Good sword and board builds?

[Djangoman2k]

It seems every build I see is either two weapon or two handed fighter. Is this a play style choice, or are there simply no viable sword and board builds?

[Borror0]

It depends what you mean by viable. S&B was not optimal in previous content.

That might haver changed with the latest update but that, time will tell.

[kuro_zero]

There are plenty of viable S&B builds, but it tends to be more situational and an exception rather than the rule. DPS is king, the best way to mitigate damage is to kill the mobs as quickly as possible. Many times the build specializes in S&B but can whip out the two-hander or another weapon when they need to put out the hurt.

The biggest problem is the huge number of stacking AC bonuses available in the game (Insight, dodge, etc) and the "monk splash" builds combined with the easily obtainable +6 stat items and tomes make modest starting DEX and WIS capable of reaching and surpassing AC levels of S&B while maintaining the huge DPS disparity between TWF and S&B.

PrEs help, and Grazing Hits system was implemented to penalize non-shield AC builds (but still hurting S&B as well), but so far it doesn't seem enough.

[Djangoman2k]

Well, I guess by viable, I mean not a detriment to the group. I'm not a min-maxer or a power gamer, but I have a high level mage I did some raids with, and even though he wasn't optimal, he was still a useful character that I never had any complaints about. My concern is that if I decide to make a S&B Paladin, that that won't be true. I'm ok with not having an optimal character, but I don't want to be seen as a burden.

[kuro_zero]

Being a detriment to the group, from my experience and my humble opinion, is much more dependent on the PLAYER and not the toon/build.

With casters its significantly easier to be an asset to the party as its all about spell selection and timing. Also significantly easier to gear - SP item, maybe some (or a lot, depending on your luck) reavers for the napkin, and as high of a casting stat as you can get - the rest falls on player know-how and ability.

Gearing a melee takes significantly more time, and AC builds the longest to grind.

Since you've been around the block once or twice, my advice would be to look around the forums for build ideas. Find out how much time or effort you're willing to put into your character and build around what you've seen work and not work while playing your caster.

Other than that its not so different than caster. Know what weapons to use, when to turtle up with shield block, when to whip out that two-hander, and when to intimidate.

[Djangoman2k]

Being a detriment to the group, from my experience and my humble opinion, is much more dependent on the PLAYER and not the toon/build.

With casters its significantly easier to be an asset to the party as its all about spell selection and timing. Also significantly easier to gear - SP item, maybe some (or a lot, depending on your luck) reavers for the napkin, and as high of a casting stat as you can get - the rest falls on player know-how and ability.

Gearing a melee takes significantly more time, and AC builds the longest to grind.

Since you've been around the block once or twice, my advice would be to look around the forums for build ideas. Find out how much time or effort you're willing to put into your character and build around what you've seen work and not work while playing your caster.

Other than that its not so different than caster. Know what weapons to use, when to turtle up with shield block, when to whip out that two-hander, and when to intimidate.

Thanks man. I appreciate the feedback.

[Assio]

This is a really well built S&B build. It shows what the potential of the build can be.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1460361

[shores11]

It seems every build I see is either two weapon or two handed fighter. Is this a play style choice, or are there simply no viable sword and board builds?

Its flavor I think. I have a rogue and a ranger that I use TWF with but then I have a paladin that is strictly S&B. I think the overall damage output is higher with TWF but my paladin can hang in there with most of the kills and support fighting. The one thing I like about my paladin is when the fighting gets a little tougher and the 600 HP a fighter or barbarian has means squat because of there weak AC my paladin with 344 HP and a 65 + AC is still in there fighting strong.

[rimble]

It seems every build I see is either two weapon or two handed fighter. Is this a play style choice, or are there simply no viable sword and board builds?

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think the best 'team tank' you can have is a Stalwart Defender Intimitank with a Paladin (considering todays content, KotC) nearby. The Paladin should buff up the Defenders AC with his aura, then concentrate on doing damage.

This is just a crazy theory in my head. No in game experience supports this, but it is the plan for my pure Paladin.

[Goldeneye]

Personally, In my opinion, Sword and Board is a tool, not a build. There was a very good point made, that probly the most effective way to reduce damage is by killing enemies faster. When in a tight spot, or main tanking, putting on a shield works, but the majority of the time you will be in full-sprint DPS mode using THF or TWF for the DPS/Kills.

[sigtrent]

Against monsters on normal and sometimes hard difficulty sword and shield works very well because you can stop a lot of damage.

Think of every combat as a race to run you out of HP. You can win the race by running faster or by slowing your opponent. Defense is like slowing your opponent and offence is like running faster.

The problem in high level play or elite play at lower levels is there are no certain defenses so it tends to be safer to go offense as it pretty much always works.

The other issue with sword and board is that you can get as good or better AC by making a monk based character which uses dex and wis instead of armor and shield. The areas of improvement for shield AC are just more limited than your wisdom and dex scores combined.

My high level character has TWF, THF and sword and shield enhancements/feats. I use TWF the most as it does the most damage. I use sword and shield next because sometimes in smaller groups durability and resource management matters more than kill rates. I use THF for certain types of DR heavy monsters where my TWF attacks can't penetrate well.

If you make a sword and shield paladin I recommend you take power attack, a good strength and carry a nice two handed weapon or a selection of them in your pack. It will serve you well when you just don't have need of the extra shield AC.

[Thrudh]

Personally, In my opinion, Sword and Board is a tool, not a build. There was a very good point made, that probly the most effective way to reduce damage is by killing enemies faster. When in a tight spot, or main tanking, putting on a shield works, but the majority of the time you will be in full-sprint DPS mode using THF or TWF for the DPS/Kills.

That's a good way of putting it... My barbarian/fighter normally uses a greataxe, but he can switch to "tank mode" when needed... There ARE times when pulling out a shield is a better move, and there are times when pure DPS is the way to go...

[BlackRage]

This is a really well built S&B build. It shows what the potential of the build can be.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1460361

Pal14/Ftr6 would be a much better split.

[Angelus_dead]

Think of every combat as a race to run you out of HP. You can win the race by running faster or by slowing your opponent. Defense is like slowing your opponent and offence is like running faster.

That's a good way to think about it, and it brings up two important examples. Consider an "offense" character to be balanced against a "defense" character so that if they fought each other, the result would be too close to predict.

1. If a high offense character wins a quest in 5 minutes and a high defense one takes 10 minutes, which one earned more xp and loot per minute?

2. If two offense characters or two defense characters are working together, then they naturally are twice as effective as if they were alone. But if an offense and defense character join in a team, which one is doing more damage to enemies, and withstanding more attacks from the opposition?

[moorewr]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think the best 'team tank' you can have is a Stalwart Defender Intimitank with a Paladin (considering todays content, KotC) nearby. The Paladin should buff up the Defenders AC with his aura, then concentrate on doing damage.

This is just a crazy theory in my head. No in game experience supports this, but it is the plan for my pure Paladin.

I've tried out this exact combo.. Stalwart defender's full-time DR, plus the shield DR and intimidate means I can tie orthons down on my fighter while others do the beatdown. We've had good success with it so far. My kills lag well behind other melees in s-n-b mode, but I'm helping keep them alive.

[Thrudh]

But if an offense and defense character join in a team, which one is doing more damage to enemies, and withstanding more attacks from the opposition?

This is a bit disingenous... An Intimitank defensive player matched with any DPS player (especially a rogue) will probably finish the quest faster than 2 offense characters, because they have to stop and heal a lot less...

[moorewr]

This is a bit disingenous... An Intimitank defensive player matched with any DPS player (especially a rogue) will probably finish the quest faster than 2 offense characters, because they have to stop and heal a lot less...

He has a serious point - the defensive approach is useful in a limited set of circumstances - you have to be able to divert aggro to you, you have to make a difference in the survivability of the offensive characters, and you have to survive once you have the aggro on you.

This is why that defense-themed character has to be able to provide high dps when the situation warrants - my fighter, for example, switches to great axe and uses fighter haste boost when offense is needed more defense/aggro management.

[Borror0]

This is a bit disingenous... An Intimitank defensive player matched with any DPS player (especially a rogue) will probably finish the quest faster than 2 offense characters, because they have to stop and heal a lot less...

...and a rogue with a a DPS character with Intimidate will finish even faster.

It's your example that is disingenuous. Angelus_dead was clearly covering all classes, and thus his point is true: defensive specced characters are a waste of time unless you need the additional survivability to complete the quest as they have less DPS and therefore lengthen completion time.

[RTN]

Build an intimitank, as others have suggested. They are gear intensive, but are very valuable. One link was posted here, but if you check through the class forums (fighter, paladin, etc.), you'll find more than one variant. Most are some combo of fighter and paladin, although I know one very good intimitank that is currently Fighter 14/Rogue 2 and will end at F18/R2.

[Angelus_dead]

This is a bit disingenous... An Intimitank defensive player matched with any DPS player (especially a rogue) will probably finish the quest faster than 2 offense characters, because they have to stop and heal a lot less...

My example was very abstract to see the game design theory going on. In fact, that's actually the example used to demonstrate why an aggro-pulling ability like Intimidate is crucial for a teamplay game featuring characters with uneven levels of offense and defense. Otherwise, there's no reason for enemies to waste time attacking someone with good defense until all the offensive builds have been finished off.

To bring in an intimidation build means getting into the specifics of a particular game, which runs into all the questions like:
1. How reliably and often does Intimidate work, and what does it cost the build?
2. How much DPS does the defense guy really sacrifice?
3. How much protection does the defense guy really gain, remembering that the more dangerous mobs are often casters?

Then there's also this important topic:
4. Normal groups would be more than just two characters. If you already have an offense guy and an intimitank, then which kind of character would be more helpful to add for the other slots of the party?

The answer is to add more DPS characters, because they essentially stack with each other but intimidators don't. That demonstrates why an Intimitank also needs to be able to play as DPS.