Casters Are Dead.

[Hendrik]

I'm debating switching from Illusion focus to Necromancy (Fear (-2 saves) + Symbol of Pain (-4 saves) + Waves of Exhaustion (-3 str save) + Web, Contagion (maybe, for bosses)) or Enchantment (Mind Fog, (Mass) Hold/Charm, Dancing Ball, Symbol of Stunning).

Also worth considering is Glitterdust, it has a Will save and isn't subject to SR.

I suspect it'll be a few days/weeks of respeccing before I play my sorc.

I have been working on that myself. Glad I have and NEVER going back.

Enchantment/Compulsion is NOT your friend in the new area/quest.

[Demonfire]

Most of us are still level 17-18!
When everybody will be 20 with top gear plus the knowledge of new content under the belt we all gonna remember these first wave of paranoia/hysteria as bad souvenirs!

But so far i've ran a couple new contents with some casters who where just as solid as ever... just need to change tactics/spells/gears/feat/enhancements / whatever... and everything will be fine!

Of course casual "caster/cleric" players will have the wake-up call of their live with new content and i've already warned some of my guildy that it's about time to have that quicken on their cleric or imp. spell pen. on that caster!

Anyway.. long story short in 1-2 month we all gonna complain about how easy it is and howTurbine should try to balance "nerf" casters!

[Dexxaan]

Seriously. I hope I am wrong, really really wrong, and am missing something key. But, at the moment, casters seem to be absolutely useless in the majority of the new content.

A spell with a DC? Even on normal it is landing less than 50% of the time. No, I'm not capped yet, but nor am I seeing anything in the loot tables to significantly change this the way the Napkin did either. Maybe +1 from a better tome and +1 from a leveling point to bump up 1 DC? That is not going to make a difference when on normal nothing is sticking. Please note, I'm not talking about trailing to Wail everything by any means. I'm specifically referring to the most likely spells to stick (hold, web, etc). The only CC spell we have found to really make a noticeable difference is actually sleet storm.

So what does that leave - nuking? Mildly beneficial - but another well equipped melee is going to be more reliable DPS most of the times it counts. Buffing? I'll run my bards - theirs are better - and they can DPS/heal as well.

Please tell me how I am wrong so that I can adjust my strategies accordingly. Thanks.

IF you are right........ then boo hoo roll a tank or adapt.

Casters have hade Nuclear Warhead Poofing abilities for as long as Mod 7 and 8. Did us Tanks (Tank Players) whine and complain? A little...but only due to the kills being fingered everytime we geared our uber DPS weapon of anything bane only to watch a PK, Red Finger or Scorching - Ice Ray POOF mobs left & right.

Frustrating? a bit. Will you get ove it? Depends on your adaptability.

Will you eventually be able to solo the battlefields of another plane? I truly hope not.


BTW - The Turbine store is stocked up on Crackers and Cheese......

[Harncw]

People 'have' gotten to level 20. Maxed their casting stat. Gotten spell focus feats. (gtr spell focus has been out since the beginning of the game.)

You keep playing this, 'wait and see card.' I'm just saying that's unnecessary considering how long this content has been available.

Maybe I'm being niave but I dont think casters are dead yet.
I plan on waiting and seeing.

[EKKM]

I was only in the new explorer area with my cleric for a about 10 minutes but I did notice a significant difference from the vale.

Destruct only worked after an energy drain, alot of mobs with evasion so BB wasnt as effective, command was a waste of spell points.

Not sure if it is good or bad yet though. I do need to eat a wis tome still (50 favour away) and dont have an exceptional wis items yet, but other than thatit is maxed. Level 18 feat will almost definitely be heighten.

[Kiranselie]

I dont know if its been mentioned, couldnt bring myself to read every post of this, but in the new area, we're not the only ones that benefit from a constant GH effect.

So you take mobs that are already a PITA for casters, the add a few levels to their CR, then add on an additional +4 to their saves, and yeah, your not going to be able to shine as the "best" in the party. I've flagged my sorc, and other than having to toss an evervate before I fts i havent really noticed that much of a difference. Web was an iffy spell previously, and its still kinda iffy. I stopped trying to be an instakill machine waaaaaay back when mod 7 dropped.

If I've learned anything in the almost 3 years of playing this game is that everything is cyclic, and we'll see another mod down the road that elevates casters back to the position they were in mod 5, then we'll see another mod that does what mod 6 did to bring a lil bit of balance back, and so on and so forth.

No, I dont think casters are dead, I just think thinking outside the box might be tho.

[Samadhi]

Wow this thread got some responses - let's see if I can respond to all of the general points:

1) To the "wait and see" crowd: As stated, I have not seen anyone find any loot to help the DC's in our spells. That means that a caster that has level 9 spells probably is at most 1 DC below their max potential. This is why wait and see is irrelevant - because our DC's won't be going up significantly as we progress to cap. (An extra +1 for wizards; maybe they will finally start to have an edge on sorcs in theory; but when we are talking about stuff not sticking ON NORM... I see no point in bringing a caster on Elite)

2) To the "what you think caster's should pwn everything again" crowd: Let me reiterate in case the point was missed. No, I do not think that. However, when even my weakest spells (web for example, which works for a moment, but they break it too quick to matter). It's a balance issue. This leads to...

3) A_D/Borr0's points on balancing: My view of the ideal caster::melee ratio was what they did in MOD 3. This was before the change to mana that bumped our pools up significantly if you all recall. Back then, a smart caster could use CC sparingly but intelligently to make things significantly easier for the melee/cleric. However, there was not even a realm of possibility that the caster would have enough mana to nuke their way through. The difference from here to now is - now the caster's CC is not making enough of a difference - although the dungeons are big enough that even with "auto-landing" of spells I can't FOD my way through. It makes more sense to get a bard for haste/buffs and leave the caster at home unless something is done about DC's vs. Saves.

4) To Tinyelvis: Once again, I have had no issues with failing saves. Your argument is completely irrelevant. As everyone else responding has pretty easily been able to grasp - the issue is with DC's.

5) To the "enervate it first" crowd: Spending close to 100 mana to take down 1 mob can be very useful in certain situations (the Genesis lever throwing example). However, this is not a mana efficient strategy for the new end game as a whole.

6) Someone suggested Trap the Soul: Haven't given this a shot yet; I will. However, crowd control is my biggest concern right now, not instadeath.

There are also several posters saying that "content has been easy" without really being specific. My guess is that your melees were so effective at killing things that it didn't matter that your spells were kind of pointless. Maybe I need better melees . I played a LOT the past two days, and cannot specifically recall which melees I was running with when I was flagging my wizard; but when I was flagging one of my bards yesterday I had a decent bit of group fluctuation and definitely noticed that melees were making a huge difference on overall quest ease (not surprisingly). However, I also noticed my bard could accomplish 95%+ of what my caster was able to contribute and a good bit besides. So why bring a caster? Just cause you can't find a bard?

[Strakeln]

Might relate to having perma-GH.

[lunaticcat]

Seriously. I hope I am wrong, really really wrong, and am missing something key. But, at the moment, casters seem to be absolutely useless in the majority of the new content.

A spell with a DC? Even on normal it is landing less than 50% of the time. No, I'm not capped yet, but nor am I seeing anything in the loot tables to significantly change this the way the Napkin did either. Maybe +1 from a better tome and +1 from a leveling point to bump up 1 DC? That is not going to make a difference when on normal nothing is sticking. Please note, I'm not talking about trailing to Wail everything by any means. I'm specifically referring to the most likely spells to stick (hold, web, etc). The only CC spell we have found to really make a noticeable difference is actually sleet storm.

So what does that leave - nuking? Mildly beneficial - but another well equipped melee is going to be more reliable DPS most of the times it counts. Buffing? I'll run my bards - theirs are better - and they can DPS/heal as well.

Please tell me how I am wrong so that I can adjust my strategies accordingly. Thanks.

I hate to say it but unless you are a high con WF build, casters are going to be tough in the new area. I've taken mine in, and several other solid builds that can go anywhere else with ease... None of them have had any success at all. Spell's bounced off of the monsters with the only affect is drawing agro and getting killed. Clouds didnt slow, PK/FOD's were useless and the new spells just aren't effective (wail of the banshee being centered on a caster likea blade barrier is a BAD thing)

I still have a lot of work to do with my casters out there, but so far, the results haven't been very good.

[Sohryu]

6) Someone suggested Trap the Soul: Haven't given this a shot yet; I will. However, crowd control is my biggest concern right now, not instadeath.

Yay, finally someone heard me, I've suggested this in a couple threads but always kinda felt like the hobo in the corner of the room holding a cardboard sign that said "TtS FTW".

And if you want crowd control, get a Virtuoso Bard. 'Nuff said.

*shuffles back to her corner*

As a afterthought, perhaps this is the Mod that the "cream will rise to the top" so to say concerning the caster class...the people who think it's nothing but nuking will give up on the class and the ones that are able to adapt will stick around.

[Samadhi]

Yay, finally someone heard me, I've suggested this in a couple threads but always kinda felt like the hobo in the corner of the room holding a cardboard sign that said "TtS FTW".

And if you want crowd control, get a Virtuoso Bard. 'Nuff said.

*shuffles back to her corner*

Lol, I bought the components for the version that was too low HD to work out there, but was too anxious to get questing to crunch them for an hour before going out. I'll do it today

Interesting about the Virtuoso Bard - that I hadn't gotten a chance to try out yet either. Giving me all kinds of projects for the day!!

[Angelus_dead]

Change Tactics.
Improve Teamwork.
Energy Drain.

That very interestingly brings up a point I thought about mentioning earlier, but didn't: One could say "Casters don't stack with melee", in a way.

To an extent players have been aware of this and complained of this in the past: there's the old cry "Hey, you stole my kill with a Finger!". In that case, the melee person had been using his abilities (and maybe resources) attacking a monster by removing most of its hitpoints, but then a caster comes in and uses his own resources to kill it in a way that hitpoints are irrelevant. When that happens, both players can blame the other for making a mistake. The melee says "You just wasted spellpoints on something that was about to die", while the caster says "You risked your hitpoints for something I was going to kill safely". But that's an old known issue however.

But the problem amplifies when monsters have high enough saves to obligate Energy Drain, like you suggested. In this scenario it is a two-step process for a caster to kill a mob, so it can be viewed as a progress bar towards the defeat of the monster (1. Drain 2. Finger/FOD), just like hitpoints are. So what we have now are melee and casters using two separate progress measurements to indicate how close they are to killing a mob, and they don't really relate to each other. Whichever progress completes first kills the enemy, and means the other one was basically pointless (except that the Drain reduced the mob's DPS a little for a short time)

So it's trending towards a division, where casters in a party stack with each other by throwing debuffs that cause mobs to fail save-or-lose spells, and melee stack because they inflict numerically-additive hitpoint damage. But if a caster wants his attacks to stack with melee then he can't use the Drain+Die approach, and instead has to go to an entirely different list of DPS spells, which are probably less effective or he would have been using them already.

I say "trends" above because this kind of thing isn't completely clear-cut, and there are many exceptions and complications. But the tendency towards caster and melee non-stacking is there.

[Angelus_dead]

1) To the "wait and see" crowd: As stated, I have not seen anyone find any loot to help the DC's in our spells. That means that a caster that has level 9 spells probably is at most 1 DC below their max potential.

Lol maybe Spellsinger III will give you another +2 DC.

(If I was a designer, I'd be looking for ways to give casters an accumulating DC buff if a monster had just resisted your spell, or an enhancement to give you from +1 to +4 DC according to how far down the enemy's hitpoints are, and other weird ideas)

[Mindspat]

Seriously. I hope I am wrong, really really wrong, and am missing something key. But, at the moment, casters seem to be absolutely useless in the majority of the new content.

Please tell me how I am wrong so that I can adjust my strategies accordingly. Thanks.

You're not mistaken.

Caster's need a 38-40 int/cha stat to be as functionable as they were in the older content. If you have a 28 pt build you're probably never going to feel adequet unless your playtime consists of being a Haste Bot. The only effective use of a caster is to spam level draining spells and the 40-55 points of base dmg delt by most devils or orthons means you're going to have issues if the character's hitpoints are too low.

The new content caters to one playstyle and one only, dps. Don't even think about claiming your caster is DPS 'cs if you do then you either don't understand what the term means or you're going through multitudes of mnemonics. If you're using spell dmg it's not dps, it's burst dmg.

Caster's really don't have much if any function in the content. You could probably use one for Haste, but you would be better off with a Bard which provides a lot more advantages.

There are a few areas where Sorc/Wiz's shine but it's going to take a lot of practice and possibly a few respec's to get it working right.

I think the greatest reason why casters feel completely and virtually entirely useless in the new content is 'cs most, if not all, of us have become used to the weaker environments we've been playing in over the last year. The fact is DC's are extremely high to the point that it requires a different approach then what worked elsewhere. think - we're fighting them on their grounds!

Casters needs serious improvements and the content prooves that Melee DPS is fine whereas sustained spell dmg is not. Maybe Eladrin will figure out something cool that to give a little more umpf. Arcane roles in DDO are somewhat lacking at this point.

I expect ommission of Arcane from LFM's once more poeple have played through the content. A bard does everything better, and it's probably time to make one...

[Mindspat]

Casters: Someone has to cast haste, and heal the WF!

A Bard will do it better.

I think Bards got the most love out of this mod. Afterall, they took the place of an Arcane caster in the new content.

[Angelus_dead]

I expect ommission of Arcane from LFM's once more poeple have played through the content. A bard does everything better, and it's probably time to make one...

So how do you reply to all the bards who say:
Boo hoo hoo, I'm helpless, I got nuthin.
I can't Web, Fog, Drain, or Stone. Of course I have no FW or Polar Ray. The module gave me no new spells, and these new mobs are mostly immune to charm even.

[unionyes]

I had some premonition that melee were going to come into their own again this mod.

The Shroud sort of hit casters in the gonads a bit. It was easy to get into a group for flagging runs as a caster, but a lot harder to get into the actual Shroud, as most people didn't feel the need for more than one or two casters.

I had a barbarian sitting at level 10, so I leveled him up to 15 and Shroud flagged him. I was thinking hard about deleting my level 10 Warchanter, but decided to wait until the mod to see what the lay of the land would be. I am glad that I leveled up my Barbarian and kept my Bard.

I now will be parking my sorcerer, using him mostly for vail and desert runs and helping guildies get flagged for Shroud and Reaver raids. I will be focusing most of my play time leveling up my Barbarian, Bard, and my level 9 Pally that I use mostly for solo play, since it seems that casters are not overly useful in the new content.

Casters aren't dead, yet, but they are definitely not all they once were in terms of killing power.

[Vordax]

I had some premonition that melee were going to come into their own again this mod.

The Shroud sort of hit casters in the gonads a bit. It was easy to get into a group for flagging runs as a caster, but a lot harder to get into the actual Shroud, as most people didn't feel the need for more than one or two casters.

I had a barbarian sitting at level 10, so I leveled him up to 15 and Shroud flagged him. I was thinking hard about deleting my level 10 Warchanter, but decided to wait until the mod to see what the lay of the land would be. I am glad that I leveled up my Barbarian and kept my Bard.

I now will be parking my sorcerer, using him mostly for vail and desert runs and helping guildies get flagged for Shroud and Reaver raids. I will be focusing most of my play time leveling up my Barbarian, Bard, and my level 9 Pally that I use mostly for solo play, since it seems that casters are not overly useful in the new content.

Casters aren't dead, yet, but they are definitely not all they once were in terms of killing power.

Parking 2 of my casters also, don't really want to be a CC/buff bot. Plus a bard will do it better. Songs will help the melees kill the trash faster, they can haste, displace and GH too. No need for a caster.

Vordax

[Salkanor]

....we ran a bunch of the new quests on elite yesterday.
Heightened webs still played a big role as far as cc goes.

[Kalari]

Actually ive been in there with my wizard did a quest or two cc is still viable in that area. Sure nukers may have problems due to SR and the like. But those of us who use cc and force will not have as much trouble as I thought. My force missles along with debuffs and crowd control helped make things go smoother. Since I do not have a sorc not sure how it is on that end. But I think any caster who regularly raids will find their place in the new content.