Drop the grazing blow system

[eonfreon]

And, eon, that is my only point.

There are flaws in its implementation, but those can be corrected by the game designers. However, I don't agree we should "drop it". If there are bugs, pester Turbine to death so they fix it. Take 404error hostage if you want. If there are some tweaks that could make you cope with the change better, push for them like I tried to do in beta. But, saying to "drop it" is not something I'll agree with, however.

As I mentioned earlier, I believe a change of this kind was required before making AC matter.

I'm still wondering why there is an activation time to levers and doors, or why being hits for small amounts should interrupt us.

I could maybe see it for a huge, damaging critical hit but...

I know that's your point Borr. And as always I'll grin and bear it and thank my lucky stars I made the right decisions which Turbine has not yet invalidated or weakened.

Yeah, I'm not in the "Just Get Rid of it Crowd". But, I am in favor of dropping it until the Grazing Hit flinch mechanic is removed. Because it adds nothing to the game currently, other then to cost us slightly more resources, or a lot of resources for those that had created builds that are specifically hit by this.

They certainly didn't lower Mob to-hit like they said would be the next step. I know, I know, they'll get to it soon(tm). But how much do you want to bet they'll work on the other part of their "plan" first, and raise Mob AC so that we finally start getting Grazing Hits on Mobs on decent warrior builds too and need to actually wait on out later attacks to guarantee a hit and can't jump all over the place using their own bodies against them like I usually do.
The high AC MOB will force me to "stand and deliver" if I only get Grazing Hits on te first or even second attack. That part I don't mind, bring them on. I'm not a gambling man, but I'm willing to bet that Turbine will raise Mob AC long before they lower MOB to-hit, like they said they would.

Certainly I'm not frothing at the mouth about it. But I have a question.

In Beta we all noticed two glaring mistakes right away.
One: Rogue's were getting Sneak Attack damage on Grazing Hits.
Two: We were flinching and being interrupted on Grazing Hits that did little to NO DAMAGE.

Well, I'm pretty sure Grazing Hits still cause interruptions and flinches.
How about the Rogue bug with Grazing Hits?
I'm pretty willing to bet that they fixed THAT rather quickly.
But the interruptions were too low a priority I'm sure.

They could at least acknowledge that it's a known issue or just say that's intended. Sure, I'll grumble, but I'd at least appreciate some word on this.

So, of course they aren't going to change this system. But I certainly ain't gonna give them any Kudos for it. Quite the opposite. I think whoever did the actual programming did a rather p1ss-poor job of it.

[eonfreon]

I read that post you linked and I agree Borr. But you touched on one of the other weaknesses I see in this system that makes it's implementation rather premature or badly thought through.
The High AC guy. This is not to counter the god mode of High AC S&B, but rather the HIgh AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes. The S&B was balanced by taking little damage, Intimidating to keep aggro, and killing rather slowly. The Monk splash has the AC and the dps, so he was unbalanced in comparison.
So they gave the S&B a bone with the passive DR aspect of holding a shield in relation to Grazing Hits. But he kills soooooo much slower then the TWF Ranger/Monk, that the extra DR protection that the S&B gets is practically invalidated by the TWF killing faster and still taking less damage because he's still taking less hits, Grazing or otherwise. If they had at least given armor some additional DR then that would give a little extra bonus to the S&B, since most Ranger/Monks can't wear armor or they lose AC.
But as is, the ones Turbine was trying to "take down a peg" a largely unaffected, they just have to heal themselves a bit more.
But since the S&B is still so freaking slow to kill, he's taking MORE damage then the equal AC Monk, even though the S&B has more DR, because the S&B is getting hit with double the amount of Grazing Hits.
So once again it backfires.
But yeah, we might as well keep the system. This way it'll be the only system new players know and they'll have far less illusions of the benefit of high AC low dps as compared to no AC high dps.
So on Paladin I've gone from 60 AC, to 50 AC, and now I'm down to 30 (I think other then being naked I can't get lower). So I suppose I should grumble out one thank you to Turbine.

Turbine, thank you for getting rid of the AC grind I was involved in by making it far less then worth my while to even bother. Thank you for clearing up my gear slots since I no longer worry about Armored Bracers or +5 Protection Items. Heck, my Icy Raiments was gathering dust before already.
Radiance Guard DT Vestments for the win .

[eonfreon]

Take 404error hostage if you want.

Hmmm, not a bad idea. I know a guy who knows a guy who's got a cousin who works for some people that just might make this happen .

But I think it's a bit expensive so we might all have to pinch in.

I can see it now; "Fix the interruptions on Grazing Hits or else....." .

[Aspenor]

Like redoubt said - making a system where a 60-70 ac level 16-20 ranger is UNABLE to open a door in a level 2 quest on elite because a level 3 kobold can hit and damage a 'epic level character' only 40% of the time is completely bogus.

Turbine basically said "We put way too many ac mods into the game, and dont have the guts to nurf some, so instead were going to nurf the ENTIRE COMBAT SYSTEM and pretend that wont make anyone mad also".

Defend away tho.

Uh, kill the stupid kobolds. You can't kill kobolds on a level 16-20 character?

[Borror0]

The High AC guy. This is not to counter the god mode of High AC S&B

Eladrin disagrees with you. Take a look the OP in the Grazing Hits thread, he did list that as one of the motivation behind the change.

The S&B was balanced by taking little damage, Intimidating to keep aggro, and killing rather slowly.

I don't think many will agree with you on that statement.

Many people rather think that S&B was underpowered as illustrated by the numerous threads discussing ways to improve S&B since Module 7.

[eonfreon]

Eladrin disagrees with you. Take a look the OP in the Grazing Hits thread, he did list that as one of the motivation behind the change.

I don't remember him saying anything about S&B AC specifically but rather "too" high AC characters in general being a problem to challenge with damage.

S&B has other problems. Being too powerful to be challenged under the old rules wasn't one of them. AS I've said they already took long to kill the MOB, so their main saving grace is that even if it took awhile they still were relatively unharmed due to AC.

The Monk Splash AC was the problem and this doesn't barely even come close to addressing that. So a Ranger/Monk will take 10 grazing damage instead of the 5 grazing dmg the S&B takes per hit. But the S&B gives the MOB more opportunities to attack and cause the S&B more accumulated dmg then the Ranger/Monk with the same AC who kills 2 times faster.
I'll look up his OP on the subject later and check what Eladrin states about S&B AC vs Ranger/Monk AC

I don't think many will agree with you on that statement.

Many people rather think that S&B was underpowered as illustrated by the numerous threads discussing ways to improve S&B since Module 7.

Sigh, Borr, that my freaking point. That statement makes sense if you put it in it's context, not cutting it out to address seperately like you've done. Obviously you did not get what I'm saying.

No, S&B is NOT balanced. They are MORE balanced in AC to dps ratio in COMPARISON to the Ranger/Monk, whose AC to dps ratio is far more unbalanced. The S&B is far more hurt by this change then the Ranger/Monk. The paltry extra protection the S&B has over the TWF Ranger/Monk does little to lessen the disparity. So they hurt the S&B defense while adding little to his offense. They barely affect the Ranger/Monk AC because the killing speed of the TWF makes a mockery of the MOB's attack speed- they can attack what 2-3 times before they are killed, maybe 6-10 attacks if they are really tough (not talking Bosses here).
How many attacks can they attempt on a S&B before the MOB are finally killed by the S&B? I'm sure it's a lot more.

Okay, I'll bite. How does this system improve S&B?

Remember I'm not against this system per se, but I'd like to know how this helps the high AC S&B.

[Tarackian]

/signed.......gawd do i agree with this...why even have AC if we're going to let them hit on a 13 or whatever....just roll the dang dice and FORGET all the rules Turbine. This grazing system is for the cows.........not DNDers....

Because I should not hit mobs on any 10. I should hit mobs when I exceed their AC and/or on a 20.

Mobs should not hit me on any 13. They should hit me when they exceed my AC and/or on a 20.

I disagree with the entire concept of the grazing system and feel it dumbs the game down too much. Many of the changes that Turbine is making lately push us all into a playstyle of high HP and high DPS and I am against the pigeon holing that is taking place currently. The grazing system is part of a series of events/changes which reduce options and push all players toward being cookie cutters. To this point, I've actually changed my new character from being a high-AC dex based FvS to being a STR based FvS with little emphasis on AC. What's the point in doing all that work to get high-AC if they mobs hit me on every 13???

Oh yeah, the last guy who gave me positive rep was only worth 3 points, so I hope you don't slap me again for having a different opinion than yours or I'll prolly be negative.

[eonfreon]

Just reread Eladrin's Op on Grazing Hits.
Sorry, Borr, it does not say that this is a counter to the high AC S&B, but rather to high AC characters in general. We all know the problems he's referring to isn't just AC, but the combination of AC and dps, which can trivialize the content if high enough. So I know they want to hit the Ranger/Monk splashes and make them take more damage so that they can at least feel like they are working hard and taking punishment, while the S&B guy who already has a harder time, is affected even more.

I'm not saying that's even wrong. I don't even disagree that high AC is a "problem" in a video game. But the problem was disproportional and Turbine's implementation actually widens the power gap between S&B and TWF.
If you had a 70 AC S&B and 70 AC Ranger/Monk in your group at least you could rely on the S&B to not take too much damage.

Now the S&B is even more of a liability, because his defense is weakened but his offense is barely given anything to come even close to trying to compensate.

So my full statement stands:
The High AC guy. This is not to counter the god mode of High AC S&B, but rather the HIgh AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes. The S&B was balanced by taking little damage, Intimidating to keep aggro, and killing rather slowly. The Monk splash has the AC and the dps, so he was unbalanced in comparison.

Remember the term "unbalanced in comparison" summarizes that paragraph. You did me a disservice by cutting it up and inferring that I meant S&B are Balanced in the game. I am quite offended and rankled by your assumption of my stupidity . I aint quite that dumb .

[Borror0]

I don't remember him saying anything about S&B AC specifically but rather "too" high AC characters in general being a problem to challenge with damage.

The number of times I have quoted this post by now is ridiculous:

"Why are you doing this?"
Expected effects of this include:
• Extremely high AC does not grant essentially complete immunity to monsters, though it still provides a substantial advantage (base weapon damage / 2, with no bonuses). This is a much gentler way of addressing some AC issues that DDO has than many other proposals.
• Shields may gain additional attractiveness.

In the above quote, you seem to suggest that it matters whether or not his statement was directed uniquely at S&B characters. It does not. As a matter, it would be problematic for me if he did because it would mean, by definition, that it does not apply to the point I am defending.

The statement of yours I was replying to was "The High AC guy. This is not to counter the god mode of High AC S&B, but rather the high AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes." and that is false. As the quote above demonstrates, it was to attack all types of AC build with a bias favoring those who do wear shields. I you prefer, the problem was "The High AC guy." and not only "the high AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes."

S&B has other problems. Being too powerful to be challenged under the old rules wasn't one of them.

Assuming that a S&B character deals 50% of a DPS build's DPS and that there are four melee characters in the group, the overall DPS loss is of about 12% which is a meaningless loss if you are to gain survivability many times higher. Of course, the percentage of loss reduces even lower in a raid (~6%).

The problem is, why slow us down when we don't need to?

If the players learn to play with the S&B character, it's an easy button but the content is already too easy so there is no reason to learn.

AS I've said they already took long to kill the MOB, so their main saving grace is that even if it took awhile they still were relatively unharmed due to AC.

To present time as a balancing factor means that you don't realize that time is what gamers want to sacrifice the least.

Obviously you did not get what I'm saying.

No, I didn't. I had a clue of what you could have meant but I didn't find it clear enough.

Okay, I'll bite. How does this system improve S&B?

It doesn't. Worse, if I thought it did, I would need an head exam. But, it does allow the room for improvement.

As I have established earlier, players don't want to skip on time. The faster they finish fights, the more loot and XP they will get per the hour. Therefore, players will try to squeeze as much DPS as they can in a build. As it was not enough, high DPS is more popular because it contributes better to the fantasy MMOs try to fulfill. That is, we all want to feel like heroes. Both of these facts increase the competition for S&B characters who rely on lower DPS but greater survivability to the point where most gamers will skip on S&B simply because it slows them down and is not needed.

For that reason, if you want players to play tanks, you have to force them by increasing the damage output of NPCs to a level that DPS characters can't manage without the help of a tank to reduce the incoming damage. However, the survivability between high and low AC is incredibly high. Even worse, the difference between 90% avoidance and 95% is twice less melee damage. If designers want to balance S&B, they'll have to nerf high AC somehow.

Don't get me wrong, S&B has gotten worse in M9 on many aspects and grazing hits is at the cause of a one of them.

However, I do think that something alike grazing hits was needed for the reasons Eladrin listed in his OP (and that so many people don't seem to even understand).

[Mylon]

A few things to note:

Level 20 in DDO is more like level 30 or more in pen and paper. All of the bonuses characters can acquire in this game (such as many of the action point enhancements, and in many cases predictable encounters which leads to lots of pre-buffing) tend to add up to much higher powered level 20s than the pen and paper would produce. There's a reason 21+ in pen and paper everyone gets the same epic bonus to attack and saves.

Debuffs, sunder. There are ways to lower high ACs so other people can hit. I actually like how sunder works in this game compared to the PnP.

Secondary attacks. In PnP later levels a fighter's first attack is supposed to be a guaranteed hit. Likewise with monst monsters with multiple attacks. Bonuses to hit are supposed to make that third attack more reliable and that fourth attack possible. Without the 20/15/10/5 BAB system and anyone being able to swing 4 times in a round at full attack bonus, it's obvious that AC becomes so much more important for players _and_ monsters.

All that said, the options are as follows:

Move to a system truer to the PnP, with lower attack bonuses for secondary attacks.

Design smarter encounters with enemies making proper use of debuffs (a big collective of dispels when the encounter starts might be a start).

An extra system to compensate for the differences. Such as the grazing hit system.

I do think there should be some means to acquire extra DR only versus grazing hits, though. Base damage may not sound like a lot, but a 6d6 slam can hurt.

[eonfreon]

In the above quote, you seem to suggest that it matters whether or not his statement was directed uniquely at S&B characters. It does not. As a matter, it would be problematic for me if he did because it would mean, by definition, that it does not apply to the point I am defending.

Gotcha. No that wasn't what I was saying at all. I was fully aware he was talking about the overall AC issue. I know what you're defending, to some extent. And I prefer this system to several alternatives. But the truth of the matter is that it is NOT just one AC issue, it's manifold, so this is far more hurtful then it needed to be. This is what I was bringing up. I do think the PrE's help, though.

The statement of yours I was replying to was "The High AC guy. This is not to counter the god mode of High AC S&B, but rather the high AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes." and that is false. As the quote above demonstrates, it was to attack all types of AC build with a bias favoring those who do wear shields. I you prefer, the problem was "The High AC guy." and not only "the high AC of the Exploiter or Mnk splashes."

Thank you now I see our misunderstanding. I know this is about the overall AC issue. But my point is that there are 2 parts to the AC issue. The "traditional" idea is that a "high AC low dps more survivable" character should play the "Tank" to distract the enemy and deflect the damage (not absorb it) while a supposedly "low AC high dps" character does the major damage. This game originally allowed the idea of the High AC to compensate for the Low dps and in some cases the Low hp of some builds. Now suddenly there is a new system to wear away hp far quicker introduced. Yet there is no trade-off for those that are changed. They are just "affected".

So now the high HP high dps guy becomes the more "Preferred Tank". Hit Points and DR now substitute even more for AC. It is so much better a defense since high AC doesn't reduce nearly as much damage as before. And if needed for "defense" a THF or TWF can quickly grab a shield and reduce damage enough to heal up and then switch back to dps mode and trade blows again.

Assuming that a S&B character deals 50% of a DPS build's DPS and that there are four melee characters in the group, the overall DPS loss is of about 12% which is a meaningless loss if you are to gain survivability many times higher. Of course, the percentage of loss reduces even lower in a raid (~6%).

But they no longer "gain survivability many times higher", they now gain it a bit less due to Grazing Hits. Of course that dps loss doesn't hurt the group much but he is still more of a liability then before. The fact that the game is easy enough that it doesn't matter is not the point.
To us Elite is a cakewalk (sometimes ) but to others Hard is Darn Tough . I know, I know, they should stay out of Elite.

It doesn't. Worse, if I thought it did, I would need an head exam. But, it does allow the room for improvement.

I know it doesn't (improve S&B), that's why I realized you misunderstood me. I'm just saying rather than address the AC issue it hurt the AC issue by making S&B even worse.
Because it's no problem for us TWF to compensate. We just do what we were supposed to and the fact our AC is devalued doesn't effect what we do - I get hit a little bit more but not enough to be worrisome, even in mid-AC mode 50-60 AC. S&B could hit 70 AC without dealing with the buffs I had to so they had that advantage at least, not quite so much now.
I just defend the idea that it was premature and it wouldn't hurt to "pause" it, perhaps for Normal, if that was possible.
I rather like Grazing Hits except for the interruption mechanic, that can get really old. Wear my character down sure, but differentiate that it's "Grazing" dmg and not "Direct" dmg. 1-10 damage is a trifling matter, it shouldn't distract me from turning a switch, darn it . Heck, neither should anything less then a 100 dmg, but whatever.

To present time as a balancing factor means that you don't realize that time is what gamers want to sacrifice the least.

Right, that's why it was a bad balance but a balance nonetheless. Out of any four melees in a group, having 1 AC S&B can be quite good. Having more then one is usually a mistake. The group is NOT being slowed down by the S&B because since the rest of the melee are TWF or THF the dps loss is minimal but if a S&B can deflect damage well enough and hold aggo well enough (intimidate) while allowing the dps crew to maximize their dps then all the better, far easier on the cleric and the Wizard too. Now you might as well have a high HP intimidate (a Barb usually)
character in that role, since high HP is just gotten that much better than AC.
And Barbarians, despite popular opinion, do not always require a healer "stapled to their ass". That "healer" can be themselves with just a splash of Wand Using Classes. Hit points are the very thing the Devs want to "wear down" thus that value just went up as the value of ways to protect Hit Points went down. We're not going to die from this, it's not a critical hit, just a thing to make us drink more pots, cast more wands, repair, etc. And due to the weird order of the way DR is applied you can easily reduce damage to next to nothing but the "traditional" manner, the shield-blocking Tactics Fighter is further hamstrung. Slow thoughtful combat is further devalued over hack-and-slash, fast dps attacks.
Good thing I'm a hack-and-slasher type LOL.

As I have established earlier, players don't want to skip on time. The faster they finish fights, the more loot and XP they will get per the hour. Therefore, players will try to squeeze as much DPS as they can in a build. As it was not enough, high DPS is more popular because it contributes better to the fantasy MMOs try to fulfill. That is we all want to feel like heroes[. Both of these facts increase the competition for S&B characters who rely on lower DPS but greater survivability to the point where most gamers will skip on S&B simply because it slows them down and is not needed.

For that reason, if you want players to play tanks, you have to force them by increasing the damage output of NPCs to a level that DPS characters can't manage without the help of a tank to reduce the incoming damage. However, the survivability between high and low AC is incredibly high. Even worse, the difference between 90% avoidance and 95% is twice less melee damage. If designers want to balance S&B, they'll have to nerf high AC somehow.

Yes. Actually they HAVE already nerfed high AC, in a very inefficient and shortsighted way. AND in the process they've actually made S&B even worse!!!

Don't get me wrong, S&B has gotten worse in M9 on many aspects and grazing hits is at the cause of a one of them.

Yes, that was my point. Grazing Hits is another problem for S&B, so their Grind just became less important, but although I do think the PrE's are a good step to it, they don't allow DR enhancements for alternative ways to achieve the same ends, it's either play this PrE or find magic items. That's why I think it should have been delayed a bit in implementation. But oh well.

However, I do think that something alike grazing hits was needed for the reasons Eladrin listed in his OP (and that so many people don't seem to even understand).

Sure, have Grazing Hits, but DO IT RIGHT and until then TURN IT OFF for anything below Elite, okay Hard maybe, I like Grazing HIts so I'll gladly face it, by not even being effected by it .

So no need to "do away with" certainly, but I sure wish they could have prioritized some other things and helped out S&B a little more before they made things even tougher for them. They could have delayed this. And they certainly could have fixed the stupid flinch and interrupt stuff before activating this system.

While I agree that this system has merit and it is likely just a matter of tweaking , I think it was rather premature. So this is just my attempt to pester Turbine.

I merely want them to acknowledge that things that annoy us also matter and I unrealistically wish they would have spent a little more time on fixing things, related to this new system, such as flinching. Yes the S&B have the nice new PrEs, but a little extra attack speed would have been nice too to compensate for the small loss of defense.

Since the DA system is already in place to stop us from trying to bypass things by running past and activating doors/items without fighting what we're supposed to, they could prioritize fixing the flinch on Graze mechanic so that it doesn't interrupt us.

I just hope they at least give some real consideration to changing the interruptions. And allow those who want to resist some more damage do so through Feats, Enhancements, and more DR items. Maybe even Stances.

I like it how it is for Elite. Although I think the damage for Grazing should have more ways for further reduction in exchange for something else. And if they truly plan on raising MOB AC to challenge our to-hit they really need to give us a little more to our 'Base" damage compared to the MOB base damage.

Again, stances and enhancements would be nice. More choices, more headaches , but I appreciate having them, nonetheless.

As always it's just another bunch of challenges. The challenge being teaching PUGS to play nice . The other challenge being making me want to get away from the safety of my Guild .

EDIT" Well of course I edited it. That wall of text means many many grammatical and spelling errors. Anglais iz nao mi 1rst language, bruther .

[Borror0]

Sure, have Grazing Hits, but DO IT RIGHT and until then TURN IT OFF for anything below Elite, okay Hard maybe

Pretty much everything that you said turns around this message, so I'll reply to this line only.

If they didn't get quite right, then they have to leave it on. Turning it off would be a mistake. By leaving it on, it'll allow them to gather data. It's certainly too early to turn it off right now: there is a DS bug that affects the validity of the data, they are too many people who dislike grazing hits to even give them a chance so you've got to give them the time to shallow the pill before they can post honest feedback, players are not fully geared out yet, removing the system will give the anti-grazing hits crew reason (when they were wrong) and anger them again when the system comes back,etc.

If a system is poorly implemented, depending on the nature of the system, it may be better to leave it on. I don't think it's too disruptive to gameplay to warrant turning it off. If they don't plan any tweaks to monster balance for Module 10 and that we,ll have to wait for module 11, maybe, but I hope that it is not case.

[Gelandor]

I hit you with ~35 positive rep for a buffer against differing opinions, and also because I don't really like the system either.

I gave you rep because that was cool of you to do!

[TechNoFear]

I think the game has changed and high DPS with low/no damage mitigation builds are no longer the optimum.

I was out in the devil battleground and we were trying to do some testing about it. It seems wildly erratic. I'll go back out again, of course, and see if we can figure anything conclusive out, but it seems buggy so far.

That, and it is a royal kick in the junk to anyone who has good AC and/or high to-hit.

I have over 400 solo kills in the Battleground with my 17 paladin. Using a twr shield and Angel Skin negates all grazes. I think I only used 2 CMW wands to do it (as there are plenty of shrines).

Named require a bit of tactics (run away! being the only option in some cases)

[uhgungawa]

If you have high dps and high hp this is fine. However, that is the exact character bias I am complaining about. Low (300-350hp) high AC (>65) characters are massive penalized by this. Unless you always have a dedicated cleric running mass cures.

My guild runs >50% without any healer. Damage avoidance is the forte. With this change, damage avoidance is incredible difficult. Very few AC builds have access to DR. (Pure monk is the only one I can think of.)

My ranger/rogue, for example, has self buffed AC in the low 60s and right at 300 hp. I could, with a combination of buffs, self healing and careful play, out survive and outdamage many "dps builds" because I could stay in the fight longer (the dps guys would have to back out for taking too much damage.) With the low-ish hp that doesn't work any longer. Getting hit that often (even for a small amount) in combination with the regular hits from the mobs is too much. So, I suppose I'm just spouting sour apples, but I'm looking at a serious problem with my oldest character. Can ya blame me for not liking the system?

Here's your problem. you are just getting hit, not grazed. Your AC would need to be a bit higher than that to be a high AC toon out in the new area. My highest AC toon is around a 60 AC and has no problems that can't be delt with, but then again I gave it 550 HP not 300

[eonfreon]

Pretty much everything that you said turns around this message, so I'll reply to this line only.

If they didn't get quite right, then they have to leave it on. Turning it off would be a mistake. By leaving it on, it'll allow them to gather data. It's certainly too early to turn it off right now: there is a DS bug that affects the validity of the data, they are too many people who dislike grazing hits to even give them a chance so you've got to give them the time to shallow the pill before they can post honest feedback, players are not fully geared out yet, removing the system will give the anti-grazing hits crew reason (when they were wrong) and anger them again when the system comes back,etc.

If a system is poorly implemented, depending on the nature of the system, it may be better to leave it on. I don't think it's too disruptive to gameplay to warrant turning it off. If they don't plan any tweaks to monster balance for Module 10 and that we,ll have to wait for module 11, maybe, but I hope that it is not case.

Fair enough. Keeping this system active in all it's flawed glory will indeed generate plenty of feedback for the Devs to mull over.

[redoubt]

IThey certainly didn't lower Mob to-hit like they said would be the next step. I know, I know, they'll get to it soon(tm). But how much do you want to bet they'll work on the other part of their "plan" first, and raise Mob AC so that we finally start getting Grazing Hits on Mobs on decent warrior builds too and need to actually wait on out later attacks to guarantee a hit and can't jump all over the place using their own bodies against them like I usually do.
The high AC MOB will force me to "stand and deliver" if I only get Grazing Hits on te first or even second attack. That part I don't mind, bring them on. I'm not a gambling man, but I'm willing to bet that Turbine will raise Mob AC long before they lower MOB to-hit, like they said they would.
.

I hope your prediction is wrong, though its probably not. If they continue down the road of making this game a game of simply standing toe-to-toe with every mob and just using autoattack...

On a positive note, I did run stealthy repossesion last night on my new FvS. Not as bad as I expected. I killed the non-prophets in the first half then ran and grabbed the eye, then ran back out.

Ran again, with 3 friends on elite and did the same. So maybe there is still hope.

[redoubt]

Turbine, thank you for getting rid of the AC grind I was involved in by making it far less then worth my while to even bother. Thank you for clearing up my gear slots since I no longer worry about Armored Bracers or +5 Protection Items. Heck, my Icy Raiments was gathering dust before already.
Radiance Guard DT Vestments for the win .

Exactly what I mean when I say they are pushing a single style of play. Thank you for showing I am not completely allow in that assesment.

[redoubt]

Uh, kill the stupid kobolds. You can't kill kobolds on a level 16-20 character?

If you kill more than 6 kobold prophets in there you fail.

[redoubt]

I think the game has changed and high DPS with low/no damage mitigation builds are no longer the optimum.



I have over 400 solo kills in the Battleground with my 17 paladin. Using a twr shield and Angel Skin negates all grazes. I think I only used 2 CMW wands to do it (as there are plenty of shrines).

Named require a bit of tactics (run away! being the only option in some cases)

I can kill out there just fine. I was more commenting on what seems to be an erratic system. The Battleground was simply where I (and a few friends) noticed it first. I've since noticed it in the harbor as well, now that I'm looking for it.