And the Biggest Problem with PvP Is...

[Thrudh]

Nothing wrong with the OP's suggestion... A queue would be fine instead of waiting around in a tavern...

But the others are right that PvP doesn't work in D&D (and DDO) because of the class imbalances...

[Angelus_dead]

Don't normally read your posts

You really shouldn't mention that.

The reason why people continue to play in the pits (besides testing) is to gank or avenge their ganking. If they get peeved enough, with an over-developed sense of revenge, they will continually jump in on their offender until the offender leaves.

That is an inaccurate observation that applies only to a narrow set of possible character builds. It can only happen if the characters on both sides of the match are rather weak.

If I decided to jump into Lobster and clear the pit, my victims would not gain any enjoyment from trying to take revenge. Unless they can switch to a level 20 caster it ain't happening, and for them to need to make that switch means it isn't fun.

Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding human nature... but I've watched enough pvp pits (and been in enough of them) to know the cyclic process.

Limited observation is limited.

[Missing_Minds]

The idea that fighting players is frustrating or impractical shouldn't be used as an excuse. PvP is already in the game, obviously Turbine spent time putting it there, so why not do it right?

Turbine would have to rewrite 3.x rules to make it right aka Balanced. Fact of the matter is that the classes are not balanced. We already have people complaining that one class can do X which they can't defend against, and.. yeah. Casters are nerfed on some of their more fun spells already for PvP, then you have the tickets for griefing...

No, PvP was put in a while back because of enough complaints. This game was NEVER designed for PvP, so be greatful for what you do have currently. For now, ask for things that are within scope of the system.

1. Make them finally give you a leadership board. This was supposed to be given to you PvPers back with Mod 3. I hate PvP, but Turbine stated it back then, so I'll /sign with you guys to get it in.

2. Other styles of PvP arenas. Aka an anything goes area with no nerfs on spells, or anything would be one idea. Let the mage have their full power back at their finger tips. A spell battle areana where casters can compete, a gladiator arena where after X time mobs are thrown into the phray, or even an arena where the environment effects change around such as the ground turns to ice, fog covers the area, rocks drop from the sky, etc.

If there are glitches in the queing and such... Well, honestly, I guess the best thing to do is file bug reports on why you think the system isn't working correctly. And if you find a bug, continue after it. I mean it took months, but we were able to get them to make changes to ranged attacks 1.5 years back or so. Still trying to get more made to them. But the idea is stick with it. Why do I say stick with it? There isn't going to be budget either for a rewrite of the system (at least in the near future. The rest of the PrEs need to be finished at a minimum), but you know.. in about a year or so if you've garnered enough support, I bet it will become a lot more feasible.

[Missing_Minds]

If I decided to jump into Lobster and clear the pit, my victims would not gain any enjoyment from trying to take revenge. Unless they can switch to a level 20 caster it ain't happening, and for them to need to make that switch means it isn't fun.

Naw, I tend to call in the troops then. No need to switch.

[Angelus_dead]

Melee PvP is broken beyond anything due to Glancing Blows.

Shouldn`t take much to remove this feature so that a true contest of builds can measure themselves in Melee.

That is false.

You probably meant to say "Grazing Hits", but that would still be false. Both glancing and grazing attacks are part of the DDO rules, and how well a character copes with those effects reflects on the power of his build. If you start changing the rules for PVP, then the outcome of the contest is only valid for PVP.

[Kistilan]

In Red = Response.

You really shouldn't mention that.

Why Not?

That is an inaccurate observation that applies only to a narrow set of possible character builds. It can only happen if the characters on both sides of the match are rather weak.

Hmm, I killed Blah this way with a weak creature. I wouldn't say Blah is weak either. Inaccurate observation? Or maybe you failed to understand the idea of ganking ie unfair fighting, which is fair if you're capable of doing it (and thus why I do it). You don't agree to put down a gun at a sword fight. You feint and shoot the bastard.

If I decided to jump into Lobster and clear the pit, my victims would not gain any enjoyment from trying to take revenge. Unless they can switch to a level 20 caster it ain't happening, and for them to need to make that switch means it isn't fun.

Tu coques -- Limited Observation is Limited.

Limited observation is limited.

.: Ad hoc & Ignore Again Implemented

[Angelus_dead]

No, PvP was put in a while back because of enough complaints.

More precisely, it was because Turbine was trying to get Japanese and Chinese companies to run licensed DDO servers, and the (notional) Asian customer profile demanded PVP features.

Of course, the kind of PVP that DDO got wasn't nearly up to the standard of fulfilling that need.

[sephiroth1084]

PvP is fun, or can be. I've spent a few hours here and there doing a 12-man melee with my guild, or some challenges against other characters, but ultimately, the OP should harken to the fact that nearly everyone who has replied here has said the same thing: PvP in DDO doesn't work.

You may think that a balance can be reached, but the fact is that unless a melee characters gets really, really lucky, a caster/cleric will win. Period. They just have too many tools in their arsenal, and most of them do not require being next to their foe.

In one of the 12-man PvPs I participated in (6 on 6), I played a wizard, and turned the entire rest of the team to stone. Then level drained them so they couldn't break on anything but a natural 20. With a save each minute, that's potentially 20 minutes before they get to do anything. After the rest of my team took them out (everyone bare-handed just to rub it in), I changed tactics and set everyone dancing with Otto's Irresistible Dance. If that weren't enough, Scorching Ray (a lvl 2 spell), can do upwards of 300 damage a shot, easily. Other spells can deal twice that against multiple opponents, and all can be performed from well outside melee range or have no defense against them. Power Word Stun/Kill vs. many characters is just an auto-win.

Another time, I squared off on my wizard against 2 clerics. I wracked up about 10 kills to their 1 (they aren't very twitchy), before they discovered that they could just place Maximized Blade Barriers at all the spawn points, killing me before I could react: die, respawn dead, rinse repeat. They thought it was very funny.

The point is, all these characters work well together when they are fighting monsters, because that is what the game is designed around. They do not function well against each other, and there is no way to reconcile the two.

[Angelus_dead]

The point is, all these characters work well together when they are fighting monsters, because that is what the game is designed around. They do not function well against each other, and there is no way to reconcile the two.

If you wanted to add good PVP to DDO, you'd simply avoid that situation:
The normal existing characters aren't used in primary PVP competition. You pick a PVP character from a list of pregenerated builds and use that.

Here's a quote which explains why D&D PVP shouldn't use normal player characters:

DDO is based on the game rules of D&D 3.5, and although it has many deviations (both intentional and accidental), it generally works towards the same gameplay objective (frequently surpassing the original on formal metrics).

Combat between characters built using the adventurer advancement rules was not one of the objectives of D&D 3.5. The designers explicitly ignored which character could win in a fight, and instead balanced them around how well they could contribute to a group facing encounters with monsters and traps. (They often failed at that objective as well, but the effort was made)

When PVP occurs between adventurer heros, it is either in the service of roleplaying (when alignment differences become too deep to suppress!), or as a nerd-macho test of whose build is tougher. It's not a fun game in and of itself. However, there is a way to have fun PVP matches using the D&D rules, and many people play that way. The key is that you don't use characters built according to the D&D system, and instead select from creatures who were roughly based on D&D monsters but then redesigned to work when arrayed against each other, and given point-buy costs commensurate with their power.

That's how you get fun PVP out of D&D, and an analogous approach would be the fastest way to add a satisfying PVP component to DDO as well: give up on making PVP enjoyable for the characters people play already, and instead let them pick from 3-10 manually-built characters tuned for each competitive scenario. It could be Silver Flame vs Xorians for one board, and Orc vs Hobgoblin for another.

That kind of system could be viewed as a more extreme form of the Player Vs Monster Player gametype used in LOTRO, except that instead of PvMP it goes all the way to MPvMP. Obviously if it doesn't involve existing characters many people will be less attracted to it, but eliminating player adventurers from the equation would be the swiftest and surest way to get a PVP system that meets the triple goals of balance, complexity, and verisimilitude.

[Gorstag]

All I really play is rogue's. Now why would I even attempt to pvp with a rogue? There is nothing to balance a rogue with even other melees in pvp, much less casters.

[sephiroth1084]

If you wanted to add good PVP to DDO, you'd simply avoid that situation:
The normal existing characters aren't used in primary PVP competition. You pick a PVP character from a list of pregenerated builds and use that.

Here's a quote which explains why D&D PVP shouldn't use normal player characters:

Go play King of the Monsters or Blood Roar Primal Fury. Why hop on Dungeon and Dragons if what you desperately want is a fighting game?

[Angelus_dead]

Go play King of the Monsters or Blood Roar Primal Fury. Why hop on Dungeon and Dragons if what you desperately want is a fighting game?

You have no idea what you're talking about. It might help if you tried reading more thoroughly.

[sephiroth1084]

You have no idea what you're talking about. It might help if you tried reading more thoroughly.

The suggestion was made that DDO PvP could be "fixed" by giving us the option of choosing from a selection of pre-generated characters that are balanced against each other for such. The base for this was that of monsters modified for player control and combat. Kind of removes the whole point of combat via DDO doesn't it?

[Darrendil]

I just wonder what happens in PnP when a party confronts another party... Isn´t it PvP, what happens when drizzt confronts artemis? I know its a novel and it shouldn´t apply, but what i´m trying to say is that i totally disagree with the ones stating that in 3.5 PvP was not included (altough actually the term PvP is just a mmo term) when someone in PnP confronts an evil wizard which was harrasing the asses of some townsfolk, isn´t that PvP?

I have to say i´m quite new to ddo, but not to mmo´s as a whole. In absolutely every mmo out there PvP was implemented upto some kind of extend, meaning it was implemented for good, you could log on one day and just do some PvP and actually have fun at it...

I would so much love seeing some sort of system implemented.. The GW system sounds fit for this game.

[sephiroth1084]

I just wonder what happens in PnP when a party confronts another party... Isn´t it PvP, what happens when drizzt confronts artemis? I know its a novel and it shouldn´t apply, but what i´m trying to say is that i totally disagree with the ones stating that in 3.5 PvP was not included (altough actually the term PvP is just a mmo term) when someone in PnP confronts an evil wizard which was harrasing the asses of some townsfolk, isn´t that PvP?

I have to say i´m quite new to ddo, but not to mmo´s as a whole. In absolutely every mmo out there PvP was implemented upto some kind of extend, meaning it was implemented for good, you could log on one day and just do some PvP and actually have fun at it...

I would so much love seeing some sort of system implemented.. The GW system sounds fit for this game.

I haven't done much high level play, but it can be kinda silly, where one or two members are carrying the whole group--usually a cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer (roughly in that order). Honestly, I'm not entirely sure how this would play out, though I've read several people's documentation of their experiences playing a high level wizard, and have a feeling that it would fair far worse in PnP than in DDO.

There is probably a band of one or two levels where PvP in DDO is fun and fairly balanced. I'm thinking maybe around level 5-8, though I wouldn't swear to that.

[Darrendil]

As usual, arcane spellcasters are foddermeat in low lvl´s, but are absolutely awesome higher up. In regards as to how a high lvl arcane spellcaster would fare against an equal lvl say... fighter, although i would say that the spellcaster has the upper hand, he is still beatable, i´m refering obviously to PnP.
But that´s why i stated that a system such as the one in GW would come in handy. Team oriented PvP. The team´s class selection could be hindered so as to prohibit an arcane spellcasters only team and such.

Just my thought.

[Hendrik]

Only thing 'good' about PvP is DDO is the Challenge System.


Only PvP thing related I use, and enjoy, in DDO.

[Angelus_dead]

when someone in PnP confronts an evil wizard which was harrasing the asses of some townsfolk, isn´t that PvP?

No, the wizard is an NPC, meaning "Non Player Character". He is a PVE enemy just like an orc or dragon.

In absolutely every mmo out there PvP was implemented upto some kind of extend, meaning it was implemented for good, you could log on one day and just do some PvP and actually have fun at it...

Most games which include PVP had designed their classes with the intention of functioning in PVP. That is not what DDO did, although some people have gotten that impression.

That's not unfounded: it doesn't make much sense to include PVP without having designed for it. You could say that DDO's PVP feature is false advertising, as it gives an illusionary impression that this gameplay is supported by the design.

[Darrendil]

No, the wizard is an NPC, meaning "Non Player Character". He is a PVE enemy just like an orc or dragon.

And in terms of combat, who exactly uses the wizard, dragon, orc to fight the characters? isn´t it the DM?
Semantics aside, when it comes to combat, the evil wizard is controlled by the DM, meaning the DM uses the Wizard to fight the other characters. It´s pretty obvious to me that that is PvP, it doesn´t matter who uses which character, the point is there are characters in combat.
Once more, the terms PvP and PvE were not originated from PnP, but from online games. It´s not correct to say PvE on a PnP game where the Environment is not actually the Environment but a campaign created by the DM, where all the challenges have a meaning campaign wise and the Environment is impersonated by the DM.

[ManinBlaq]

Class balance, in general is a very poor excuse for lack of PvP content.

Off the top of my head I can bring up 3.5 srd 'core' material that would make (nearly) any melee a threat to casters -- and that would simply to be implementing Spell Resistance as designed.

That's just step 1. More could be done - very simply, to put up the illusion of 'balance'.


Balanced classes aren't the real issue however. The real problem with PvP, is that there is no 'stamina'. Even if you make all classes 'balanced' vs one another - everyone has instant kill aces up their sleeves. It starts at low-med levels, and just gets more ridiculous through 20.

Effectively @ level 20 - [conservatively speaking] a 1v1 match would last less than 10 seconds [and honestly, I would expect the majority of them to be half that]. It would take longer to 'buff' for the match, than the match itself.

It comes down to whoever gets their ace out [successfully] first.

So really - for PvP to be successful. For it to be 'Fun' and 'Meaningful': participants would need the same ridiculous stat inflation that the mobs receive out in the quests.

Basically, going into a pvp match a player would receive:
HP x 10
Abilities x 3
Saves x 3
AC x 2

or perhaps merely HP x 1000 would be more appropriate. [But then I think PvP would merely degenerate into exclusively using con damagers.]