Good sword and board builds?

[krud]

I was assuming four things here:

1. Turbine playtested Defensive Stance and made sure it is of use for S&B characters I have DoS2. It's very useful, but without intimidate I think it would be much less so.
2. S&B would not be used for trash mobs As I said, you'll need to build him with dps in mind (which <> s&b)
3. Named mobs don't move like crazy but party members often do, which drags them away
4. Your party members have enough brain to let you catch sight aggro and let you DPS first only works I take it you don't pug very often
5. You have a positive Tumble score I am finding this out. I neglected tumble after level1. I need to keep tumbleweed on me, but it means a lower intimidate.

a lot of assumptions there. Still s&b even with those PrEs works way better when paired with intimidate. I wouldn't build a s&b without it.

[Borror0]

As I said, you'll need to build him with dps in mind (which <> s&b)

...like every S&B should be built?

Pro-tip: If your S&B does not have GTWF nor uses a two-handed weapon at times, you're doing it wrong.

but party members often do, which drags them away

If you have aggro, that does not happen. If you do not have aggro, see point #1.

I am finding this out. I neglected tumble after level1. I need to keep tumbleweed on me, but it means a lower intimidate.

My fighter has a positive Tumble and he only put one point in Tumble, but he has a 23 Dex.

a lot of assumptions there.

All of them are reasonable unless you PUG a lot. Then, assumption #4 is a stretch but you just say Bring him back to me! in party chat and, if it fails, you just have to PM the cleric to Let them him die!!

By the way, you'll run in that problem anyway unless you floor the boss.

Still s&b even with those PrEs works way better when paired with intimidate. I wouldn't build a s&b without it.

Me neither.

[krud]

...like every S&B should be built?

Pro-tip: If your S&B does not have GTWF nor uses a two-handed weapon at times, you're doing it wrong.

If you have aggro, that does not happen. If you do not have aggro, see point #1.

My fighter has a positive Tumble and he only put one point in Tumble, but he has a 23 Dex.

All of them are reasonable unless you PUG a lot. Then, assumption #4 is a stretch but you just say Bring him back to me! in party chat and, if it fails, you just have to PM the cleric to Let them him die!!

By the way, you'll run in that problem anyway unless you floor the boss.

Me neither.

Another point that needs to be brought up is how much more twitchy it has become to play a s&b, especially for the paladin versions. Hotkey your dps (twf/thf) weapons to get aggro and/or intimidate (you should have it), s&b setup when you get aggro. defensive stance, combat expertise, <shift-tumble> for when you're chained, smites, remove curse pots (sux when you're chained and have a low tumble, not to mention the healing hit), refresh that divine might and divine favor, loh for the slacker cleric. ****! did that remove curse pot just turn off my CE? (and I thought cleave/greatcleave would be a good idea )

[Borror0]

If your opponent is a slow attack (like a giant) shield blocking might be worthwhile too. Didn't play with that much yet.

Honestly, "twitchy" combat would be less of a pain if the game was more responsive to our commands. Right now, there is a delay in most of our actions. What to change weapon? Wait a second. Want to use Trip? Time it right or you'll have to press multiple times! Want to self-buff? Check the useless animation. Turning CE back on? Processing... please wait. Want to use an action boost? Watch the 1.5 second delay! In a fast-paced combat like DDO's, it shows and it's annoying.

[William_the_Bat]

Yeah, defensive stance's usefulness really depends on the party.

I sometimes run with some new guildies who make up for their lack of high end equipment for either AC or DPS by using paralysers extensively. It makes for an easier time for the cleric, but when we need to make things dead fast, it can be a problem because each of them is tied up with keeping a couple monsters green and not killing anyone and it takes a little while for everything to die.

Among them, it's pretty reasonable to go first, then hit defensive stance once everything is looking at me, unless of course there's some casters to chase down first. It actually improves my DPS in a small way with the strength bonus, and the added AC is welcome to help overcome -my- lack of high end AC gear. (no insight bonus to AC, no chattering ring)

In the average PUG, I can still use it, but only situationally, and it depends a lot on just how "zergish" the group is. There's no cooldown, so if the group moves too far to cover in a reasonable time at 1/3 speed, I'll turn it off and back on again once I'm there. If they do that more than a couple times, I'll leave it off.

As for hate-tanking, I'm not entirely convinced it is working as intended. +120% agro should allow a S&B pally with a holy sword and full buffs (zeal, divine favor, divine might III, a few exalted smites) to do more hate than nearly any non-defender melee... and I'm still losing agro occasionally to TWF types. Admittedly, min II (depending on specifics) often have more extra dice than holy burst, but you'd think a 500 point exalted smite head start would count for something.

We'll see how much better it gets with defender III, though 18 is a ways off still.

[sephiroth1084]

2. If two offense characters or two defense characters are working together, then they naturally are twice as effective as if they were alone. But if an offense and defense character join in a team, which one is doing more damage to enemies, and withstanding more attacks from the opposition?

A_D clarifies/expands on this a little more further down in relation to DDO specifically, but I wanted to chime in and point out that in non-easy content (which has a very wide band of possible definitions), the pairing of offense and defense can work very well, as one character saves the other from dying, allowing the latter to perform his job.

Pal14/Ftr6 would be a much better split.

Much better. The linked build looks pretty poor to me. Spring Attack?! Blech! Improved Shield Mastery? Eh. No offensive capability? Ditch it.

I've had a successful S&B tank who is now level 18 at 14/4 Paladin/Fighter. Intimidate is the key, aside from grinding for all the various and sundry bonuses to your AC. That said, making sure you have some offensive abilities is important for those situations where something needs to die fast or when you are not required to serve your primary purpose, whether because someone else is doing it or the monster(s) in question is(are) not threatening enough to warrant being defensive.

If you go Pal 19/Ftr 1, Pal 18/Ftr2, Pal 14/Ftr 6, or some Fighter base (my bias is obvious here), you want to max out your intimdate, consider taking Skill Focus, and most certainly take, at the very least, Combat Expertise, Power Attack and Toughness.

I've posted my setup around the forums somewhere, but if youw ant to see what mine looks like, I'll reproduce it here. You can also hunt through Borr's list of threads for his builds, or search out intimitank threads (that'd take a while).

[Borror0]

My thread is a bit old, though. I have not updated it sine M6, I think. I posted in it, but that's about it.

[TechNoFear]

Looking at efficiency, it boils down to how much longer will the Tank be taking damage from the mob (because their lower DPS requires more time to kill it) and will this mean the Tank requires equal, less or more resources than a DPS character.

Considering an Elite Orthon Defender from Shroud Elite.
Assuming;
both the DPS and the Tank have the same approx HP,
both have heavy fort
both have an AC that the EOD needs a 20 to hit
the tank is using a twr shield, the DPS is TWF or THF.
EOD grazes on 13+.
EOD hits for ~48 HP and grazes for ~18 HP (*).

The DPS takes ~8.7 HP / swing and the tank takes ~5.5 HP / swing.

This means the DPS has to do ~57% more damage per second or will requires more resources (because the DPS failed to kill the mob quickly enough to take less damage).

According to the ‘Elite Shroud DPS’ thread the top DPS build does ~360 DPS so if the Tank can do over 230 DPS they will use less resources (lowest build is 210 DPS, Drow DOS is 285 DPS).

If the DPS’s AC drops by compared to the Tank then over 195 DPS will be enough, 2 AC means 168 DPS will be enough etc.

(* Interpolating numbers posted by Eladrin in the Grazing Hits thread)

You're missing the point. If a tank and a DPS build consume equal resources, the DPS character will be preferred because it takes a shorter duration.

You assume that the only combat has any relationship to quest duration (that having X% more DPS will equate directly to a Y% reduction in time).

You also assume the cleric prefers taking a minute or two less but requiring some resources (scrolls, mana pots) than a few minutes more but no resources.

[Borror0]

You assume that the only combat has any relationship to quest duration (that having X% more DPS will equate directly to a Y% reduction in time).

I assume that shorter combat duration will necessarily decrease the total quest duration unless it is a timed quest.

What is not logical about this?

You also assume the cleric prefers taking a minute or two less but requiring some resources (scrolls, mana pots) than a few minutes more but no resources.

What did you think "If a tank and a DPS build consume equal resources" meant?