Casters Are Dead.

[smatt]

The lack of reading comprehension skills of some players had me abandoning this thread for a bit, but I thought I would pop back in since it is still alive. Welcome to the forums

Casters are not dead, despite my initial supposition. Just wizards are (and those without max DC's). Most of my initial thoughts in this thread were based off playing my wizard, since due to spell versatility, he was the easy choice to take into new content first. The lack of spells sticking made him obsolete to really accomplish much. Since then, I have run both my sorcs more through the new stuff (one conjuration spec'd and one enchantment spec'd).

The conjuration spec'd sorc is rocking. Web + Trap the Soul => Win. However, the wizard would not be able to accomplish as much as the sorc. Where this sorc used to only need one really awesome web to hold mobs, now I typically would want 3-4 if I want them all to stick. The sorc mana pool therefore becomes more relevant - and wizard "versatility" is left behind since I'm primarily only using a couple spells (those I'm focused in) anyway.

The enchantment sorc is lagging behind a little bit. Mass hold monster is not the cure-all I thought it would be, although mass charm monster isn't too bad, it doesn't last long. I've actually found myself nuking a bit more as well. Traditionally, I always preferred more CC spec'd sorcs to nuker builds, but the lower HP in some of the new stuff does make some old school AOE's useful again.

No Sam, reading comprehension is fine... Suffering through posts from whiny little crybabies isn't . And ya Sorcys still have one up as far as insta-killing stuff, simply from the mana pool and most other apects. But a well played wizzy, withthe right spells at the right times is cool too,and sometimes can be more useful..... SOMETIMES......

It's all about adjusting playstyle, and tactics...

[Samadhi]

No Sam, reading comprehension is fine... Suffering through posts from whiny little crybabies isn't . And ya Sorcys still have one up as far as insta-killing stuff, simply from the mana pool and most other apects. But a well played wizzy, withthe right spells at the right times is cool too,and sometimes can be more useful..... SOMETIMES......

It's all about adjusting playstyle, and tactics...

If by page 8, you still haven't picked up on the fact that, starting on page 1, I specifically stated that I was not talking about instakill (and have repeatedly emphasized that I am mostly talking about crowd control not any type of mob killing) - then I really don't know what to tell you.

[smatt]

If by page 8, you still haven't picked up on the fact that, starting on page 1, I specifically stated that I was not talking about instakill (and have repeatedly emphasized that I am mostly talking about crowd control not any type of mob killing) - then I really don't know what to tell you.

naw man, I understood what you were saying...... I was replying to the fact that you were saying in general terms taht casters were dead all the way around. Sure, I singled out insta-kill sorcy's as an example of a particular playstyle that would be affected some what. I agree tha all types of casters ahve been affected. I simply have said all along that their roles would change a bit, that they wern't dead, even insta-kills. The game would be a little harder than it was before. But as people found new tactics, tried new spells, leveled up etc. It wouldn't be the dooooooommmmm....... you and some others were making it out to be. Casters were fun for soem people to paly because once you learned how to play a caster it was easier than playing a melee.... Now that casters aren't AS effective as they were all the time.... Melees are a bit more appealing to some....


So in fact, I think perhaps you missed my point from my first replys...... Give it some time..... It's not THAT bad..... Not even for Wizzys.......

[Duratan99]

In the game of D&D melee characters are gods at the lower levels, but at some point the casters take over. This isn't the case in DDO anymore. I only log into my sorc to farm xc, blood stones, shroud, vod, hound, ect... now.

I use to feel like a god on my Sorc, now I don't feel like i'm anything but a haste/buff bot. They have turned casters into bards that can't heal, or melee dps -.-/.

I'm now rolling a melee because instead of being uber at the lower levels, i'll be uber all the time.

[spyderwolf]

trap the soul goes off more than 50% of the time on normal. casters have to get out of the habit of fort save spells and feelign liek god and go back to dpsing. you can dps and cc(will save stuff) effectively. on hard and elite, its suppsoed to be challenging.

[tinyelvis]

Well its good to see that there is a lot less whining here and a lot more folks are starting to see how massively effective casters can be in the new content. Sure, lame caster are lamer in the new content, but well spec'd well played casters still dominate. Many of those lame casters seem to be shelving their toons out of frustration.

Well played casters often play the most important role in the party. Two casters by themselves can easily run any elite quest in the battle field (or game for that matter). That really was not the case before mod 9. I prefer to have at least two self sufficient casters in every party. I don't like taking more than 2 melee since they seem to accumulate so much damage, and cause more stress on the cleric. No one in mod 9 should need to resort to pots or scrolls on a regular basis. The role of the melee is usually to finish off stoned, held, or dancing mobs. As well as beat on portals and kill trash mobs in end fight so that the caster can finish off the boss. Sometimes, the opposite strat is used.

I still hold to my prediction that casters are so uber in mod 9 that a nerf will be short in coming. Hell, ninety percent of the top end trash content is easily enchanted even on elite,..... the rest is easily stoned. My gosh imagine how massive we will be if they ever fix the sorc capstone.

[CrimsonFalcon03]

I'm glad to see that Turbine is finnally starting to nerf casters somewhat in the new content. As a meleer, the past 3 Mods have had nothing for us to do really except stand at the quest entrance polishing our weapons while the casters run the entire dungeon solo destroying anything in front of them. The game in the past few mods has become one-dimensional, you have 2 choices to play either a clc whose only job is to follow the casters as a portable refilling station for mana, or a caster with maximized, empower, heigtened, insta-kills and nukes; and if you don't play either of those two roles then your character is just simply gimped and no one wants to run with anyone who is not a caster or clc making the rest of the character classes just fillers or fodder.

[Vordax]

I'm glad to see that Turbine is finnally starting to nerf casters somewhat in the new content. As a meleer, the past 3 Mods have had nothing for us to do really except stand at the quest entrance polishing our weapons while the casters run the entire dungeon solo destroying anything in front of them. The game in the past few mods has become one-dimensional, you have 2 choices to play either a clc whose only job is to follow the casters as a portable refilling station for mana, or a caster with maximized, empower, heigtened, insta-kills and nukes; and if you don't play either of those two roles then your character is just simply gimped and no one wants to run with anyone who is not a caster or clc making the rest of the character classes just fillers or fodder.

Nerfed? They have been castrated. I can kill everything on the battlefield solo with my ranger, maybe use a few heal scrolls in the process and never need to shrine. I doubt there is a single caster than can do anywhere close to this without shrining.

Vordax

[bobbryan2]

I'm glad to see that Turbine is finnally starting to nerf casters somewhat in the new content. As a meleer, the past 3 Mods have had nothing for us to do really except stand at the quest entrance polishing our weapons while the casters run the entire dungeon solo destroying anything in front of them. The game in the past few mods has become one-dimensional, you have 2 choices to play either a clc whose only job is to follow the casters as a portable refilling station for mana, or a caster with maximized, empower, heigtened, insta-kills and nukes; and if you don't play either of those two roles then your character is just simply gimped and no one wants to run with anyone who is not a caster or clc making the rest of the character classes just fillers or fodder.

"As a meleer," your opinion matters very little. Just like I find people's opinions very suspect when they start out, "as a caster."

People that only play one type of character often lack the perspective to appreciate game balance. Casters have been powerful in the past, yes... but the fact that you think the last 3 mods have catered to casters shows your extreme bias, because, every mod since mod 5 have been ramping up melee strengths.

It was actually the 2 mods before the last three that catered to casters. I almost ceased to play my melees after mod 4, and it wasn't until mod 6 that they were useful doing something again.

[adamkatt]

Seriously. I hope I am wrong

You are, i just logged into my sorc and he was still alive.

[smatt]

"As a meleer," your opinion matters very little. Just like I find people's opinions very suspect when they start out, "as a caster."

People that only play one type of character often lack the perspective to appreciate game balance. Casters have been powerful in the past, yes... but the fact that you think the last 3 mods have catered to casters shows your extreme bias, because, every mod since mod 5 have been ramping up melee strengths.

It was actually the 2 mods before the last three that catered to casters. I almost ceased to play my melees after mod 4, and it wasn't until mod 6 that they were useful doing something again.

You see here's where's i see the problems with people who complain about classes being gimped by Mods. Yes the power curve or effectivness curve of a class ebbs and flows. But when I see people say, well in Mod so and so I gave up on that class... Well what that shows IMO, is the lack of will to simply adapt their toons to the tasks at hand and perform the tasks and play their toons in the best possible role. I understand that some people like to play in very distinct ways, and sometimes that dicatates that they simply won't have fun filling any role that might not be within there particular niche role they have fun playing. In the end, while there's nothing wrong with such things, IMO this is what leads people to have less fun overall within the game as it changes, and rotates through-out the classes. So what really happens is people lack of willingness to adapt to the game ends up bing a self-gimpign exercise...... It also leads to a much more biased opinion just as Sam showed at the beggining of the thread. He said casters were dead, well then just as I said would happen, he came back a couple weeks later, and said well Sorcys are OK, it's wizzys that are dead.... I still disagree, they're just not the super-duper-I'm-so-uber toons they were.... As if Wizzys ever really were that to begin with.... They're just different but can fill a very important role when played creatively, and can be fun to some at least....


it's all good people have fun in their own ways... But always blaming the gaem for gimping classes is a very narrow minded approach, when really it's the players playstyles and unwillingness to adapt that most often gimps or nerfs classes.

[tinyelvis]

Nerfed? They have been castrated. I can kill everything on the battlefield solo with my ranger, maybe use a few heal scrolls in the process and never need to shrine. I doubt there is a single caster than can do anywhere close to this without shrining.

Vordax

I can cast the spell mm. I bet there is no ranger that can do that. Did you not realize until mod 9 that different classes can do things that other classes cannot do? Also, I can solo kill everything with my caster on the battle field faster than your ranger.

I definitely believe things have changed for casters in Mod 9. They got a whole heck of a lot easier. And questing with good casters means that melees dont stand around anymore while casters finger everything. Now they can do the important job of beating down portals and finishing off charmed, stoned, or dancing mobs. They have a reason to quest with casters now. Just don't take too many melees or else they stress out the healer. For any quest at most you need one or two good melees for some thats even a hindrance.

I predict that casters will be nerfed soon. Its not taking long for others on my server to start mimicking my tactics. I see other good caster tactics by knowledgable folks too. I am sure these will spread to other servers soon. In a couple more weeks or perhaps a month or so melees will start to whine. That will be the indication that caster nerfs are coming. I also predict that the first caster nerf will come before they even bother to Fix the Non-funcioning Sorcerer Capstone.

[Vordax]

I can cast the spell mm. I bet there is no ranger that can do that. Did you not realize until mod 9 that different classes can do things that other classes cannot do? Also, I can solo kill everything with my caster on the battle field faster than your ranger.

I wonder how many magic missiles it takes to take out the red named horned devil on the battlefield.

Vordax

[tinyelvis]

I wonder how many magic missiles it takes to take out the red named horned devil on the battlefield.

Vordax

I would guess about 60 casts which i can do in as many seconds. How quick can you kill him with a +1 longsword?

Now of course I'd rather cast 6 to 8 polar rays in 15 to 21 seconds. Plus, I can do that from the safety of a tower. You of course claim you don't even need a heal scroll, even though you will probably encounter 6 or so rare bosses to fight. Pretty good for a squishy ranger. Who do we think is exaggerating (cough...liar) ?

[Vordax]

I would guess about 60 casts which i can do in as many seconds. How quick can you kill him with a +1 longsword?

Now of course I'd rather cast 6 to 8 polar rays in 15 to 21 seconds. Plus, I can do that from the safety of a tower. You of course claim you don't even need a heal scroll, even though you will probably encounter 6 or so rare bosses to fight. Pretty good for a squishy ranger. Who do we think is exaggerating (cough...liar) ?

So can you kill 3-6 named and all the mobs on the way without shrining?

The red named horned devil gets me to about half before its dead (without using exploitive terrain). I will probably use a heal scroll after that.

The red named pit fiend usually takes a scroll or 2 in the middle of the fight as does the red named troll.

The rest just vorp or smite, in all I use 0-3 heals scrolls in a pass through the battlefield and don't need to shrine, how about you?

Vordax

[sephiroth1084]

I can cast the spell mm. I bet there is no ranger that can do that. Did you not realize until mod 9 that different classes can do things that other classes cannot do? Also, I can solo kill everything with my caster on the battle field faster than your ranger.

I definitely believe things have changed for casters in Mod 9. They got a whole heck of a lot easier. And questing with good casters means that melees dont stand around anymore while casters finger everything. Now they can do the important job of beating down portals and finishing off charmed, stoned, or dancing mobs. They have a reason to quest with casters now. Just don't take too many melees or else they stress out the healer. For any quest at most you need one or two good melees for some thats even a hindrance.

I predict that casters will be nerfed soon. Its not taking long for others on my server to start mimicking my tactics. I see other good caster tactics by knowledgable folks too. I am sure these will spread to other servers soon. In a couple more weeks or perhaps a month or so melees will start to whine. That will be the indication that caster nerfs are coming. I also predict that the first caster nerf will come before they even bother to Fix the Non-funcioning Sorcerer Capstone.

Casters did get nerfed. And HARD! Dance? Stone? Charm? Sure, maybe after an Energy Drain or two. Whoops! Not only do all the monsters save about 85+% of the time (even on their "weak" saves) against anything a caster throws, many also have immunity to most of the above.

Ramping up saves a bit is all well and good, but my capped wizard is 2 points away from having the highest Int in the game (42), barring consumables (like the store +2 stat pots), and can't land anything. Monsters even running through my Webs as though I had laid down tissue paper. I can throw 3 or 4 Mass Hold Monster into a group of 5 or 6 tieflings, devils, hellhounds and bezekira, and maybe get 1 or 2 held monsters (and that's with spell focus). Nothing fails against FoD or Wail, not even enemy casters.

Stuff runs right through dancing ball. Acid and Solid fog are either bugged or have had their slow effects dramatically nerfed--had some trolls run through an acid fog in about 2 seconds (they took just 1 tic of damage).

So, every spell a caster wants to have land requires 50 SP tacked onto it. And even, the spell won't necessarily go through. And most of the dangerous stuff out there is immune to the best damage spells (firewall, Meteor Swarm, DBF), and have too many HP to DPS down efficiently.

I have no idea how any casual casters are going to survive out here!

The only spell I've found to be really worth casting is Prismatic Spray, just because I seem almost guaranteed to get some beneficial effect at each casting if I hit 3+ creatures (fear, flesh to stone, disappear, huge damage, stun), and even then I sometimes see 5 of those little blue "I MADE IT!" symbols pop up as all the monsters make their saves against I don't know what.

I tried denying it. I tried playing through it. But having reached level 20, and picked up 4 more Int, I can safely say that casters got hit something fierce with the nerf bat.

[tinyelvis]

Casters did get nerfed. And HARD! Dance? Stone? Charm? Sure, maybe after an Energy Drain or two. Whoops! Not only do all the monsters save about 85+% of the time (even on their "weak" saves) against anything a caster throws, many also have immunity to most of the above.

Ramping up saves a bit is all well and good, but my capped wizard is 2 points away from having the highest Int in the game (42), barring consumables (like the store +2 stat pots), and can't land anything. Monsters even running through my Webs as though I had laid down tissue paper. I can throw 3 or 4 Mass Hold Monster into a group of 5 or 6 tieflings, devils, hellhounds and bezekira, and maybe get 1 or 2 held monsters (and that's with spell focus). Nothing fails against FoD or Wail, not even enemy casters.

Stuff runs right through dancing ball. Acid and Solid fog are either bugged or have had their slow effects dramatically nerfed--had some trolls run through an acid fog in about 2 seconds (they took just 1 tic of damage).

So, every spell a caster wants to have land requires 50 SP tacked onto it. And even, the spell won't necessarily go through. And most of the dangerous stuff out there is immune to the best damage spells (firewall, Meteor Swarm, DBF), and have too many HP to DPS down efficiently.

I have no idea how any casual casters are going to survive out here!

The only spell I've found to be really worth casting is Prismatic Spray, just because I seem almost guaranteed to get some beneficial effect at each casting if I hit 3+ creatures (fear, flesh to stone, disappear, huge damage, stun), and even then I sometimes see 5 of those little blue "I MADE IT!" symbols pop up as all the monsters make their saves against I don't know what.

I tried denying it. I tried playing through it. But having reached level 20, and picked up 4 more Int, I can safely say that casters got hit something fierce with the nerf bat.

I don't think there is one ounce of truth to this reply. You don't even seem to know that your intel can reach 44 and 46 with the use of easily obtained and long lasting stat potions from an in game vendor. Please speak for yourself when commenting what casters can and cannot do. Just because you don't understand what you're doing and your caster performs poorly does not mean that all caster stink in the new content. You have obviously gimped yourself in some way, since a 42 is plenty high to land spells regularly without energy drain. You just need to use your head.

The fact that you have yet to stumble on the best spell for a caster in the battlefield really highlights your poor understanding of what it takes to perform out there.

[ddoer]

trap the soul goes off more than 50% of the time on normal. casters have to get out of the habit of fort save spells and feelign liek god and go back to dpsing. you can dps and cc(will save stuff) effectively. on hard and elite, its suppsoed to be challenging.

if "dpsing" mean polay ray, it is a waste of mana. It probably take you more than 5 shoots to kill a Orthon/Barbazu (unless you always get crit)

cc + melee dps is fine.

I don't think there is one ounce of truth to this reply. You don't even seem to know that your intel can reach 44 and 46 with the use of easily obtained and long lasting stat potions from an in game vendor. Please speak for yourself when commenting what casters can and cannot do. Just because you don't understand what you're doing and your caster performs poorly does not mean that all caster stink in the new content. You have obviously gimped yourself in some way, since a 42 is plenty high to land spells regularly without energy drain. You just need to use your head.

The fact that you have yet to stumble on the best spell for a caster in the battlefield really highlights your poor understanding of what it takes to perform out there.

Look at tinyelvis' build at Solo Sorcerer and Diplomacy. You may learn why your spell do not land.

I didn't read most posts in this thread. imho, caster could do instant kill just as before. In the past, we can FoD in one shoot but has less mana. Now, we have more mana, but have to do an Energy Drain before FoD/Banshee. ED a few mobs and then Banshee them is cool.

for sure you can't instant kill most of the mobs that come in a batch of 5-10, that's why you have CC spells.

I think caster is reborn in mod 9.

[smatt]

I think caster is reborn in mod 9.

*Gasp.... No they're dead... worthelss

[Samadhi]

I think caster is reborn in mod 9.

The caster, or the sorc? The sorc, with double specialization and otherwise pimped to the nines, only using 2 or 3 spells along the lines of their specialization, can still be highly effective. The important thing to remember here - is that versatility is what doesn't work anymore - unless you consider spamming enervation variety.

Now, whether this is fun to play for you or not is much more highly subjective. Now that I got it down, I have pretty much only been playing my sorc at high level. On the other hand, I could see how many caster's might not like only throwing three spells out of their spellbook - and this a huge disadvantage to wizards particularly.

The mob saves are too high, enough so that I will not PUG out a caster spot, since only specified builds are going to be effective at other than a manasponge. The high mob saves is particularly detrimental to wizards, that can no longer rely on versatility to keep them inline with sorcs.