Good sword and board builds?

[soubal]

because they have to stop and heal a lot less...

If they don't have a healer along, those two "offensive" characters could be in a lot of trouble.

Though of course, everyone carries a backpack full of pots to just quaff down. Who cares, it's only money, and anyone with half a dozen capped characters has more than enough of that to farm down.

...which further breaks the game balance. There's too much money around, inflation is ridiculous (as someone who played at launch and has just recently come back, prices are just insane). Maybe pushing up the repair costs on those elite items would help with that? suck some money out of the top end of town?

I'd love for shields to actually be relevant. Step 1 is to make it so that the AC that wearing fullplate and a shield gives is significantly better than anything a TWF/THF build is capable of (ie: stop the 'monk splash' AC). Step 2 is to 'stabilise' that AC range. Attack rolls come down to a d20. That means there should really be no more than 20 points of difference between 'unmissable' and 'unhittable'. Anything beyond that is wasted. Since AC (and correspondingly, monster attack bonuses) have crept up so significantly, the difference that a d20 roll can make is significantly reduced.


Seriously.. +6 items? +4 tomes? combine that with the monk splash AC bonus, and you've got 10AC there, completely naked and before any feats/etc.. That's more than you get from a +5 full plate. If the powers that be don't see that as broken, then I don't know what hope DDO really has. Maybe they should have had a look at some of those sort of problems before re-inventing the business model. Fix the product, and sales will flow

[Thrudh]

...and a rogue with a a DPS character with Intimidate will finish even faster.

It's your example that is disingenuous. Angelus_dead was clearly covering all classes, and thus his point is true: defensive specced characters are a waste of time unless you need the additional survivability to complete the quest as they have less DPS and therefore lengthen completion time.

You added the qualifier, "unless you need the additional survivability to complete the quest"... A_D did not. Sure, if no defense is needed, then two offensive characters are the way to go...

If however, if the mobs do some serious damage, even to offense characters who kill fast, but little damage to defensive characters... matching the two types can work very well...

Put a rogue and a DPS with Intimidate together in a situation like that, and they will take a lot of damage, required healing, may even die...

Put a rogue and a defensive Intimitank together in a situation like that, and the rogue can do all the DPS he wants and neither player will get hurt much...

Obviously, depends on the quest... Personally, I'd like to see A_D's fortification ideas be implemented... a way to make defensive players more viable... If running around with a 10 AC means you get critted often by a pit fiend, having max DPS won't necessarily be the best choice (because DPS is ZERO if you're dead)

[Thrudh]

That demonstrates why an Intimitank also needs to be able to play as DPS.

And I definitely agree with that... All intimitank builds should have Power Attack and a big axe ready to use when defense is not needed...

[Borror0]

You added the qualifier, "unless you need the additional survivability to complete the quest"... A_D did not.

Other than the part where he said that both groups could complete the quest?

If however, if the mobs do some serious damage, even to offense characters who kill fast, but little damage to defensive characters... matching the two types can work very well...

You're missing the point. If a tank and a DPS build consume equal resources, the DPS character will be preferred because it takes a shorter duration. This is why we can say that DPS is inherently overpowered: it leads to more XP and loot per unit of time. As a result, players will try to squeeze as much DPS as they can in their build.

This is why designers need to force players into survivability, and why tanks are NBS in DDO.

[RTN]

You're missing the point. If a tank and a DPS build consume equal resources, the DPS character will be preferred because it takes a shorter duration.

No, you're missing his point. In a quest with high mob DPS, he is saying that a defensive tank will consume less resources.

OP, Borror0 has long been on record as saying S&B isn't viable. He says this because he wants it to be better. In all honesty, it should be better. However, S&B is perfectly viable for most quests as a defensive intimitank.

If you're just doing it for flavor without building it correctly, then you'll be low in DPS and not have much defensive function. Have a defensive mode with appropriate gear and a greataxe for decent DPS. You will be viable, although not the ultimate DPS. There are plenty of PUGs and guilds out there looking for good defensive intimitanks.

[Borror0]

No, you're missing his point. In a quest with high mob DPS, he is saying that a defensive tank will consume less resources.

Ya, and I pointed out that was meaningless and useless unless the higher damage input prevents quest completion. Well, Angelus_dead did in his first post, actually.

OP, Borror0 has long been on record as saying S&B isn't viable. He says this because he wants it to be better. In all honesty, it should be better. However, S&B is perfectly viable for most quests as a defensive intimitank.

I didn't even say it was not viable in this thread, so I don't know why you're saying this.

I said that it depends on his definition of viable, but that it's certainly not optimal. Is there anything wrong or biased in that?

[William_the_Bat]

I've been soloing the battleground on my 17 S&B pally (defender of sibrys, but no intimidate, it's an old character, and yes, I know, "reroll noob")

Great fun.

57 AC in defensive stance with self buffs and could get higher if I ever get a chattering ring or a +3 int tome or something with an insight bonus (greensteel? nah, holy sword! 100% less shroud grinding required!)

Obviously, in elite quests, I'm taking a lot more damage, as 57 is not all that for elite AC.

But I still find ways to make myself as useful as possible, such as using the paladin's burst DPS to destroy enemy casters quickly while my high saves keep me relatively unscathed, and doing a little backup emergency healing with lay on hands and sovereignty in a pinch.

Thing is, I have DPS builds, and I don't like playing them much, because I spend most of my time on normal, and I don't like being an SP sponge.

Is it "viable"? depends on who you are running with. To some people, any build that isn't 100% optimized for DPS is useless because they could have invited a DPS build instead and just made the cleric use more heal scrolls to complete the quest faster. If you have a bunch of friends you run with, they probably will like you even if you bring a 5wiz/5sorc/6bard two handed melee build. Though I won't claim they won't laugh at you for it.

[moorewr]

I've been soloing the battleground on my 17 S&B pally (defender of sibrys, but no intimidate, it's an old character, and yes, I know, "reroll noob")

Great fun.

57 AC in defensive stance with self buffs and could get higher if I ever get a chattering ring or a +3 int tome or something with an insight bonus (greensteel? nah, holy sword! 100% less shroud grinding required!)

Obviously, in elite quests, I'm taking a lot more damage, as 57 is not all that for elite AC.

But I still find ways to make myself as useful as possible, such as using the paladin's burst DPS to destroy enemy casters quickly while my high saves keep me relatively unscathed, and doing a little backup emergency healing with lay on hands and sovereignty in a pinch.

Thing is, I have DPS builds, and I don't like playing them much, because I spend most of my time on normal, and I don't like being an SP sponge.

Is it "viable"? depends on who you are running with. To some people, any build that isn't 100% optimized for DPS is useless because they could have invited a DPS build instead and just made the cleric use more heal scrolls to complete the quest faster. If you have a bunch of friends you run with, they probably will like you even if you bring a 5wiz/5sorc/6bard two handed melee build. Though I won't claim they won't laugh at you for it.

Paladins have great potential DPS - zeal/exalted smite/divine sacrifice, so if your party is going DPS you can probably keep up. It is a missed opportunity not to have intimidate, but not necessarily fatal if you can kill. Where s-n-b is left in the dust is when the party is using stat damage or vorpals.. non-TWF just can't keep up.

[mdonais]

I recently made a drow paladin on the new server, I haven't played in years so I don't really keep up.

My paladin has intimidate cross class. Is there any way to get it as a class skill?

I am maxing it out but it is costing double etc.

Help.

Thanks.

Island.

[RTN]

There is no way for a pure pally to get Intimidate as a class skill. You'll have to multiclass. Fighter is the most common multiclass, but Rogue is another. You can do barb as well, but the rages can cause some issues with pally, I think.

[VonBek]

I thought the Alignment caused more issues.

[RTN]

I thought the Alignment caused more issues.

[mdonais]

There is no way for a pure pally to get Intimidate as a class skill. You'll have to multiclass. Fighter is the most common multiclass, but Rogue is another. You can do barb as well, but the rages can cause some issues with pally, I think.

Wow, so I have to give up my capstone and 2 skill points per level just to get taunt skill.

Kind of crappy.

I think I will just suck it up and be -12 to my skills.

When I level up should I be putting stat points into charisma or strength? Both seem really good for my tank paladin.

Island.

[krud]

sword and board is very viable, but it has been pigeonholed into the intimitank role. There is no way around that. Building a s&b without intimidate is like making a cleric who doesn't heal. You will find your dps lacking, and no real advantage in defense over most TWF of THF builds. On normal settings you'll be perfectly capable, but your shortcomings become much more noticable on elite settings. Without intimidate you'll just be chasing the mobs that are aggroed on everyone else. It will seem like you have a very survivable build until that time when everyone else is dead and you are the last one standing. When the aggro finally turns on you, you'll see just how little your defense helps out. So, if you go s&b you must intimitank.

It's sad that the only way to make it viable is to build around one skill, but that's the way the game has played out. Any s&b melee build I now plan I make sure that they will be able to meet the minimum requirements for GTWF, so I can dish out some dps whenever needed. There are some elite end bosses that must be dealt with by lots of dps. A party full of s&b types just can't put out enough dps sometimes.

At least it doesn't suck eggs as much as ranged combat

[Borror0]

Building a s&b without intimidate is like making a cleric who doesn't heal.

Welcome to Module 9.

Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys are changing that.

[FluffyCalico]

Welcome to Module 9.

Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys are changing that.

I was in a group with a level 19 defender who had a min2. My 17 ranger could draw aggro almost at will from him. Note: I did not want aggro lol.

[krud]

Welcome to Module 9.

Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys are changing that.

How so? With the reduced speed in the defensive stances, you're going to need to find a way to bring the mobs to you. You won't be able to chase them down when in the stance, and you don't get (enough) increased hate generation when not in a stance. The only way it works without intimidate is if the other party members kite the mobs toward you. Good luck with that. "I built this super twf dps toon just so I can kite mobs to you?!"

[Borror0]

I was in a group with a level 19 defender who had a min2. My 17 ranger could draw aggro almost at will from him. Note: I did not want aggro lol.

Yeah, I was assuming that Turbine did try to make those useful. My intimitank does not have SD III yet.

I should have made a less assertive statement.

[Borror0]

How so? With the reduced speed in the defensive stances, you're going to need to find a way to bring the mobs to you. You won't be able to chase them down when in the stance, and you don't get any increased hate generation when not in a stance. The only way it works without intimidate is if the other party members kite the mobs toward you. Good luck with that. "I built this super twf dps toon just so I can kite mobs to you?!"

I was assuming four things here:

1. Turbine playtested Defensive Stance and made sure it is of use for S&B characters
2. S&B would not be used for trash mobs
3. Named mobs don't move like crazy
4. Your party members have enough brain to let you catch sight aggro and let you DPS first
5. You have a positive Tumble score

[FluffyCalico]

I was assuming four things here:

1. Turbine playtested Defensive Stance and made sure it is of use for S&B characters
2. S&B would not be used for trash mobs
3. Named mobs don't move like crazy
4. Your party members have enough brain to let you catch sight aggro and let you DPS first
5. You have a positive Tumble score

In defense of defender, I think he would have had a much better chance of holding the aggro if he was 1 level higher and had the capstone.