Casters Are Dead.

[smatt]

This is again the same old arguement we get every Mod... My particular preferred class isnt' useful anymore. All classes should be super-uber-duper all the time in every quest. I din't see asingle caster oriented player complaing at all back in Mod 4 when melees were boxes to be placed in front of doors..... Or in Mod 5 when a good number of partys consited of caster and clerics only.. With melees BEGGING to get in, or getting in by the grace of their guildies. It's just the way it is....

Now I can understand some early frustrations at this point... For people who prefer to play casters and also prefer to look at their names at the top or close to the top of the kill count. I'm not syaing that's bad, or critisizing that kind of player or person. BUT, that type of need or playstyle might find this new mods content lacking for them. If people have the idea that the onyl thing a party needs is for every toon to kill as much as possible and mesasures their worth to the party and quest on that basis alone, again they might be disappointed. And hey that's OK....
But again there's far more to a quest and a game than seeing your name up there above everybody elses. At least in my eyes there's far more that a player or particular toon can provide a party. To make the whole quest run smoother and easier for everybody.......

[Kalari]

I found that many mobs were susceptible to my waves of exhaustion/fatigue spells and many of the creatures out there take big hits from force spells. If you have an arcane that is specced for it and can protect themselves like my wf wizard you shouldnt have too much trouble in there. My elf wizard im kinda nervous but I am going to give her a shot in there to the only way to learn is to test. But I really think this area will be good for those of us who didnt go the elemental route for casting and finally see it as a good place to show off all the enhancement I put in force spells to give them oomph.

[Aeneas]

Have been surprised not to see any heightened glitterdust mixed in with all the webs the sorcs and wizzies have been dropping - when i run my rogue and i'm blinding everything with radiance and moving on to the next mob immediately it seems to keep the party alive. The majority of the damage (sins of attrition boss fight aside) seems to be from melee attacks - nobody is dying from acid rain and force missiles. A good quick cloud for concealment, a nice web, and a shiny glitterdust sound like a prescription ftw.

[joker965]

Currently the devil/demon slayer casters have not been ironed out. The "best" way is not known yet.

Also, i would look for multiple spells that can be added now that nuke a creatures SR or saves. Lower Resistance and such...

Everything changes when you go fight the demons and devils on their turf. This is how it always was for casters in PNP D&D. We need to find a new way.

[moorewr]

Seems like specing as a force damage nuker has promise, especially with chained missiles. It will require working with a party that is using DPS instead of vorpals or using stat weapons to be truly effective, but it seems like, on normal, that DPS is as good an option as any. You know, unless your vorpal dice are hot.

[Samadhi]

Smatt - did you read a single word typed in response to the first rant you posted?

[Aspenor]

I've seen will-based effects working somewhat well. However, I've been focusing on other things than playing my caster so I can't say with 100% certainty.

[tinyelvis]

I cannot believe so many casters are whining. The new high end content is not that tough. We new it was coming and it was easy to prepare for it. I did, and so did many others. Those who did not will need some days or weeks to respec their toons.

1. You are not going to land spells unless you bump up your DC's and even then you will not land all spells but only the ones you focused in. You need to know what spell to cast on which enemy mob (some have immunities you need to learn). It really is that simple. Jumping into the middle of a mob of Devils and Orthons and casting a Spell with a fort save like " Wail of the Banshee" is gonna get you no where but dead real fast. Just because this is not working for you does not mean the game is broke. I dont even carry "Wail of the Banshee". Focus your talent. If you have not done this then your caster probably will not perform well.

2. There are so many shrines and they are so close plus the mobs have lower hitpoints than say those in the subter, so you are able to toss out spells continually between shrines. I got rid of empower, because the extra firepower just is not necessary. If you cannot reliably kill a devil or Orthon (in 6 man party on normal) in 1 to 3 shots from your best damage spell then you need to re-evaluate your build or stop trying to kill things. AOE spells with saves are poor choices against most mobs. For example, use Polar ray and Force missiles ( or equivalent ) when battling. You will kill just as much as the best tank in your party. Against the end boss in the quests with a full mana bar you will do the most damage. In fact you can solo most of them. I have almost never thrown a firewall in any of the new content.

3. If you really want to be an aggressive sorc, then you need to cut the fat out of your build. Eliminate things that don't directly improve your combat spell casting ability in favor of things that do. This means setting up the best weapon sets, building good outfits, carrying good green steel items and raid loot that boost your important spell performances. Only choose feats that improve your offensive spell casting ability.

4. Decide to either use CC spells to help the melee or kill mobs along side them. You cannot do both. You also cannot act as a buffing machine and expect to have enough mana to perform offensively. Besides, with the dynamics of the new content, few people need many buffs.

It is my opinion that if your performance is mediocre to poor in the high end content than that is a reflection of your play style or build. Because, I see casters performing very well all the time. Whine all you want. At some point you will group with a caster who performs well and you will eat your words. Copy what he does.

[foxx]

CC, Acid Fog, Sleet, Energy Drain / Hold / Stone/ Max Emp Chain Miss / Otto irresistible dance.

This so far working out for me.

so far the groups with a solid caster have done better then the ones with out. dunno
maybe it's a perspective thing .

[smatt]

Smatt - did you read a single word typed in response to the first rant you posted?

Yes I did Sam, and what I said wasn't a rant at all, YOU were the one having a tizzy fit rant.... What I said wasn't an attack, it wasn't an insult at all. What I said was centered around looking at the reality (In a fantasy based game yet) of what and how Turbine could move forward in thsi game, creating a more diffuclt enviroment. If you feel worthless on your casters, it may very well be the case that in your preferred playstyle that you are now. The game progresses, classes have different effective uses in different quests and mods. That's the way the game is and has been from day 1. That's they way PnP D&D has been from day one.... Turbine has made the mistake too many times of over/under powering particular classes in particular Mods from day one as well. Then when they have to back-up and swing the nerf bat, or design around their past mistakes, it invaribly leads to this. It id in Mod 3, it did in Mod 4, Mod 5, Mod 6, Mod 7, Mod 8.... And will likely conitnue in the next Mod as well.

Casters have now gotten use to having plenty of mana to burn in quests... That's not the case now, even with max SP/DC sorcys... Part of the that has to do with not leaving the quest in our new found quest for XP again, and part has to do with the increased saves of the mobs, which are more inline with player saves now it seems.

But I think making a huge deal out of before the level capping and re-twinking is going a bit overboard. It's not THAT bad.... But the days of the Sorcy nukefest are over it appears.... If that bothers you than nothing anybody can say will change it for you. My expectations I guess are a bit lower than yours. I don't know, I more or less expected what was coming as just the way it would be, that if Turbine is to increase the difficulty of the game, they would have to increase the DC's required to break the insta-kill/nuking barrier. And that in the new high level quests on elite, that simply wouldn't be an option. And the fact is at least righ tnow casters have to consider their man use carefully, instead of just blowing it on one fight....

Again, I think you're jumping the gun on your projections of how things will be when people settle into the new content, new builds, new twinking.... As well as what the most effective rolls are for each member of a party, in a particular quest. I mean what I read from your posts, If I[m reading htem righ tis that you want to be able to jsut insta kill everything, or have your spells work all the time.. Toss a heightened web= insta-death for all mobs that happen to encounter it... Fingers work 75-100% of the time.... Thsoe days are gone.... Time for some thought, some teamwork, and for the other classes to have somekidn of a significant roll again, outside of the couple of raids of recent MOd (IE Shroud, Hound, VoD) as well as the nuker casters.

[smatt]

so far the groups with a solid caster have done better then the ones with out. dunno
maybe it's a perspective thing .

Darn it..... I'm going to agree... I had a HORRIBLE couple of runs with a particular caster the other day. And then the runs I've had with solid casters have gone very smoothly.... I play a barely competant caster and the runs we're still smooth. A well played caster, with a well thought out game plan is a big help. Just not what it was in previous content.. Differrent quests, different roles....

[tinyelvis]

so far the groups with a solid caster have done better then the ones with out. dunno
maybe it's a perspective thing .

I also agree with this statement. In fact, in general, my current party setup of choice is

2 casters (one DPS and one CC )
2 Cleric/Battle Clerics (since mob damage is low, both clerics are expected to pitch in from time to time)
2 Other

Clerics call out their blade barriers. Everyone stays together. Mobs are dealt with a little at a time. Everyone is expected to be as self sufficient as possible.

[smatt]

I also agree with this statement. In fact, in general, my current party setup of choice is

2 casters (one DPS and one CC )
2 Cleric/Battle Clerics (since mob damage is low, both clerics are expected to pitch in from time to time)
2 Other

Clerics call out their blade barriers. Everyone stays together. Mobs are dealt with a little at a time. Everyone is expected to be as self sufficient as possible.

And there it is to some degree, although I've also seen good runs with 1 caster and 1 cleric, mana can get tight IF the casters are careless and don't let the melees do their jobs, which is to be the main killing machines. But I think once toons are capped, this may rotate back to the casters a bit more, with more availble mana to blow through. It's pretty clear though, that melees will carry things a lot more in this content. No doubt about it.....

[Samadhi]

Not worth the breath.

[Pyromaniac]

Not worth the breath.

Any time there are caster issues, there tend to be the same pro-melees who say casters are overpowered. It really suggests there may be an issue here because there isn't as much discussion of casters being overpowered as there used to in these types of threads.

I'll put it this way, doing the new raid today we had to say 'ok guys, who can bring a caster' - because nobody really wanted to that much. One is more than enough for the new raid as well.

Its not the end of the world, I'm just considering shortening my bench of toons and not playing the sorc.

[smatt]

Not worth the breath.

Dude as I said in my PM, I'm not having a go at you at all. I simply disagree with your evaluation that casters are worthless or next to worthelss in the new content. I see them as more than just nuke bots that must be superior, you don't.....

Any time there are caster issues, there tend to be the same pro-melees who say casters are overpowered. It really suggests there may be an issue here because there isn't as much discussion of casters being overpowered as there used to in these types of threads.

Not in the least, you seem to have this idea it's pro-melee pro-caster.... I think it has more to do with ones attitude and opinions on what classes roles are through-out the game. Sure if your playstyle dictates being able to look at something dead... Well then you might hae major issues, just as thye super-duper WoP only crowd was with the WoP nerf. This desperation to be the greatest at everything, well that's what will lead to a brick wall.

The Mod is new barely anybody is capped, nobody has figured out realyl good and well thought through tactics in the quests yet. It's way to early to cry "Casters are dead". Good players will find rolls for their toons in each and every quest, some will be key to a quest, some will be just like a melee was in say GoP or 90% of Giant hold, or maybe Dust.... Nothing.... You can't have everything all the time....

To add, I haven't as of yet paid a lot of attention to what the DC's are on the various mobs, how many levels are my level drains hitting for, and exactly how that is affecting my DC spells.

But I still think it's too early to write things off, perhaps it is time ot play other classes a bit mroe than casters, perhaps not.....

[Maegin]

So far, barding has not been changed as far as a caster is concerned. I did find that a good glitterdust was good enough here and there, and im just glad that the old facinate standby still works, as opposed to last mod.

And arn't all the mobs under greater hero anyways? not to mention a couple of lvls higher than us, so it makes sense that not all of our spells land a lot. Would you rather have it be like the vale again? (rehtorical comment btw)

[bobbryan2]

Dude as I said in my PM, I'm not having a go at you at all. I simply disagree with your evaluation that casters are worthless or next to worthelss in the new content. I see them as more than just nuke bots that must be superior, you don't.....

And see.. I play most everything: clerics, bards, lots of melees, a single caster. The falloff in Mod 9 for a caster is much much more than any other class.

This wouldn't be that bad, except for the fact that casters have generally been falling for the last 4 mods.

It just gets tiresome.

It doesn't make much nevermind to me. I'll just play a melee. The HP totals out there are so low now that being a melee has never been better. Damage taken is high, so you'll want a caster to throw down CC buffs... but that isn't fun, so I'll let some other caster do it.

[Vordax]

And see.. I play most everything: clerics, bards, lots of melees, a single caster. The falloff in Mod 9 for a caster is much much more than any other class.

This wouldn't be that bad, except for the fact that casters have generally been falling for the last 4 mods.

It just gets tiresome.

It doesn't make much nevermind to me. I'll just play a melee. The HP totals out there are so low now that being a melee has never been better. Damage taken is high, so you'll want a caster to throw down CC buffs... but that isn't fun, so I'll let some other caster do it.

QFT, playing my melees and clerics, shelving my casters.

Vordax

[Kriogen]

The problem with DDO is that there is no mana regeneration. Mana is limited, sword is perpetum mobile, runs 24/7, monsters are designed for "sword".

I think devs want to fix this with "at will spells" (FvS capstone like?) and etheral wands (there is a small change in this mode how you can "fire" wands). I also read somewhere that those wands could be somehow boosted based on user level (or something like that).

Question: how much DPS would be max+emp Magic Missile if speced for force damage?