Minimum Skill Ranks for a Multiclass

**AnderlornLOTR** · 09-15-2009, 11:16 AM

What is minimum Skill Ranks for a multi-class should you have in assuming that you receive average Rogue Tools along the way ...

UMD
Open Locks
Disable Traps
Spot
Search

**KingOfCheese** · 09-15-2009, 11:24 AM

To the extent you can--max them out.

In reality, you probably don't need to.

UMD--max it. The goal is to hit 39 unbuffed--maxing it will get you there eventually (with appropriate gear).

Open locks--most of the important locks in the game can be opened without problem with partial ranks. If you are tight on skill points, this can be skimped on. Taking a rank every other level is liveable.

Disable Traps--probably want to max this--but not maxing it won't be fatal. With current end game traps of importance, a buffed 40 disable is very realiable. 40-15 (item) = 25 - 5 (intel bonus) = 20 - 4 (greater heroism) = 16 - 2 (head of good fortune) = 14 ranks. You risk blowing a trap now and then, but not fatal.

Search--max it. If you can't see them, you can't disable them.

Spot--nice, but optional--can do without or can skimp if skill points are tight.

Again--to the extent you can, max them all. But you can be an effective rogue without maxing.

**Noctus** · 09-15-2009, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by AnderlornLOTR

What is minimum Skill Ranks for a multi-class should you have in assuming that you receive average Rogue Tools along the way ...

UMD
Open Locks
Disable Traps
Spot
Search

Maxed out.

All of them, or you will run into trouble eventually. Only out of Open locks will you be able to skim a bit, 4-6 ranks max, but not more, or you will proof unable to open some doors.

**KingOfCheese** · 09-15-2009, 12:09 PM

This all comes down to how tight your skill points are. If you need/want to only take partial levels, there are ways to compensate.

For example, you can craft Shroud skill point items that will add +6 to dex skills (open lock) or +6 to intel skills (search, disable) or +6 to wis skills (spot). If you are willing to make these items, you can skip 6 ranks that you would otherwise take. It is a little bit of a pain to swap gear around all of the time--but if you are tight on skill points, this is a viable option.

**AnderlornLOTR** · 09-15-2009, 01:26 PM

How is this? I am worried about the concentration and should I really be? The purpose is to serve as the rogue and part time healer for an almost full Warforge Party.

Code:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Cyberdyne Model Three
Level 20 Chaotic Good Warforged Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 176
Spell Points: 1519 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 12
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    10
Dexterity            14                    16
Constitution         10                    12
Intelligence         18                    25
Wisdom               10                    10
Charisma              6                     6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                     6
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         0                     1
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device        8                    27
Haggle                2                     2
Heal                  0                     0
Hide                  6                     6
Intimidate           -2                    -2
Jump                  4                     3
Listen                4                     4
Move Silently         6                     6
Open Lock             6                    16
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                4                     7
Search                8                    24
Spot                  4                    23
Swim                  0                    -2
Tumble                6                     6
Use Magic Device      2                    20.5

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Body
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Repeating Heavy Crossbow
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Force I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Heightening I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Fluidity
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor II


Level 10 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Force I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor III


Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV


Level 16 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Enlarge Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering II


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Enlarge I


Level 20 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III

**Goldeneye** · 09-15-2009, 01:29 PM

18 wiz / 2 rogue, you will have more skills points then you know what to do with. In order of prirority, max:

UMD
Concentration
Search
Disable
Open Lock
Tumble (Put in only 1 rank)
Spot (Not Important, don't want points)
you might also consider: Jump, Balance, and Diplomacy if you have extra points.

In terms of your build: a few suggestions
Max INT, then Max CON, putting points in any other stat for that build is a waste.
Strength: useless... unless you feel like a melee
dex: AC? what ac?
WIS: you will save is going to be weak, use items/spells to increase it, not base stats
CON: super super important, if you have 10 base con you will find yourself dead ... a lot.

Also consider the feat Insightful Reflexes, which uses your INT mod for your reflex save, making your evasion for 2 rogue super useful!!!

Other then that, the 18 wiz/2 rogue is a pretty great build.

**KingOfCheese** · 09-15-2009, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Goldeneye

18 wiz / 2 rogue, you will have more skills points then you know what to do with. In order of prirority, max:

UMD
Concentration
Search
Disable
Open Lock
Tumble (Put in only 1 rank)
Spot (Not Important, don't want points)
you might also consider: Jump, Balance, and Diplomacy if you have extra points.

In terms of your build: a few suggestions
Max INT, then Max CON, putting points in any other stat for that build is a waste.
Strength: useless... unless you feel like a melee
dex: AC? what ac?
WIS: you will save is going to be weak, use items/spells to increase it, not base stats
CON: super super important, if you have 10 base con you will find yourself dead ... a lot.

Also consider the feat Insightful Reflexes, which uses your INT mod for your reflex save, making your evasion for 2 rogue super useful!!!

Other then that, the 18 wiz/2 rogue is a pretty great build.

Completely agree with every point here.

**AnderlornLOTR** · 09-15-2009, 03:13 PM

Why isn't spot important? How do you know if there is a trap there without spot. Or does spotting traps go off your search skill?

**KingOfCheese** · 09-15-2009, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by AnderlornLOTR

Why isn't spot important? How do you know if there is a trap there without spot. Or does spotting traps go off your search skill?

You'll have room for Spot--so I'd take it.

But it isn't required. Traps and trap boxes are non-random in this game. So once you know where a trap is--you'll know for the future. Spot, in that sense, only helps for the 1st time (or first several times, depending on how good your memory is

). Another viable way to find traps without spot is to set them off. At low levels, this might mean death, but at high levels, rogues usually save (and/or take reduced damage, depending on feats). Of course, you'll want to be ahead of the group if you use this approach so as to not kill everyone else.

If you are short on skills, this is a good one to sacrifice--but you won't be short on skills--so you should be able to max out spot.

**AnderlornLOTR** · 09-15-2009, 03:22 PM

I lowered my Str to 8 (the lowest), Increased my Con to 16 (18 after enhancements), kept my Dex at 16 for thief skills and my hvy repeating crossbow or should I get rid of that (it is great to have back-up in PnP but this is DDO).

I traded Spell pen for Insightful reflexes since I have the spell pen enhancements.

The changes in Con puts me at 236 Hit Points.

**AnderlornLOTR** · 09-15-2009, 03:25 PM

I played DDO in 2006 and do remember the old content where the traps are. Of course, any content after 2007 is new to me.

**AnderlornLOTR** · 09-15-2009, 03:28 PM

And oh yes, my will is now at 6. I know at first this is going to suck for will saves until enhancements and equipment.

**KingOfCheese** · 09-15-2009, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by AnderlornLOTR

I lowered my Str to 8 (the lowest), Increased my Con to 16 (18 after enhancements), kept my Dex at 16 for thief skills and my hvy repeating crossbow or should I get rid of that (it is great to have back-up in PnP but this is DDO).

I traded Spell pen for Insightful reflexes since I have the spell pen enhancements.

The changes in Con puts me at 236 Hit Points.

16 Con is good. So long as your Int is maxed, dex is a good place to put your remaining points (mostly for higher reflex save).

I'd dump hvy repeating crossbow. While it will be useful at low levels, you'll find ranged combat not worth it at higher levels. A simple returning throwing axe is sufficient to give you ranged damage if needed--and won't suck up a feat.

At low levels, you won't need the spell pen enhancements. As you get level 14 and up, you'll want to swap feats to pick these up (you can drop one of the mithral feats at that point). To get your spells to hit well at high levels, you'll want to max out spell pen. But this can wait for high levels.

**AnderlornLOTR** · 09-15-2009, 10:00 PM

Round two - Comments?

Code:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Cyberdyne Model Three
Level 20 Chaotic Good Warforged Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 226
Spell Points: 1546 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 17
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength              8                     8
Dexterity            15                    16
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         18                    26
Wisdom                6                     6
Charisma              6                     6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                     5
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         4                     5
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device        8                    32
Haggle               -2                    -2
Heal                 -2                    -2
Hide                  6                     5
Intimidate           -2                    -2
Jump                  3                     1
Listen                2                     2
Move Silently         6                     5
Open Lock             6                    20
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                8                    12
Search                8                    31
Spot                  2                     5
Swim                 -1                    -5
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      2                    21

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Body
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I


Level 4 (Wizard)


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting I


Level 7 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Enlarge Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking II
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II


Level 10 (Wizard)


Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting II


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor III


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Enlarge I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV


Level 16 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV


Level 20 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking III

**KingOfCheese** · 09-16-2009, 11:03 AM

That looks solid.

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