Truth is in the poison

[HolyCrusader2010]

I tried this adventure two days ago, on hard. I'm a level 5 favored soul, a bit low perhaps. the rest of the party consisted of 2 warriors, a paladin, rogue and sorcerer, level 6-8.

We got massacred by the mages. Either they disabled one through hypnotism (I was unaffected due to my high saves) or they one-shot you using a 98 damage frost spell. Rediculous, 98 damage in a level 5 hard adventure? I pimped my hp using toughness and racial and class toughness boosts and barely make it over 100 (102 iirc). I'm quite new now, but do I have 300 hp in 2 levels to survive this kind of punishment? suffice to say, we didn't get far. I'm starting to see this in other hard instances as well. the 'normal' difficulty is a breeze. I even have to hardly throw out heals nor buffs and we breeze through, but set it to hard and it becomes a slaughterfest of one shot kills and control spells that completely disable characters.

Am I doing something wrong? Is hard meant for +5 levels or something? What about elite? Level 20 only from level 5 and on? I did waterworks on elite without a problem on level 4.

[nytewolf]

First let me say that the quest you mentioned is harder than most of its level. But that being said I think the bigger part of the problem you encountered can be found in this thread right here.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=199073

[Shadow_Flayer]

Proof is in the Poison has always been a ridiculously hard quest for the level. You aren't doing anything wrong. Most other quests in your level range aren't as difficult as this particular one, even on hard or elite.

[HolyCrusader2010]

First let me say that the quest you mentioned is harder than most of its level. But that being said I think the bigger part of the problem you encountered can be found in this thread right here.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=199073

Ah, a bug. That explains things. Thank you.

[HolyCrusader2010]

I did it yesterday, solo, on normal diffuculty and managed to complete it without a problem. Using Night shield and Resist energy: acid I was able to negate the mages' attacks. Hypnotism rarely was not resisted and only lasted 12 seconds. I had enough armor to only be hit on crits, so it seemed. Good fun, took me a long time to complete though, that place was huge and only found one shrine. But made it it! 4400 xp, no nice loot, but a great sense of accomplishment.

[Perceval]

Ran in with a 3 man party ( 5 Paladin, 2/2 mage/rogue, 4 Favored Soul). Everyone died once (no one died twice) but there were no Party wipes. The quest is diffucult but can be done with care and good tactics... Resist Energy Acid is a must

[Vormaerin]

First... The high damage was probably a bug that was supposed to be fixed.

Second... Hard and elite are actually more difficult than just +1 and +2 lvl of difficulty. This is especially true of quests where there are a lot of spellcasters or a lot of spiders. Both of these types of bad guys scale up up faster than regular melee mobs. If you do elite lvl 2 quests like Durk's, you'll see hold persons and lightning bolts flying about willy-nilly.

Third.. This is a very hard quest that requires very good tactics to pull off, which is why it is worth 8k xp at lvl 4 on normal. You need to use line of sight, scouting, crowd control, and resist acid (at a minimum) to keep things under control.

[Thaldon]

Me and my favored soul friend ran this the other night. We were both level 5, and didn't really know what to expect. Glad I had just recently stocked up on wands. I spammed my soundburst wand over and over on the mobs and he cleaned up the rest. Worst part was when he was hypno'd and I on my back from grease, but we managed. Only 1 rest area in the quest made it tough, and the end fight was a let down IMO as the spellcaster mobs were much tougher then the boss. But getting 4400xp at the end was nice!

Would it be worthwhile running it with a rogue? I didn't notice any secret doors.

[Shade]

Am I doing something wrong? Is hard meant for +5 levels or something? What about elite? Level 20 only from level 5 and on? I did waterworks on elite without a problem on level 4.

Yea your assuming "Hard" is just a boost in how many levels you need. This is incorrect.

Hard is a difficulty setting, it's designed for a more experienced player who did normal before (hard is not even meant to be available until normal is done - the fact they let VIPs do this was a mistake obviously)
And more important - a more skilled team of players who can handle very hard situations. To assume someone with more levels is what you need is incorrect, every quest can be done at approriate lvl on elite. Really by players who are used to that difficulty, far below the recommended lvl and in smaller groups.. While ful groups of un-experienced players above the lvl of the quest are expect to fail. DDO is very much a skill and experience based game, and not a "My stats are XX, so I win" Game.

No your not meant to tank 90 dmg spells. Your a squishy healer class. Your melee are meant to handle that, at appropriatel (5/6) they should have about 160 hitpoints, meaning they can take 2 hits fine (90- 20 resist = 70, x2 = 140) - While you can't cast 20 pnt resist at lvl5/6.. Experienced players are expected to work around this, house P buffs can be gotten as early asl vl2/3, and grant 30min 20 point ones. Tho the quest could be beat entirely without them.
Hard really is meant to required good teamwork, not healers rushing in first getting caster agro.. Tanks going in first, healers holding back to heal.

Infact no one needs to be hit by that spell, its easily dodgable, and casters have very low str scores making them very easy for the melee to trip before they can even get a spell off.

IMO this is one of the few quests that match the difficulty you will start facing at high lvls, so is a good training quests. Most other quests of this level have been HEAVILY watered down so people never understand the point of the difficulty, often due to whine threads like this one.
But once you reach higher level, you should expect this kind of problem all the time if you skip to hard without first trying normal.

That said the dungeon scaling bug may still be present and causing higher spell dmg then intended. Tho 70-100 dmg spells on hard/elite in lvl5ish quest was actually possible in module8, pre scaling.

[captain1z]

I dont think its dungeon scaling at all since they said they tweaked it on last monday. Since the "fix" I have not had a problem with the elite settings on quests.

What I think is needed is better tactics, respect you enemy and understand that if you give him the chance he will end you. Movement, tripping, stunning, use of web. Draw your enemy to you in sizes you can handle and have the field of battle that you have chosen prepared.

Force them to fight at choke points where they cant surround you, choke points also give some of your party a measure of cover. If they are using one type of element make sure you are protected.

Lastly, if they are using a tactic against you thats working, turn the tables on them. That hypno sure seems to be effective so hit them with it before they hit you.

**At 3rd level my wizard is totally capable of doing 40 pts (just using empower) with a spell at 6th with gear (which I have none now) its totally realistic for me to be doing 80 pts of damage (just not for as long as enemies can)**

[MagicianBlade]

Don't disable the firetrap, then lead the entire dungeon into it, until you get to the acid pools. Once you get to the acid pools, lead the rest of the dungeon into the acid pools.

^^ How to solo PIITP at any level

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I just did this with a small group of horrible players.

I used a Shadow Mage Wiz4/Mnk2. And practically soloed a third of it.

After half the party died, (almost imediately). Me and a Rog used very smart tactics to go slowly and pick off as few at a time as possible.

Eventually we made a mad dash for the shrine, the rogue got killed and left group (already mad at the others for bad play and not rezzing out)

I did die a few times. Acid got me twice.

But IMO this quest is only hard when you don't know how to use a few tactics to protect yourself.

Of course, knowing the quest makes a huge difference.

[dopey69]

this quest was stupidly ugly b4 dungeon scaling so i guess now it is worse than b4 lol ouch!

[Zenako]

What so many forget is the nature of the foe they will be facing. You are breaking into the Den of Arcane Thieves. Good prep for this was running Swiped Signet and getting used to dealing with stealthy and spell casting foes at once.

You need resistences, and should be ready or protected against poison. (Name of the quest is a good hint.)

In almost every key location, there are safe paths around the hazards.

The fire bridge for example can be bypassed by running along ledges along the side of the chamber. The acid rooms have narrow ledges you can jump onto and scoot along. You probably will want shield/nightshield effects when messing with the mages, since there is no other resistence to those magic missiles.

There is really only one secret door and all it leads to is an optional chest.

If you can handle Swiped Signet (although it is a lot easier than it used to be), then Proof is in the Poison and Searing Heights at the levels recommended, then you and your group should be able to handle lots of quests in the game.

I have seen capped (level 16) characters go down in flames by being too arrogant about being able to own a level 5 quest (albeit on the Elite setting), so there is little shame in having a hard time beating it when only level 5.

[HolyCrusader2010]

My problem was clearly the buggy dungeon scaling.

And 160 hp at level 5, really? I had 102 hp back then, and I had taken toughness and the human and favored soul enhancments that each gave +10 hp each. I have 14 Con. I thought I was doing fantastic in the hp department. Squishy healer? I am a frontline fighter so far. Mithral full plate, shield, longsword, buffs up and hack&slash! I'm usually the last one to fall, if ever, with my great saves and high ac. Are Favored Souls bad in endgame melee?

[Zenako]

I have a 5th level barbarian with 144 before rages and buffs. Combo of race and class toughness boosts. Using a false life item, things like that all add up.

The key point is that given the quanta of damage being dealt, the difference between 100 HP and 140 HP is the difference between being up and still able to respond and being a dead dude. Two incoming spells doing 65 points for example achieve this result.

Same hold true with the math at endgame sometimes. Delayed Blast Fireballs from the Raid Boss doing 200 points of damage. Once the first DBF one blows away the 150 protection energy spell and does some damage to the victim (leaving them with X-50 HP) the second one lands soon there after for another 200 HP. That 220 HP caster has gone from alive with 170 HP to dead with -30. The 500 HP Barbarian, is less than half wounded at that point.

[parvo]

I'm sure the scaling damage bug made it rough. It's always been a good challenge but now that the bug is fixed, certainly doable.