I called it - DA, Scaling bad for pugs

[Lorien_the_First_One]

"■Several quests have been revisited to help make them more appropriate to the size and level of the party. Be sure to visit the quests and adventure area sections of these release notes to see the changes and improvements!"

The above statement is cut directly from the release notes.

I could be wrong but it leads me to believe only a few have been scaled?

All quests except raids are scaled on normal and hard

[Phax]

/signed. I ran a bastion on hard and we grabbed two pug melee. They did not help much in the quest which made it more difficult so our next quest was a quick sin of attrition and we decided to just 4 man in rather then grab pugs and with the scaling it was more easy on the cleric. Dungeon scaling needs to be fixed because it should not discourage pugging.

I have not read through this whole thread, but I want to make sure something is understood. There is currently a bug in the dungeon scaling system that is making dungeons harder then they should be with large parties. It will be fixed, and hopefully this will make your experience a thing of the past.

[ariel7]

I have not read through this whole thread, but I want to make sure something is understood. There is currently a bug in the dungeon scaling system that is making dungeons harder then they should be with large parties. It will be fixed, and hopefully this will make your experience a thing of the past.

That should make it easier for pugs to find groups when it is fixed. Thanks.

No no i meant character names not guild names.

As for the lag I've seen a noticable reduction in lag despite some people saying its worse now then ever, I have had less problems. Ran the shroud with some guildies the other night on Khyber and other then some very small amounts of spot lag in part 4 it was virtually non-existant. On Cannith though Ive been seeing multiple instances in the market place and running smooth as can be. So far my experience has been fairly good even the auction house prices are mostly reasonable.

I meant character names and guild names both. I didn't mention any specific ones bc of the forum rules.

If you power gaming guildies hate PUG's so much then why is like every other thread from you complaining about the new DS?, that the need to fill out your party is less imperative now you should rejoice. Right?

I can't speak for everyone but I look at it this way. Everyone was new once. The new players who don't get to run many groups will think we are much "smaller" than we are. If 75% of the groups running quests are guild/friend only and there is never an LFM up, a new player gets a distorted idea of how active our game is. I really enjoy helping new players, and love helping people complete content they'd usually not get to.

My cleric can solo most content (not a brag) and since my cleric does all my greensteel blank crafting, if I need another stone from devils, I can just solo it and be done with it. I can "/g Anyone want in on some Running with the Devils?" and /tell Devils? and have all the help I need to make it fast and fun, with jokes all along the way. OK lets look at a guy in a small guild, or a large guild that rarely raids and isn't as end-game focused as others. That doesn't mean that they will never get interested in more raiding, or that they will never want to focus on end-game. That person might not want to necessarily run 10 shrouds a week. But I really enjoy making sure that when they WANT to, they get some help getting it done. I'm not sure there are a lot of times a full party is needed...BEFORE dungeon scaling. I think a 5-man Titan, before they broke it, was as many people as you could have before people start getting in the way. Reaver, Hound were both short-runnable. And it isn't ONLY those newer players that get helped by a pug every now and then. Last night an officer in power-gaming guild was having a terrible time getting Sins of Attrition done...had to pug it out bc the guild isn't running the content until level 20.

As long as there are MMOs there are going to be power gamers and casual players both. I especially don't want newer players to come to this game that I really enjoy and think its boring, lame and "dead" because there aren't amny groups to get in.

[maddmatt70]

I have not read through this whole thread, but I want to make sure something is understood. There is currently a bug in the dungeon scaling system that is making dungeons harder then they should be with large parties. It will be fixed, and hopefully this will make your experience a thing of the past.

Thanks Phax for the response. I am sure the devs and QA are working hard to fix this. I enjoy grabbing pugs alot of the time to fill a spot or two or three. It is great to meet new people out there. I am looking forward to your patch/fix on this.

[Borror0]

I have not read through this whole thread, but I want to make sure something is understood. There is currently a bug in the dungeon scaling system that is making dungeons harder then they should be with large parties. It will be fixed, and hopefully this will make your experience a thing of the past.

Good to hear that. Thanks for the update.

However, I want to add something. While that will address the complaint that full groups are harder than smaller groups, it probably won't address the complaint that PUGs are a thing of the past as it is not encouraged or rewarded enough. Starting or joining a PUG represent a certain risk, and will often cost you time because other players will often cause delays.

Have you considered XP bonuses to encourage bigger groups, even if only to make up for the inefficiencies that joining a group entails?

[BlackSteel]

i like the scaling feature in certain circumstances, mostly in the lowbie range, sub lvl 10.

But alot of the devil battleground content is trivialized by party scaling. My barbarian can solo thru the wilderness area w/o a problem. Potting away more damage from frenzy than from monster damage. But red names that otherwise would have taken no potions to kill solo, now require 3-10 silver flame pots to kill.

I'm starting to reconsider whether I even want to take more than 2 people into the new quests.

[maddmatt70]

i like the scaling feature in certain circumstances, mostly in the lowbie range, sub lvl 10.

But alot of the devil battleground content is trivialized by party scaling. My barbarian can solo thru the wilderness area w/o a problem. Potting away more damage from frenzy than from monster damage. But red names that otherwise would have taken no potions to kill solo, now require 3-10 silver flame pots to kill.

I'm starting to reconsider whether I even want to take more than 2 people into the new quests.

Steel having people in a quest is fun. I am willing to drink a few pots on my clerics or bards if need be. I like a challenge as well. Having a full party makes a bigger challenge so why not.

[Lifespawn]

random pugs now also usually lower the xp which is scarce enough get an unlucky pugger in the group with low hp's and there goes the 10% bonus.

[PopeDX]

Enemy casters now do way too much damage when you have a 6-person group...I'm guessing that's what the fix is. I'm hoping it is, at least. A minotaur shaman just wiped my whole party with one fireball on Depths of Doom on normal.

[BlackSteel]

Steel having people in a quest is fun. I am willing to drink a few pots on my clerics or bards if need be. I like a challenge as well. Having a full party makes a bigger challenge so why not.

I do to, I'd much rather run the new content with a full group than go in solo or with 2 or 3. I just feel that there should be a certain point in the content where dungeon scaling stops. Maybe it could be reevaluated again if we ever reach epic levels, and the level progression changes again, (making a larger dead zone of leveling)

[Phidius]

...Dungeon scaling needs to be fixed because it should not discourage pugging.

Agreed.

I have not read through this whole thread, but I want to make sure something is understood. There is currently a bug in the dungeon scaling system that is making dungeons harder then they should be with large parties. It will be fixed, and hopefully this will make your experience a thing of the past.

That's great - instead of making it unreasonably harder when you let an unknown person join, you're just going to make it reasonably harder.

Still doesn't help PUGs, though. I prefered to avoid PUGs before the mod - now I don't even think about leading or joining a group unless it's with known friends.

So, if you want to make MY experience a thing of the past, remove Dungeon Scaling, please.

[deadmanet]

As I haven't really had a chance to get into full groups(playtime erratic) I can't speak for that end of the spectrum. But from the opposite side I can.

Don't know if its just the FvS is just that powerful, or if they really scale it down for smaller groups. Was running Stealthy Repo at lvl 2. Granted yes, I remember the quest not really being that hard to just "zerg" thru with a decent ac. But I remember having to at least kill a few things/cc near the lvrs.(maybe Im just not uber enough to not have too)

But I ran all the way to the end, aggroing everything, including a red name, pulled every switch w/o being touched, had the dungeon alert all the way red by the time I got to the gem. Then, and only then, when I had all the slow debuffs, did I have any issues at all. Even then, I still only had to smack a few kobolds around to clear a small path to the gem. Did/needed very minimul healing btw.

I for one like the DA, maybe just needs tweaked a bit, as well as the scaling. I'm a decent player, can usually hold my own when I need too. But that just seemed way too easy. Add to that all the other quest in the harbor area(soloed lvl 3s at 2) It just seems to me that all the other posts I am seeing about the scaling and pugs making the quest that much harder, are probably spot on.

Just an observation from a longtime DDOer :P

[Vormaerin]

You save pugs by being in them, not by whining that you should be rewarded for taking along people you think are incompetent. You do realize that if these 'incompetents' don't merit being in your group, they can just form their own small group and get the full benefits of scaling? They can still play the game now, unlike before.

DDO has very nearly strangled to death because it is so group centric. The fact that you couldn't just play DDO without tortuously assembling 6 people drove off a LOT of players. I personally know of twelve subscriptions (and a number of f2p accounts) that were picked up primarily because that was addressed. Three to four is the normal sized group. Six takes actual effort in most cases. LotRO's started making a lot of 3 man instances because of how much demand there is for them compared to 6 man ones.

DDO already goes a long ways towards encouraging grouping: Unlike most games, you don't get more reward for going short. The only thing you get is freedom from someone you apparently don't want to play with anyway. That's a bad thing?

[krud]

You save pugs by being in them, not by whining that you should be rewarded for taking along people you think are incompetent. You do realize that if these 'incompetents' don't merit being in your group, they can just form their own small group and get the full benefits of scaling? They can still play the game now, unlike before.

DDO has very nearly strangled to death because it is so group centric. The fact that you couldn't just play DDO without tortuously assembling 6 people drove off a LOT of players. I personally know of twelve subscriptions (and a number of f2p accounts) that were picked up primarily because that was addressed. Three to four is the normal sized group. Six takes actual effort in most cases. LotRO's started making a lot of 3 man instances because of how much demand there is for them compared to 6 man ones.

DDO already goes a long ways towards encouraging grouping: Unlike most games, you don't get more reward for going short. The only thing you get is freedom from someone you apparently don't want to play with anyway. That's a bad thing?

/so freakin true

That's what happens when all you care about is the reward at the end. Maybe THAT is what is the death of pugs - the fear of not getting your reward, and not those other two factors. I find joining a trainwreck in the making is way more enjoyable than mindlessly droning along like a washed up hooker turning a trick for my n20th shroud/reaver/hound run.

[Borror0]

DDO has very nearly strangled to death because it is so group centric. The fact that you couldn't just play DDO without tortuously assembling 6 people drove off a LOT of players.

QFT

DDO already goes a long ways towards encouraging grouping

Actually, that is not true at all. In LOTRO, for example, the loot and XP one can obtain from group-only quests (that is, quests too hard for one person to have a remote chance of completing alone) is many times better than what can be gained from solo-friendly quests. However, no one does the quests because starting a group is inherently inefficient: you have to wait for others, you take more risks, etc.

What you end up with is players who like to group not finding a group until end game or not even being interested to start a group. A lot of that has to do with leveling and grouping not being natural partners, but that is not the whole truth to it. There is also the problem that starting a group involve a lot of busywork, downtimes and an higher risk than solo, and thus the reward has to be greater to compensate.

If you want groups to get started, you have to add a fitting reward.

That's what happens when all you care about is the reward at the end. Maybe THAT is what is the death of pugs - the fear of not getting your reward, and not those other two factors. I find joining a trainwreck in the making is way more enjoyable than mindlessly droning along like a washed up hooker turning a trick for my n20th shroud/reaver/hound run.

Humans are goal-driven creatures. Even in a game where the purpose is simply to have fun and relax, they will still look for pattern and ways to optimize their performance. That is why rewards have to be balanced. While players may think that "The journey is a reward", and it's true, they don't act like it.

By the way, that is why a famous MMO designers has once agreed that "'The journey is the reward' is a ****ing lie. (People would rather have the princess)."

[Lifeblood]

some of the best groups I have been in are pugs. Everyone has to learn sometime and the Vets should take the lead and show the casual and/or new players a bit of understanding now and again...broken scaling or not. Think of it as working towards a boyscout/girlscout badge

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I have not read through this whole thread, but I want to make sure something is understood. There is currently a bug in the dungeon scaling system that is making dungeons harder then they should be with large parties. It will be fixed, and hopefully this will make your experience a thing of the past.

Ah!
And here I thought I was just running with bad parties.

Actually, I had been blaming wipes on poor agro management. People not being careful how many monsters they pull into a fight.

With smaller groups we were all being more careful. Fought closer together and didn't have as many people off in multiple directions.

DA: I realised after my first response that even though it was in the title, most people hadn't really been talking about it here.
I've seen a lot more green recently. But IMO it was working just like it should.
Haven't seen yellow yet.
I did see green just for spawing a large mob at no fault of the players though. And that seems wrong to me, but as far as I can tell we get nothing bad happening to us on green, so it's no big deal.

Definately noticing a lack of LFMs for new content though.
And the ones I do see have a bunch of people asking for guides.
Seems guild or no guild many adventures are not very adventurous IMO.

[Sweyn]

I said it before that the new features of the game, dungeon alerts and scaling, and also free to play, were going to be the death of the unguilded player, and make finding an LFM even more difficult for not-so-well-known players. A guildy of mine were debating whether or not to pug Coal tonight. Now, I'm USUALLY thinking about it like this:

If my guildies/friends need anything, I'll do whatever I can to help - not changed
If there are spaces, I don't care about carrying less experienced people through a quest, and in a weird way, get a lot more enjoyment in being able to provide that help. As long as they don't do things they are asked not to do, let's hook them up I say. - changed.

I don't get to play as often as I'd like. My time will become increasingly limited in this regard. It would have been much easier to have just duoed the quest, but now (9/4/9), if you take on a random person you have to ask are they likely to run the wrong way and make dungeon alerts a bigger issue? Is it worth it making the mission harder for likely not even a little added reward? This time next week, more questions will arise from potentially ftp players.

I like helping out, flagging people. Not a lot of people due and I am hoping that I'm wrong in my prediction that da and scaling will make DDO a less hospitable place to game for new players.

At this point, I think I'll pug raids, a spot or two, but increasingly just not be willing to take someone else through a quest that I don't know. I don't like that, and I don't tihnk its good for the game long term either. I know that guilds were massively working on completing new content and learning new content together, but there was at LEAST a 50% drop in LFMs on Thelanis. I was off and on several hours today and it was the exception that there was even a slider bar to scroll up/down and that isn't the norm especially with people flooding back to see new content.

Good point, my ranger can solo the new explorer area and all the named no problem. (Around a 60-65 ac is all you need) But once 4 ppl were in the group, it was like i have a 30 ac, i was getting hit for so much. It is easier to solo rather to group in some cases.

[Kistilan]

This just in!

Over 25% of your PuG-Capable players are on Cannith!

Not that this has anything to do with DA being the evil bane of a full party, but now you know why the PuG LFMs are lacking. There are about 10-25 LFMs up on Cannith and 75% of them are for levels 1-7. Nice, eh?

[parvo]

All quests except raids are scaled on normal and hard

And from what I've seen elite, at least while solo.