Casters Are Dead.

[Riggs]

Hey for those who like to play their casters primarily as support toons, more power to them, I'll be meleeing. I already see comments like 'Ok, who's bringing a haster?....then silence...."

I've moved on from the concern about 'casters are dead', and am now thinking about just deleting my sorc once and for all. I don't have fun in a support toon role, and will leave it to others to do so.

The game has swung way overbalanced in favor of casters back to mod 1 days.

"Ok buff and haste and dont try any funny stuff like dps, you will just draw agro away from the tanks who can actually kill stuff".

Yeah there are ways to make casters useful, and some spells will still be decent dps. But a 'tank' can land dps and either have hp or ac to avoid some of the backlash, casters have displacement....but with half the hp and a 3rd the ac.

Anyone all excited now about the sorc capstone? "Woot 10% more damage....when your stuck casting non-damage spells most of the time anyway...."

[Twerpp]

Quit whining, give us a fresh haste and keep up the fogs plz.

[bandyman1]

Because hardly anybody in your raid group wants to play their sorc or wizard? You don't really need those spells in the end raid part 2...DPS away!

Like I said; I'm not saying you need them.

I'm just saying it's far easier ( and you know what I'm talking about ), because of the sheer amount of firepower a good caster can dump so quickly. Max/emp FW, SRay, DBF and call it a day. Sure you can DPS away. But your clerics are spending a lot more resourses than they probably want to.

Energy Drain/Enervate + FtS works well on parts one and three. A Fire Shielded caster with Energy Drain/Enervate + FoD > than any fire ele. Helps when they can ignore curses while healing WFed as well.

If you don't want to run your caster, by all means don't.

But to say they aren't useful is just BS. Sorry.

[Bilger]

So far have capped my CC/Heal Bard to 20 and am 40k xp from my wiz capping.

The Bard was easier by far and alot funner to play. The caster is fun to play but is getting boring fast. Web, Fog and kill clerics, elementals, or enemy casters.

Casters are being limited to CC and some killing and is fine but boring as heck.

Yes, playing my caster has made alot of quests easy and I can not just blast my way through content like before. I just feel very limited to what can do to be a effective member of party. So I do what I can and get the quest done.

IMO we will find ways to be more helpful as mod goes on and new stuff comes out but atm a caster's life is a boring one. Bard is alot funner and more helpful to the group atm but a well played caster can be very effective, be it somewhat boring to play.

[smatt]

OK, so Samahdi and Pyro certainly have a point........ For thsoe that liked to play Sorcys, when they were the all powerful basically unlimited mana killing machines, the new content simpy doesn't offer that option very easily anymore. I'm not critisizing that playstyle at all, but the game did need to move away from that aspect IMO. It was tilted far to far in that direction, with even clerics being in on the mix as well, with destruction, slay living, and BB all in the mix as fast effective killers far more that any possible melee method. Mind you I know there's always exceptions, I like to ignore the uber elite players who're always seem to chime in about how awesome they are, and that they personally can do this or that. I'm talking the middle of the bell curve here.

The game has moved on from the only worthwhile spells in MOST quests being finger and PK.... It would be very difficult to balance the game for all the classes to have a cookie, while leaving mob saves so low that casters could just finger their way through quests. It's sad that some find playing top of the heap insta-kill casters unappealing. I don't like to see anybodies fun taken away, but looking at it with the big picture across the entire player population, there's always going to be some unhappy people when the game moves from their particular or preferred playstyle. And from what I'm seeing so far this Mod has found a good balance allowing the vast majority of classes to be more useful than not. But I strongly disagree with the statement "Casters are dead...." Insta-kill one trick pony casters are indead not the shizbot in the new stuff no doubt.... But resourceful, versatile, casters that are willing to not be on the top of the heap all the time have a huge roll in making things far easier for parties to be successful. It's unfrotunate that the Devs moved the game so far into one classes/playstyles court, theyv'e doen it repeatedly with different classes, and it always leads ****ed off players when it tilts back the other way.

If players are unhappy about how a class is playing right now, then put it on the shelf, and just wait a bit or maybe a LONG bit considering Turbine development cycles as of late . It WILL come back in vogue soon enough

[transtemporal]

I similarly noticed my greensteel-less sorc wasn't hugely effective in the new content (while my melees were very effective) but I have a feeling with max possible cha, greensteel cha stick, max spell pen and a couple more levels that he'll be back to peak performance.

We're just in the period of "mod-adaption" where we find the optimum way of dealing with the new content. Give it a few weeks.

[Kalari]

I think I will probably be grinding out more items for my wizard to though I do feel effective in there since I mainly focus on debuffing and immobilizing mobs anyway. I guess I was kinda hoping by the time our casters got to high levels there would be something else for them, scribing our own scrolls creating rods or wands ahh well I know my casters will still get play in the new content so dont think they are dead just yet.

[transtemporal]

Warforged Casters are equally problematic. Too many of them are NOT friendly to Clerics and don't know how to keep themselves repaired. Half of the time there's an issue with a Caster these days I happen to notice they are also a Warforged. Being that "my other main is a Cleric" (that should be a t-shirt!) I'm noticing it to be more and more common.

The worst of them all is the melee non-healer friendly Warforged who insist on tanking but don't bother bringing Reconstruct Scrolls for the Bards or Arcane. It's almost as bad as a Paly with 2 layonhands, no dps, that dies 10 times without consuming a single spell point.

"My main is a cleric." Thats definitely t-shirt material.

Maybe those pally's are doorstop builds?

[BlackSteel]

Ran Genesis Point the other night on my 17 Wiz. When we got to the part where people were running through the maze, I went up to the control room to throw the switches and dealt with all of the respawning orthons on my own. If they appeared one at a time, I'd throw an Enervation and FoD, which took care of about 80% of them without needing to toss another spell. If they appeared in 2s, I'd either hit them with Mass Hold (worked about 50% of the time), or I'd throw down a dancing ball and kite them through it until both stuck, then, in either case, I'd beat them down with a Dreamspitter. Went through a bunch of orthons with no real problem.

I've ran this several times now with a cleric and 5 melees, everyone takes turns using Haste shroud clickies and the quest is a walk thru.

For the control room, I typically go up there solo on my Frenzy Barb and just bop the orthons over the head. 5 seconds and done.

Not that I dont like casters, its just for some reason I've had a hard time finding them to join. I would gather its b/c they feel useless in the content. Cant Finger reliabley, cant shoot off a huge AoE w/o grabbing the attention of 5-6 devils. Fog is currently broken, and web isnt doing great either. The most common practice I've seen is to run around the skirts of battle and dance mobs.

[Pyromaniac]

Well after a few more days, I've seen only a handful of useful spells in the new mod. And other guildees are starting to figure out that arcane casters (aka buffbots/cc) aren't nearly as fun to play in mod 9.

Now the Tower lfm's read "looking for caster", hoping we get one of you guys who love to play their casters in mod 9. The only slot almost as hard to find is bard, and its not even close...

[Pyromaniac]

But to say they aren't useful is just BS. Sorry.

You asked why I wouldn't want a caster, I gave you the reason. My caster is now my last option of character to play in the new raid, as it is for a lot of players. So when the choice is to take a non-caster guildee over a pug caster - I'd run with no caster at all. Bard for the win.

Useful - can be, Necessary - no, Desireable to play - no.

[Vordax]

You asked why I wouldn't want a caster, I gave you the reason. My caster is now my last option of character to play in the new raid, as it is for a lot of players. So when the choice is to take a non-caster guildee over a pug caster - I'd run with no caster at all. Bard for the win.

Useful - can be, Necessary - no, Desireable to play - no.

My 2 casters have been shelved, used to be my first choice now its my last, one has 1 action point into 17 the other I just raised to 17th 2 days ago. On the other hand my ranger mix is capped at 20 and can solo every named in the battlefield without any issues. He is my new "sorc" now (i.e. fun to play character).

Vordax

[bandyman1]

You asked why I wouldn't want a caster, I gave you the reason. My caster is now my last option of character to play in the new raid, as it is for a lot of players. So when the choice is to take a non-caster guildee over a pug caster - I'd run with no caster at all. Bard for the win.

Useful - can be, Necessary - no, Desireable to play - no.

But you didn't give me a reason. It basicly boiled down to you didn't want to play yours, so that's why you wouldn't want one.

Spoilers be damned;

Web/Fog is the best CC currently in the game vs. multiple devils, provided you have high enough DCs. With a year to run the Shroud, Hound, and VoD, you shouldn't be having trouble in that department. If you are, then you might want to take another look at your caster. /shrugs

Part one: Fireshield+Protect+Resist. Basicly immune to the eles. And your Energy Drain + FOD drops them faster than ANY melee. Plus it allows your melees to concentrate on the Judge, where their focus should be, if you want to save the clerics resourses, and yourself time. Hounds? Energy Drain + FTS makes nice statues for your clerics to hide behind when the Devil decides to tele in for a surprise beatdown. Kind of nice when your recos go off for full on WFed tanks regardless of weather they're cursed or not too.

Part two: If you don't think that one to two casters spamming max/empowered FW, SRay, and DBF kills shadowfiends far more quickly and efficiently than any group of uber melees, than you and those you run with are gimped arcanes, or you have no clue what you're talking about. Take your pick . It's also absurdly easy to FW the stairs leading up to the platform ( A sure fire way to grab agro from any shadow fiends closing in on the party ), and kite the spawns while the clerics worry about keeping up the melees, who're also free to give the Pit fiend their undevided attention.

PS: Your clerics probably hate you .

Part three: Most parties aren't going for extra chests. Energy Drain + FTS the Orthos. Reconstruct any WFed. Makes for a nice controlled fight, and an easy win.


Like I said man;
Don't want to play your caster? Don't.
Don't think they're necessary? They aren't. But neither is a bard, barb, ranger, cleric, ect, ect.

[Pyromaniac]

But you didn't give me a reason. It basicly boiled down to you didn't want to play yours, so that's why you wouldn't want one.

Actually nobody in my full guild tower raid group wanted to play one...

[FluffyCalico]

Actually nobody in my full guild tower raid group wanted to play one...

Well I think you might be confusing 2 things also.

Melee are more gear dependant. Most people realise that. For that reason I took my melee out into the new area first. 1 of them is capped the others are at 18. They all have all the named loot out there they want short of the raid rings.

Next I took out my main cleric and have gotten it everyting except the bauble.

While I work on getting it the baubble and my other melees to 20 I am just now starting to run my casters out there. Its not that I like them less its that I was afriad the loot drop rate would be nerfed soon and my melee needed specific named items out there.

[winsom]

My wizard's first impression of the new battleground content was: Are monsters immune to All Control now ?!

It was not fun to see tieflings in Weapon Shipment seemingly immune to Fog slowdown and Dancing Ball spells. Does everything have freedom of movement and immune to mental control these days?

How boring it will be if my best Control is heightened Web, the old 2nd level spell.

DC 34 spells used to be worth something, at least if Fort wasnt landing well I would switch to Will saves and do fine. Now it seems that only Reflex saves are working well, or I have to use No Save spells. That is very limiting and boring. But I'm trying to see it as a challenge. Then again I've mostly been playing my bard. Hmmm !

Hopefully my first impression with Weapon Shipment's super-tieflings on NORMAL is not representative of all the new content.

I've been playing my bard/rogue a lot more. Almost 19th. Buffing and Healing is always useful and her Fascinate song is actually the best control I've seen in there.. Perhaps the "bard is just better" situation is why my wizard only recently got enough exp to get within reach of 18th, a full level behind my bard.

[smatt]

You asked why I wouldn't want a caster, I gave you the reason. My caster is now my last option of character to play in the new raid, as it is for a lot of players. So when the choice is to take a non-caster guildee over a pug caster - I'd run with no caster at all. Bard for the win.

Useful - can be, Necessary - no, Desireable to play - no.

I think your attitude might change when the first bug fix comes along.....

[Shade]

I think it might be true that poorly equiped or just poorly played casters are dead may be true.

But ones that know what there at, are just as effective as ever.

Just did Sins of Attrition hard the other night on my sorc, lvl19.

Group was ranger, fighter, fighter, paladin, cleric, me - drow sorc.

At first I was assuming my kill spells wouldnt work well, so I just CC'd the first few fights.. Was able to web almost everything.

About the third fight I tried a wail of the banshee.. I killed 4 mobs at once. Was like wow..

After that, I still did a web in every fight, but after that I casted tons of wails..

Ended up with about 70 kills, more then everyone else in the group except the paladin who was slightly ahead, he was a well equiped lvl20 KoTC DPS build tho.

I think now at 20, with my new DC40 wail of the banshee, if I go on normal.. No melee could come close to my killing speed.

Even on elite I can kill about 1 outa 4 with wail.. So long as I cast it with 4+ mobs around, its a very effecient spell.

[Samadhi]

The lack of reading comprehension skills of some players had me abandoning this thread for a bit, but I thought I would pop back in since it is still alive. Welcome to the forums

Casters are not dead, despite my initial supposition. Just wizards are (and those without max DC's). Most of my initial thoughts in this thread were based off playing my wizard, since due to spell versatility, he was the easy choice to take into new content first. The lack of spells sticking made him obsolete to really accomplish much. Since then, I have run both my sorcs more through the new stuff (one conjuration spec'd and one enchantment spec'd).

The conjuration spec'd sorc is rocking. Web + Trap the Soul => Win. However, the wizard would not be able to accomplish as much as the sorc. Where this sorc used to only need one really awesome web to hold mobs, now I typically would want 3-4 if I want them all to stick. The sorc mana pool therefore becomes more relevant - and wizard "versatility" is left behind since I'm primarily only using a couple spells (those I'm focused in) anyway.

The enchantment sorc is lagging behind a little bit. Mass hold monster is not the cure-all I thought it would be, although mass charm monster isn't too bad, it doesn't last long. I've actually found myself nuking a bit more as well. Traditionally, I always preferred more CC spec'd sorcs to nuker builds, but the lower HP in some of the new stuff does make some old school AOE's useful again.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Only got to page three on this and got bored.

I've been working on my main char mostly, but couldn't get on to Thelanis the other day, so I logged onto Argo and decided to give my CC Sorc a run at the new content.

Wow!
I was disappointed.

Now, she's an Elf, not a Drow. No Shroud item. No +3 tomes. I think she has only a 32 Cha.
But she's got both Enchantment feats, both Spell Pen feats and all the spell pen enhancments.

And I think I can only get spells to land if they roll a 1 on their saves.....or so it seems.

Well, their might be a couple ways to improve that, and when I make 18+ I'll have 9th lvl spells to heighten up to.

Ok, so I've still got Otto's. Cool. (spell pen has not felt like a real problem to me, it's the saves)
I go into a quest and find out that those cleaving/wirlwinding Orthons and my squishy butt are not mixing well at all.
I died three times in the first ten min of the dungeon (maybe the fist five min).

Well, I didn't have any stoneskin wands at the time, and was too impatient to make sure I was displaced before closing to range.
Anyway, I'm sure I can find a few tactics to cope with this.

But wow. It's going to take some serious adjustment for me to feel useful again.

I've gone from being able to neuter an army in seconds to feeling like a useless cripple.

/cry