 1 FVS, 2 Brds and 1 Wiz/Rog.
No DPS to speak of.
The last two prts the Clr DCed and never came back.
And it was easy for us. easier then any perfect group I've seen in there yet.

I understand some raids are special, but in general all you need is a party willing to work together and work to their strengths IMO.

[Angelus_dead]

Melee casters do not have the enhancements needed to really shine in that role.

What enhancements don't they get?

[Thrudh]

I am going to put arcane melee (ex. 16 sorc 2 monk 2 paladin or 11 wiz 6 ranger 3 rogue or 12 sorc 6 pally 2 monk or 12 wiz 7 rogue 1 monk) to task to really justify their existance. I like the concept of an arcane melee build in regards to pnp and the idea intrigues me in DDO, but the math is so stringently against the creation of an arcane melee. This is a question of with the increases for all other melee in dps and other utility terms in mod 9 and no really improvements for the arcane melee why should an arcane melee ever be brought along on raid? Do they really add anything in the group concept especially with 11 other players?

Their cc, insta kills spells can not land, other arcanes can pick up reconstruct and repair warforged without issue, and they do about 50& of the dps of a melee. If a raid already has a bard (buffing) and another arcane (cc, instakills and buffing), and melee that dps things that do the real work why should a raid leader add a battle arcane? Perhaps it is time to put those battle arcanes into hibernation until mod 10 for hopefully a battle caster prestige enhancement. I altered my battle bard to become more of a healer because quite frankly healing is bards strongest feature at the moment, but I hear nothing from the battle arcanes since their dps does less % wise to other melee what are they doing to meet the new challenges.

Note that their spell-casting power is only impaired against Spell Resistance, since spell power is based on the spell level, not the caster level...

Assuming that a battle-sorc maxes out his CHA just like a pure sorc... The 16/2/2 battle-sorc's Web spell is only going to have 1 less DC...

Two other things come to mind... One, there's more to this game than raids... Multi-class characters usually do better in 6-man (or shortmanned) quests, since they can cover more than one role...

Two, and this is most important....

We don't NEED maximum DPS...

Here's the thing... A group with 66% of the maximum DPS possible can complete the Shroud without any deaths... They may take 2.2 rounds in Part 4, and the whole raid may take 40 minutes instead of 25 minutes... but they are successful. And not limping to the end barely... I mean successful... Clerics don't use any pots, damage is solid and steady. People are talking and having fun...

Do you really finish a Shroud in 32 minutes with a 1.3 round Part 4 and think to yourself, "Man, we failed..." Is a 1 round Part 4 necessary for you to consider it a success?

I wish there were more raids where self-sufficiency matter... There are several quests where that is this case... Hard or Elite Hound is the only raid I can think of where people aren't clumped together getting mass-healed... And with the beholders dispelling, being self-sufficient is VERY useful in there...

Maximum DPS is a very good smart way to build these days... But it's not necessary to be successful in raids... And giving up some DPS for self-healing power, or self-buffing power can be very useful in 6-man (or less) quests and when soloing...

Yes, one can gimp himself... The real problem is all the new PrEs... You may right, and the arcane casters you describe are now doing 50% of max DPS (when before they were doing 70%)... Should they be shelved until PrEs for casters come out? I don't know... maybe... I'm currently not leveling my ranger/wizard until I get a feel for how I want to train him...

Bring who you want... Just know you can complete the raids without absolute maximum DPS, so there's no real reason to NOT bring one along...

[Robi3.0]

And the number one reason Why arcane melee exist other then for soloing purposes is.

You can't tell me how to play!

[Aspenor]

Compare the builds I listed to other similiar melee builds from a dps standpoint and you can see there really is no contest dpswise:
-11 wizard 6 ranger 3 rogue = probably 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue.
-12 sorc 6 paladin 2 monk = 18 paladin 2 monk build.
-12 wizard 7 rogue 1 monk = 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 monk.
-16 sorc 2 monk 2 paladin = not sure exactly but could just say 18 ranger 1 monk 1 rogue.

From a spellcasting standpoint the battle arcane can not land spells on mobs or bosses so they really occupy a melee spot in a raid but do alot less dps then a melee this mod. I picked 50% less dps, but do not have exact numbers calculated.

Well, since full arcanes can't land spells very well either on Shavarath, I'm not really seeing why having somebody swinging a weapon while casting no-save fogs will make a difference.

[Thrudh]

And in the newest content most caster have been degraded to buffers only.
So it seems a melee caster can buff and kill things too IMO.

Good point... Fogs, Displacement, and Haste work the same if it's a 20th level sorc or 16/2/2...

[Thrudh]

What enhancements don't they get?

He's talking about all the melee enhancements....