Drop the grazing blow system

[Riggs]

Because I should not hit mobs on any 10. I should hit mobs when I exceed their AC and/or on a 20.

Mobs should not hit me on any 13. They should hit me when they exceed my AC and/or on a 20.

I disagree with the entire concept of the grazing system and feel it dumbs the game down too much. Many of the changes that Turbine is making lately push us all into a playstyle of high HP and high DPS and I am against the pigeon holing that is taking place currently. The grazing system is part of a series of events/changes which reduce options and push all players toward being cookie cutters. To this point, I've actually changed my new character from being a high-AC dex based FvS to being a STR based FvS with little emphasis on AC. What's the point in doing all that work to get high-AC if they mobs hit me on every 13???

Signed. Not that it matters what anything thinks at this point.

Turbine spent a ton of time making a system to fix the massively out of whack AC modifiers they added to the game (icy for one), and under the guide of 'we wont take something away from players because it might make them mad' argument - instead added an ENTIRE SYSTEM that effectively 'takes away' they ac anyway.

And guess what - people are even more mad than if they had of just nurfed some of the over the top AC modifiers, and lowered monster to hit like they should have.

[sephiroth1084]

imho i think they need to take a better look at the system and increase whats the roll needed to have a graziing hit do to the system i have stopped running my ac toons who get smacked around now and just went to plain barbs for the standing dr and hp and pray we have atlest a semi-compent healer.

and b4 ne1 says nething i tested it in genisis point and took slightly less dam on my barb with a 16 ac vs my ac build witha 75 ac.

That's ridiculous. Your AC guy should be getting hit with only grazes, while your no-AC barbarian should be getting torn to shreds by real hits. There is a tremendous difference between the two.

I've run my AC tank through all of the new quests (haven't beaten Tower yet), and excepting the crazy shadow things in the raid, which we have yet to conquer, I have taken much MUCH less damage than the low AC fighters, barbarians, rangers and rogues I've run with.

Are you simply comparing grazing hit damage, or are you comparing actual incoming damage? Are you ignoring the healing that the cleric stapled to your barbarian's ass is handing out?

[Riggs]

Anyone who thinks this system is that bad has never tested it.

Just ran bastion of power hard with a high ac monk, non lvl20 so no special DR.

He said the grazing hits barely did any dmg at all, and that was the only thing that hit him. Look at this life bar, it did like 1% dmg,.. He could self heal thru them fine almost with just the fist of light.

Everyone in the party died 2+ times, cept the monk as his AC made him nearly invulnerable.

And players wise.. For my low str sorc its pretty nice to be able to always contribute something, even when i need to conserve mana.

Fists of light is the only thing keeping my monk alive in the new content. Even with a higher ac, everything hits for a steady stream of low level damage, with bumps of big damage. And bearded devils can hit like a 70+ ac regularly it seems, so nearly any ac is useless on them inside quests.

You cant design a entire combat system that hammers players, and then say 'well this one class gets an enhancement that helps them out...and say it is balanced...

[Aspenor]

Grazing hits is balanced fine. Players that are complaining are the ones that don't actually have any business inside a quest on elite.

[redoubt]

Grazing hits is balanced fine. Players that are complaining are the ones that don't actually have any business inside a quest on elite.

19 solo
17 norm
15 hard
13 elite

Unless it changed again...

Also, I'm noticing wierd interactions. One on one my new FvS almost never gets hit at all, then when there are 5 or 6 of them I get a steady stream of grazing hits (even on hard.)

[Aspenor]

19 solo
17 norm
15 hard
13 elite

So the numbers are swayed even more in favor of the party with the live release, instead of what was in beta. This is not an argument against grazing hits.

So what's your problem with the system again? When there are 5 or 6 of what?

[redoubt]

So the numbers are swayed even more in favor of the party with the live release, instead of what was in beta. This is not an argument against grazing hits.

So what's your problem with the system again? When there are 5 or 6 of what?

Actually I qouted the numbers because you posted them incorrectly earlier in this thread. Then you said:

Grazing hits is balanced fine. Players that are complaining are the ones that don't actually have any business inside a quest on elite.

I found it odd, that you would assume I don't have a right to be in an elite quest when you don't know the numbers we are actually talking about, but, at the time I was trying to be civil and not directly point out your error as I generally consider you to be a benifit to the forum community.

Next, the numbers that are in the release notes are less favorable to the players than the ones you typed in.

My problem with the system is, as I stated before: I should hit when I roll a hit and the mobs should hit when they roll a hit. Add to this, my conspiracty theory that this was also tied to the DA system and that without the grazing hits the mobs would not stop high AC chacters as they could not hit them without this piece of code. Then again, I'm not sure why a high level ranger could not dance through "stealthy repossession" while laughing all the way at the puny little mobs chasing him (but apparantly turbine does not want that to be possible.)

Finally, I've seen the issue of one on one versus one on several both on my monk in the devil playground and on my FvS in the harbor and korthos. I don't know how or why, its just something I've noticed and since I don't know how to tell which are hits and which are grazing when I go back to the combat log, its hard for me to give detailed data. To be honest, I'm not sure it even happens all the time.

One instance was with the dogs in the lobster quest where you break the gaming tables. The humans would only occasionally hit me at all, but the dogs left a constant stream of -0 to -5ish the whole time I was fighting them. I believe it was 4 of them and one of me. Happened both on normal and on elite.

[Riggs]

Grazing hits is balanced fine. Players that are complaining are the ones that don't actually have any business inside a quest on elite.

Because yeah, balance = what worked for 16 levels suddenly stops working at 1-2 level higher.

Players that have been complaining have been running this game since day 1 usually, and have already been doing quests on elite on builds that worked for 2-3 years.

Some builds can handle it without an issue, many that were 'fine' 2 weeks ago suddenly are getting hammered.

Thats not balance, thats Turbine forcing anyone that didnt fit into their preset ideas about 'only these couple things will work any everyone else reroll'.

But hey instead of looting 1,000,000 shards now you can respec a feat for Turbine points....very 'lucky' eh?

[Riggs]

So the numbers are swayed even more in favor of the party with the live release, instead of what was in beta. This is not an argument against grazing hits.

So what's your problem with the system again? When there are 5 or 6 of what?

Like redoubt said - making a system where a 60-70 ac level 16-20 ranger is UNABLE to open a door in a level 2 quest on elite because a level 3 kobold can hit and damage a 'epic level character' only 40% of the time is completely bogus.

Turbine basically said "We put way too many ac mods into the game, and dont have the guts to nurf some, so instead were going to nurf the ENTIRE COMBAT SYSTEM and pretend that wont make anyone mad also".

Defend away tho.

[Borror0]

I found it odd, that you would assume I don't have a right to be in an elite quest

Why is that? For anyone that has a iota of DDO experience, it's an obvious truth that new Elite content is going to be atrociously hard (or expansive) for the first few weeks for all players and that AC builds are going to suffer a world of pain until they acquire the new gear to survive in there.

Look no further than Hard Shroud for an example of that theory in play.

Next, the numbers that are in the release notes are less favorable to the players than the ones you typed in.

Incorrect. The numbers in the release notes are more favorable to the players than the ones he typed.

If you didn't know, being grazed on a 10 is more damaging than being grazed on a 13 and, therefore, the results are more favorable to the players in the release notes.

My problem with the system is, as I stated before: I should hit when I roll a hit and the mobs should hit when they roll a hit.

Good, if that is your problem that is a fine conscren, but don't try to make it look like it's another issue.

If that is our problem, find an alternative to the dissatisfaction caused by missing too much because the developers already knew it was a deviation from PnP.

Add to this, my conspiracty theory that this was also tied to the DA system and that without the grazing hits the mobs would not stop high AC chacters as they could not hit them without this piece of code.

Let me rebuke the conspiracy quickly: You don't need to be hit to be affected by DA.

I don't know how to tell which are hits and which are grazing

UI settings. Use them. You can change the color if you want to.

[Borror0]

[...] and have already been doing quests on elite on builds that worked for 2-3 years.

Two or three years ago? That's a long time! If I remember right:

• Three years ago, splashing 1 paladin for wand usage and +2 AC from Aura of Good was a good idea.
• Two or three years ago, 10 base Con was a lot of Con and sensually a waste of creation point.
• Three years ago, Toughness was an horrible feat!
• Two or three years ago, rangers were a unpopular class that has trouble finding groups.
• Three years ago, S&B was arguably the best fighting style there was.
• Two years ago, spellcasters were horribly overpowered!
• Three years ago, spellcasters were horribly underpowered!
• Two or three years ago, WFs and halfling were a joke races that very few actually played.
• Three years ago, rogues were used mostly as good trapmonkeys.

Do I need to continue?

Like redoubt said - making a system where a 60-70 ac level 16-20 ranger is UNABLE to open a door in a level 2 quest on elite because a level 3 kobold can hit and damage a 'epic level character' only 40% of the time is completely bogus.

Oh no, a player is suffering issues outside of expected and normal gameplay! The atrocity!

[redoubt]

Incorrect. The numbers in the release notes are more favorable to the players than the ones he typed.

If you didn't know, being grazed on a 10 is more damaging than being grazed on a 13 and, therefore, the results are more favorable to the players in the release notes.

I'm actually lost now.

Players must roll a 10 on any level to "graze" a mob. If it was otherwise a hit it still hits. As far as I know this has always been set at 10. A friend of mine was running a WF sorc with 8 str and using a tower shield and hitting things with a club in Garisons missing pack on elite. That is a level 4 elite and she was level 3. Her point is that she should only hit on a 20, but since they added grazing she is swinging anyway because the to-hit score doesn't matter.

Wow... I may have just figured out what you are trying to say. Let me see if I have this. Because I can graze a mob on a 10 and it only grazes me on a 13, I have the advantage??? Thats total horse @@@@ and you know it. When was the last time a character you made had trouble landing hits? I don't consider myself uber, but I don't have trouble hitting. My characters do not gain from the grazing system because they are scoring hits anyway.

How can you not see that the fact that players have the coded ability to score grazing hits is nothing more than eyewash? We were not having trouble hitting as far as I knew! Who out there was? All this system does is give the mobs a better chance to do damage to players and nerf AC builds. All the while the devs dress it up as helping the players.

I'm not a pnp player. I've argued with people who say the game must be more like pnp. Me? I just want them to stop dorking up the game. I can see how the d20 is iconic and changing it would be tramatic, but if the bonuses have exceeded the capacity of a d20, then maybe we should talk about changing to a dxx that covers a more acceptable range. I'm not saying it would be perfect, but the grazing is pretty hacked in this one person's opinion.

[Lewcipher]

If one has low Armor Class, then he won't get grazed at all.

Sorry to quote this from earlier Borror0, but he stated Low HP, High AC characters.

[eonfreon]

Oh no, a player is suffering issues outside of expected and normal gameplay! The atrocity!

Well, it's certainly not an atrocity, but it does suck. And is my major issue with the new system. Which isn't to say others don't have even better reasons, because once again things have changed beyond anything.

Yes, I know, I'm sure it's not intended and will be fixed soon? But once again it's something that we asked constantly about in Beta, I wanted a simple answer then and I'd love a simple answer now, did they really intend for 0 dmg to interrupt or wa that just an unintended mistake which we;ll just deal with as always.

But since it does annoy me, I'll keep bug reporting and mentioning it until I at least hear that it's supposed to be this way. No big deal. But you will not convince me that I should be fine with this because it helps out with a larger issue. Especially when the issue is Turbine dealing with it's own mess, basically.

Yes, Grazing Hits is fine conceptually. Fine, I'll have to deal with the bugs of yet another system devised to deal with an error of game design that is shortsighted and not even as remotely balanced as some wish to paint it. yes, I'm very happy that someone mentioned that their Sorc can now "contribute" (in the most self-delusional way possible) some Grazing Hits dmg when they're saving Mana (thanks Sorc that 2 dmg 50% of the time's really helping out a whole bunch,keep plinging away, maybe you'll do that last 2 dmg needed to get the "kill shot" - thanks for the half a percent of a fraction of a bit of dmg).

AS far as the extra damage goes, I'm not getting much because I KNOW the value of AC even before this mess. So I have the most I need, a 35 AC. If I'm not careful I might go up as high as 48.

Yes I have a 60 AC mode, but so what? I learned long time ago: dps and to heck with AC. I could at least figure out ways to work in the S&B 55+ Standing AC mooks before, cause even if they screwed up really bad and had 300-350 hp by 16th lvl, they at least could deflect damage, not absorb it, but deflect it.

Grazing hits needs tweaking still. And the little things do matter. Especially when I'm inconvenienced so that Turbine can create a challenge for players who pointed out their own design flaws. So yes, until they get rid of the "flinch" and "interrupt" aspect of it I will say that it is a stupid addition to the game. Yep, not even worried about the extra damage since the few times I need AC and DR I can get it and I know that Grazing Hits only really pile up when you allow yourself to be surrounded and overwhelmed (which seems about right to me).

But for the love of everything Unholy, let me open a freaking door or pull a switch if I take 1 or 2 points of GRAZING dmg!!!

[Borror0]

Wow... I may have just figured out what you are trying to say. Let me see if I have this. Because I can graze a mob on a 10 and it only grazes me on a 13, I have the advantage???

No, that is not what I meant.

What I said is "If you didn't know, being grazed on a 10 is more damaging than being grazed on a 13 and, therefore, the results are more favorable to the players in the release notes." Following basic English rules, "being grazed" refers to the action (to graze) being inflicted upon a target. In this case, the target being players. Keeping that in mind, I mentioned two numbers: 10 and 13. For anyone following the conversation, or simply looking at the context, the first one was referring to the number Aspenor thought was correct one (10) and the second one the number that is found in the release notes (13).

Thus, your affirmation that "Next, the numbers that are in the release notes are less favorable to the players than the ones [Aspenor] typed in." is false because it is more favorable to the players to be grazed on 13+ than it would have been to be grazed on a 10+ as the player takes more damage if he can be gazed on a 10+ than if he can be grazed on a 13+.

To be sure, let me restate it again: the numbers refer to which roll Elite mobs have to roll to graze us.

How can you not see that the fact that players have the coded ability to score grazing hits is nothing more than eyewash? We were not having trouble hitting as far as I knew! Who out there was? All this system does is give the mobs a better chance to do damage to players and nerf AC builds. All the while the devs dress it up as helping the players.

An interesting quote in that paragraph is "We were not having trouble hitting as far as I knew!" because it's true. We don't.

Considering that fact, why did the developers presented grazing hits as something that would help the player.

Just like you, my melee characters no problem hitting! At high level, it's not much of a problem I don't buy this "As noted in the Lammania release notes, there is a “grazing hits” system going in as part of the combat changes made to address common issues raised by new players while simultaneously keeping the veteran players appropriately challenged. The Grazing Hits rule is a new system that is intended to reduce dissatisfaction at lower levels caused by large percentages of missed attacks, a problem frequently mentioned by new players." nonsense! My characters have absolutely no problem hitting since Korthos. As a matter of fact, Korthos lowered the to-hit so low that I don't think even a TWF sorcerer would miss.

In the Korthos experience, monster AC’s were artificially lowered to address this problem, but we found that this simply moved the problem to later on in the harbor and marketplace dungeons.

So, it was to help the low level characters and that their first attempt (lowering AC) only pushed the complaint until later.

Fine. Still, it affects end game. I wonder why they don't realize that?

"Why are you doing this?"
Expected effects of this include:
• Higher AC monsters are able to be created (to allow high to-hit characters like a Kensai shine) while avoiding many of the "Skeleton Knights in the Catacombs" or "Drow Blackguard in Tempest's Spine" problems

It's not to help us but to provide us with a more deeper gameplay experience.

It seems as if Eladrin thinks that to-hit should matter, and be used as a way to differentiate builds instead of letting us all hit on a 2. That is, Eladrin wants to consider one more factor when playing, to-hit. However, he seems to think that players dislike high AC character for the same reason low level players dislike missing too much.

Ok, I can buy that.

So, what about you? Do their reasoning make more sense now?

I just want them to stop dorking up the game.

Support that claim.

Yes, Grazing Hits is fine conceptually.

And, eon, that is my only point.

There are flaws in its implementation, but those can be corrected by the game designers. However, I don't agree we should "drop it". If there are bugs, pester Turbine to death so they fix it. Take 404error hostage if you want. If there are some tweaks that could make you cope with the change better, push for them like I tried to do in beta. But, saying to "drop it" is not something I'll agree with, however.

AS far as the extra damage goes, I'm not getting much because I KNOW the value of AC even before this mess.

As I mentioned earlier, I believe a change of this kind was required before making AC matter.

But for the love of everything Unholy, let me open a freaking door or pull a switch if I take 1 or 2 points of GRAZING dmg!!!

I'm still wondering why there is an activation time to levers and doors, or why being hits for small amounts should interrupt us.

I could maybe see it for a huge, damaging critical hit but...

Sorry to quote this from earlier Borror0, but he stated Low HP, High AC characters.

Yeah, I misread there.

[KuRRuPT]

Ok first off let me start out by saying they took it away once before which was before your time should I say... they decided to bring it back which in my eyes is a good thing because in the high content you better be glad you got it because of how hard they are to kill with out using a G S weapon from the shroud on top of that because nothing else out there works spells on the mobs out there don't even work which is the way I like it the more harder the mobs the more fun I have....I say scale all mobs up higher then that make it harder for us to kill them I say....

[KuRRuPT]

Signed. Not that it matters what anything thinks at this point.

Turbine spent a ton of time making a system to fix the massively out of whack AC modifiers they added to the game (icy for one), and under the guide of 'we wont take something away from players because it might make them mad' argument - instead added an ENTIRE SYSTEM that effectively 'takes away' they ac anyway.

And guess what - people are even more mad than if they had of just nurfed some of the over the top AC modifiers, and lowered monster to hit like they should have.

I kinda like the ac thing because it don't mean nothing any more lol all this fuse over I have 60+ ac and die before a 36+ ac lol one of the reason I never splashed a toon after that high ac only went after dps and can still stand by a 60+ ac ALIVE with 36+ ac

[sephiroth1084]

Wow... I may have just figured out what you are trying to say. Let me see if I have this. Because I can graze a mob on a 10 and it only grazes me on a 13, I have the advantage??? Thats total horse @@@@ and you know it. When was the last time a character you made had trouble landing hits? I don't consider myself uber, but I don't have trouble hitting. My characters do not gain from the grazing system because they are scoring hits anyway.

How can you not see that the fact that players have the coded ability to score grazing hits is nothing more than eyewash? We were not having trouble hitting as far as I knew! Who out there was?

Have you ever run hard or elite content a level or two above your own in the level 1-14 range? Everyone but the most twinked out characters will have a little trouble hitting some monsters. Other monsters can be almost impossible to touch: Stormcleave elite at level 7? Hitting those fire giants is close to impossible. Ever die in the Shroud and wanna jump back into the fight against Harry? Some characters don't hit too well at that point with no buffs and a death penalty. Ever try meleeing stuff in the Vale and beyond with your caster? I do so with a Dreamspitter frequently--yeah, I could hit fairly well before, but now even many of my misses are doing something productive.

I'm not a pnp player. I've argued with people who say the game must be more like pnp. Me? I just want them to stop dorking up the game. I can see how the d20 is iconic and changing it would be tramatic, but if the bonuses have exceeded the capacity of a d20, then maybe we should talk about changing to a dxx that covers a more acceptable range. I'm not saying it would be perfect, but the grazing is pretty hacked in this one person's opinion.

That's much more than a small change. For one, the system works at lower levels and may start working for non-uber characters as monsters get adjusted a bit more. The d20 is more than just iconic, it's how the whole system is designed.

[KuRRuPT]

/not signed

[Missing_Minds]

Grazing hits is balanced fine. Players that are complaining are the ones that don't actually have any business inside a quest on elite.

The damage, baring the scaling system messup, may be fine. However, the flinching reaction is not fine. That is the only part of grazing that is messed up in my opinion. Flinching from zero damage? No, that just isn't right.