The Hammer -- DPS Kensai Monk

[Thanimal]

I am also working an 18ftr/monk2.

Better DPS, but no UMD. Probably not as well-rounded. Also, mine had to be Halfling while yours can choose the most suitable race. Rather than posting the whole build for comparison, here's a link, just in case you are curious.

I am curious, thanks. And I'm impressed you posted that in January! Holy foresight, Batman!

I don't think the linked build has better DPS, though. The only aspect I can find where the linked build has more DPS is on sneak attack damage (8 Halfling vs. 6.5 Rogue). It appears to me the Hammer has (in order of significance) more STR damage (from STR build vs. Finesse build), more PA damage (from WF PA enh), and more base damage (from more Monk levels).

Did I misunderstand?

[geoffhanna]

I am curious, thanks. And I'm impressed you posted that in January! Holy foresight, Batman!

I don't think the linked build has better DPS, though. The only aspect I can find where the linked build has more DPS is on sneak attack damage (8 Halfling vs. 6.5 Rogue). It appears to me the Hammer has (in order of significance) more STR damage (from STR build vs. Finesse build), more PA damage (from WF PA enh), and more base damage (from more Monk levels).

Did I misunderstand?

More likely I mis-mathed. I have a better crit range I think. And more power surges. And the Kensai III bonuses to damage and crit damage. OTOH, my STR is 14 vs. yours at 16, and I don't have the WF PA.

My guild is texting me to stop typing and start playing, and I am not the DPS math guru anyway. I think we are close, and I might actually lead as enemy AC increases. But I could be way off. Even if I am correct - and again, I probably am not - your character brings more to the table. Mine is really only DPS.

[Humperdink]

Thanks for the detailed information. Just one comment:



At least according to the calculations I've seen so far, the rings change unarmed DPS numbers rather dramatically. The whole reason I posted The Hammer is that it appears it may be one of the top DPS builds possible against 100% fortification. Of course, more actual game experience with the rings and the new content is needed. (And not by me -- I don't have the focus to even get to end-game, much less grind it. Always rather make a new build!)

No problem I thought it might be interesting to share numbers. And you may be right. I'm kind of eyeballing the numbers by feel, how fast things die compared to my barbarian heavy pick user. I don't have any of the rings. On a realistic basis we're probably talking what takes 30 seconds to kill on the barb takes 45 seconds on the fighter monk. A kensai III Heavy pick user should be in the same ballpark as the barb according to other DPS calcs around the forum. Like I said he's not feat or equipment optimized (well, he is with all attack bonus and damage feats) at all right now and when weighted on handwraps is fixed that will make a big difference also as a similar build will easily be able to hit Stunning Blow DCs of 40 or higher.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

No problem I thought it might be interesting to share numbers. And you may be right. I'm kind of eyeballing the numbers by feel, how fast things die compared to my barbarian heavy pick user. I don't have any of the rings. On a realistic basis we're probably talking what takes 30 seconds to kill on the barb takes 45 seconds on the fighter monk. A kensai III Heavy pick user should be in the same ballpark as the barb according to other DPS calcs around the forum. Like I said he's not feat or equipment optimized (well, he is with all attack bonus and damage feats) at all right now and when weighted on handwraps is fixed that will make a big difference also as a similar build will easily be able to hit Stunning Blow DCs of 40 or higher.

Take note that Thaimal is counting with 2* raid rings, with holy burst and <element> burst. I doubt that you have 2 of those.

Without these rings, Unarmed is in the mud as it has always been, but with them unarmed is awesome.

[Thanimal]

Did anybody ever build this or something like it? Are the rings living up to expectations?

[Dark-Star]

I have two guildies building my Beotch Slapper version. Will let you know on rings soon.

[Shade]

Did anybody ever build this or something like it? Are the rings living up to expectations?

Don't think any monks have actualy made any rings, since no one lets them join the raid as people only look for real dps classes.

heh just kidding, I actually took one on elite.. He said something about seeing allot of zero's due to the DR he couldn't get thru.

So rings or not.. Lack of transmuting handwraps = Monks and DPS do not belong in the same sentence.

Perhaps once the handwraps are in the game this could change. Until then.. umm... fail.

[Thanimal]

Thanks for the info.

So rings or not.. Lack of transmuting handwraps = Monks and DPS do not belong in the same sentence.

They still don't have those in the game!? Sheesh. That's been promised more times than Healthcare Reform.

It's a stretch to call this build a Monk, though -- less than 1/3 of its levels are Monk. (Ok, I called it a Monk in the thread title -- my bad!) A more accurate name would be Unarmed Kensai -- and as such has way more STR than most Monks to help overcome DR. But, nevertheless, I must agree that unarmed will likely remain suboptimal until the promised transmuting handwraps become real!!! Grrr.

[Thanimal]

I have two guildies building my Beotch Slapper version. Will let you know on rings soon.

Could you do me a favor and have them try to time how many attacks they get when fully boosted (Haste Boost IV + Haste + Wind Stance I)? Some sorta-related data-gathering and math suggest is might be Ridiculously Fast(TM), but that would need to be confirmed in-game.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Could you do me a favor and have them try to time how many attacks they get when fully boosted (Haste Boost IV + Haste + Wind Stance I)? Some sorta-related data-gathering and math suggest is might be Ridiculously Fast(TM), but that would need to be confirmed in-game.

It is rediculously fast, I'm currently playing my Monkster and it's just amazing. At level 16, so haven't got any rings yet, but I've tested em on my Monster vs undead, and it works great.

[Thanimal]

It is rediculously fast, I'm currently playing my Monkster and it's just amazing. At level 16, so haven't got any rings yet, but I've tested em on my Monster vs undead, and it works great.

Well this is getting VERY interesting. cforce's fully updated attack speed index is nearing completion, and a preliminary version suggests this build now has phenomenal DPS -- seems to be the top of any proposed build vs. 100% Fort with no DR, and does surprisingly well under other conditions as well.

Even though I will never play nor equip this build optimally, I think I'm going to start one after I buy my 32 points builds -- I may wait a week and see if they go on sale, though.

[Thanimal]

It is rediculously fast, I'm currently playing my Monkster and it's just amazing. At level 16, so haven't got any rings yet, but I've tested em on my Monster vs undead, and it works great.

I can't post on that other forum, so I'll have to ask you here: Why did you put points in CHA? Are you missing some threshold of Intim or UMD otherwise? Monkster is more tank-oriented than The Hammer, so Intim is much more important to it, but it still seems tough to justify points in CHA given the extreme stat needs of the build in general.

?

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I can't post on that other forum, so I'll have to ask you here: Why did you put points in CHA? Are you missing some threshold of Intim or UMD otherwise? Monkster is more tank-oriented than The Hammer, so Intim is much more important to it, but it still seems tough to justify points in CHA given the extreme stat needs of the build in general.

?

Being able to reach 70 intimidate without walk of the sun is essensial for any Intimidate build. As that is 70 is the Horroth DC on elite, and you can't really step a walk of the sun if you're shield blocking etc.

Those 4 points also helps a lot on the way to the gear, meaning that I don't need everything to do horroth normal / hard / fireshield scroll etc.

The points would've been put in str otherwise, and imo, for this build 2 intimidate, 2 umd > 1 dmg, 1 to hit.

[Thanimal]

Thanks! That makes total sense (as I expected it would).

I'm treating Intimidate more as a "Why not?" than a build focus, so my priority is different. I'll not reach 70 and not sweat it.

[Thanimal]

Very minor note while I'm studying Monkster for ideas:

You should probably call out that a +2 DEX Tome is required by level 9 to qualify for iTWF. You explicitly listed another tome as required, and indicate that others are just nice-to-have.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Very minor note while I'm studying Monkster for ideas:

You should probably call out that a +2 DEX Tome is required by level 9 to qualify for iTWF. You explicitly listed another tome as required, and indicate that others are just nice-to-have.

Great, good point.

[Dark-Star]

The Monkster looks an aweful lot like the Slapper . You're a fellow Scandanavian so we'll let you slide.

[Thanimal]

The Monkster looks an aweful lot like the Slapper . You're a fellow Scandanavian so we'll let you slide.

Well, in all honesty there isn't THAT much different you can really do here. 12/6/2 or 12/7/1? Barely matters. Pure DPS or just mostly-DPS? Little different feel, but still gonna be about the same feats and similar stats. Full Intimidate or just a side-line? Only a few points different in the end.

Much like the 12 Fighter/6 Ranger/2 Monk combo, I feel this Kensai II/Monk/Rogue-splash is going to spawn lots of builds that are all sorta similar. Maybe even a little MORE similar actually, since Kensai is so obviously the PrE of choice.

It's almost like Turbine designed this build for us, actually

Still, I'm starting to really look forward to playing this. I'm starting to think that even with subpar equipment and way-subpar twitch skills it's going to do pretty well.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

The Monkster looks an aweful lot like the Slapper . You're a fellow Scandanavian so we'll let you slide.

Yeh, it does indeed. I had been thinking about posting such a build ever since Tod, but I couldn't be arsed until I saw your build, that's when I decided to make a WF one and have a look at what I could accomplish.

The level split is obvious, and I think I suggested it previously in this thread, some months ago. Either way, I like your Slapper build, though I prefer it as WF, as the Slapper would really lack item slots. You couldn't really go icy. (You'd lose 4 insight with Icy anyways)

[Dark-Star]

I agree with you on WF and the slots; the reason the Slapper is Human is that the person I built it for doesn't care to play WF. Depending on what you can augment on the new epic gear, slots may be less of an issue, but that remains to be seen.

With the new changes to monks, a pure monk is going to be pretty viable DPS as well, they'll just bring a little different set of tools than the 12/7/1.