Attack Speed Normalization Proposal

[Xionanx]

Basis for proposed changes: Borror0's suggested change quoted by Eladrin My suggestion in here and My suggestion here

Currently DDO suffers from an imbalance in attack speed across weapon styles and base attack bonus progression. As a person can see referencing Cforce's Attack Speed Index almost every weapon style in the game has a different attack speed. A person can also see that progression from BAB 14 to 15 actually results in a loss of attack speed, an issue players have long voice thier dissatisfaction over.

Under my proposed system, which I will outline below, players will have an equal attack speed across ALL weapon styles. Players will also recieve a gradual attack speed increase as they level, resulting in an overall gain in speed as a result of leveling rather then a loss.

The proposed changes are as follows:

1. Base all combat on a 4 Swing chain - From level 1 to 20 all characters will have a 4 swing chain regardless of combat style.
2. The 4 Swing chain across all styles should complete in exactly the same amount of time; a "base" time of 3 seconds.
3. Increasing BAB will grant a 1.25% increase in attack speed per point of BAB for a net attack speed increase of 25% at BAB 20.
4. The BAB Speed Increase will be counted as Inherent in relation to other attack speed increases allowing them to stack.
5. Two Weapon Fighting will grant a 25% attack speed increase counted as "Circumstance"
6. The Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats will both grant a stacking 25% attack speed increase counted as "Feat"
7. The available attack speed increases would then be: Enhancement (Haste/Items), Insight (Prestige/Class/Items), Inherent (BAB), Circumstance (TWF Style), Feat (ITWF/GTWF)

Upon first reading the above changes I expect the initial reaction to be that those changes would make players overpowered because of all the different attack speed increases. However once you look at the actual numerical effects you'll see this serves to reduce the power of the TWF styles while at the same time increasing the power of the other styles. Allow me to demonstrate how this would play out under my proposals.

A character with 0 BAB wielding a One Handed or Two Handed weapon would recieve exactly 80 Attacks per minute. 4 Attacks Per 3 Seconds, 60 Seconds in a Minute, 20 "blocks" of 3 seconds, 20 x 4 = 80 Attacks Per minute.

As a character's BAB increases in 1.25% increments, thier overall attacks per minute Increase:
BAB 0 = 80 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 9 = 89 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 14 = 94 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 16 = 96 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 20 = 100 Attacks Per Minute

Compared to the current progression that a One Handed or Two Handed user would see:
BAB 0 = 78 Attacks Per Minute One Handed
BAB 9 = 102 Attacks Per Minute One Handed
BAB 14 = 93 Attacks Per Minute One Handed
BAB 16 = 89 Attacks Per Minute One Handed

BAB 0 = 60 to 83 Depending on Weapon
BAB 9 = 86 to 96 Depending on Weapon
BAB 14 = 84 to 92 Depending on Weapon
BAB 16 = 76 to 84 Depending on Weapon

Clearly under my proposed changes One Handed and Two Handed attackers at being helped and given a boost as their BAB increases rather then having thier attack speed REDUCED as thier BAB increases.

Now lets see how my changes effects Two Weapon Fighting: The simple act of equiping a second weapon under my proposed changes would grant a 25% Circumstance bonus in attack speed.

BAB 0 = 80 Main 20 Off Hand = 100 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 9 = 89 Main 20 Off Hand = 109 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 14 = 94 Main 20 Off Hand = 114 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 16 = 96 Main 20 Off Hand = 116 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 20 = 100 Main 20 Off Hand = 120 Attacks Per Minute

Compared to the Current:

BAB 0 = 85 Main 42 Off hand = 127 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 9 = 96 Main 32 Off hand = 128 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 14 = 88 Main 22 Off hand = 110 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 16 = 83 Main 33 Off hand = 116 Attacks Per Minute

Once again my Proposed changes even out the benefits of TWF across the characters BAB increase, while at the same time reducing the early gains. By adding Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting we see the following changes.

BAB 0 = 80 Main 20 Off Hand = 100 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 6 = 86 Main 40 Off Hand = 126 ITWF Attacks Per Minute
BAB 11 = 91 Main 60 Off Hand = 151 GTWF Attacks Per Minute
BAB 20 = 100 Main 60 Off Hand = 160 GTWF Attacks Per Minute

Compared to the Current:

BAB 0 = 85 Main 42 Off hand = 127 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 6 = 92 Main 61 Off hand = 153 ITWF Attacks Per Minute
BAB 11 = 91 Main 91 Off hand = 182 GTWF Attacks Per Minute
BAB 16 = 83 Main 83 Off hand = 166 GTWF Attacks Per Minute

Under my proposed changes you can see that the feats become less front loaded and the benefits even out better as the characters BAB increases. Also a characters total number of attacks is actually reduced to be more level appropriate thereby reducing the overall power of the TWF style of play. This will address some of the overpowered aspects of the current TWF implementation.

I would also suggest applying the same rules to Ranged combat with the following adjustments:

Use a 3 Shots per 3 Second Base, resulting in 60 Shots per minute at BaB 0.
Apply a 25% attack speed decrease to ranged combat while moving, resulting in 45 Shots per minute at BaB 0.
The feat "Shot on the Run" will negate the movement penalty.
The feat "Rapid Shot" will grant a 25% attack speed increase

This will Result in the following attack speeds for Ranged:
Standard
BAB 0 = 60
BAB 5 = 63
BAB 10 = 67
BAB 15 = 71
BAB 20 = 75

Rapid Shot
BAB 0 = 75
BAB 5 = 78
BAB 10 = 82
BAB 15 = 86
BAB 20 = 90

This will be a significant improvement over current ranged attack speeds, while at the same time maintaining other attack forms as faster overall. The attack speed penalty for moving will help combat a lot of the complaints of "Kiting" archers in Melee heavy groups, unless a player invests in the feats required to get Shot on the Run.

I welcome constructive feedback. However if you intend to reply, please state EXACTLY what it is you do or dont like about the system along with a proposed change.

[Lithic]

So why exactly do you think 2wf should only attack 1.75 times as fast as using a single weapon?

[EinarMal]

You do not address glancing blows and this has the potential with your numbers to greatly overpower THF compared to TWF which should be equal in terms of single target DPS.

Edit:
Where does unarmed combat fit into this, with and without the TWF feats.

Edit #2:
You need to address manyshot if you are increasing the rate of fire at ranged. Right now manyshot as it is is pretty overpowered for 20s bursts it just can't be used continually.

[Nyvn]

Interesting... Actually loosing DPS for leveling up has always struck me as wrong. I also like the improvements to archery. I think this is an issue where the devs don't want to touch until they get it perfect. They've already made steps in the right direction by changing all THF weapons to the same speed. Hopefully they'll continue down the path and quit "punishing" melee for increasing their BAB. This suggestion could be the way they accomplish that.

[Xionanx]

So why exactly do you think 2wf should only attack 1.75 times as fast as using a single weapon?

Balance for one, however if you want a better reason then that.

TWF Grants ONE additional off hand attack per chain
ITWF Grants TWO additional off hand attacks per chain
GTWF Grants THREE addtional off hand attacks per chain

Per PnP Rules a Character with BaB 20 would have a total of 5 attacks using a Single One Handed or Two Handed weapon. A Character with a BaB 20, Dual wielding with GTWF would have a total 8 Attacks!

5/8 = 62.5% or a 1.625 Increase in attack speed.

I personally think I am being generous in my proposed changed to TWF style. Turbine was overly generous.

[krud]

So why exactly do you think 2wf should only attack 1.75 times as fast as using a single weapon?

GTWF in d&d should give 4 offhand attacks per round. That would be 1.8 times more than a single weapon, so 1.75 isn't so far off.
edit .. er, what xionix said

My only question is how do you determine how many main vs offhand attacks? As it is now it is weighted toward main hand attacks until you get GTWF and reach bab15.

[EinarMal]

Balance for one, however if you want a better reason then that.

TWF Grants ONE additional off hand attack per chain
ITWF Grants TWO additional off hand attacks per chain
GTWF Grants THREE addtional off hand attacks per chain

Per PnP Rules a Character with BaB 20 would have a total of 5 attacks using a Single One Handed or Two Handed weapon. A Character with a BaB 20, Dual wielding with GTWF would have a total 8 Attacks!

5/8 = 62.5% or a 1.625 Increase in attack speed.

I personally think I am being generous in my proposed changed to TWF style. Turbine was overly generous.

You are off by one attack level 20 fighters get 4 attacks, with TWF you get 7

7/4 = 1.75

You seem to have some kind of THF agenda in your numbers, you should really try to be more objective.

Both styles require 3 feats, the way you have it setup is heavily biased towards THF with glancing blows.

[Xionanx]

You do not address glancing blows and this has the potential with your numbers to greatly overpower THF compared to TWF which should be equal in terms of single target DPS.

Edit:
Where does unarmed combat fit into this, with and without the TWF feats.

Edit #2:
You need to address manyshot if you are increasing the rate of fire at ranged. Right now manyshot as it is is pretty overpowered for 20s bursts it just can't be used continually.

The benefits of glancing blows is insignificant compared to the benefits of 60 additional attacks on a target. I personally feel that it didn't need to be addressed as each fighter style has certain advantages and disadvanteges that need to be maintainted.

Fighting with a one handed weapon while using a shield "should" result in a higher AC. So you are trading extra attacks for AC

Fighting with a Two handed weapon grants 1.5 times STR bonus and should result in greated damage per swing. You are trading AC for greater damage.

Fighting with Two weapons will result in a greater number of attacks while should result in more potential hits and therefore more damage. You are trading "some" AC and "big" damage numbers for quantitiy. It all evens out in the end.

Unarmed will fall squarely into the TWF category and be treated as such. A monk with Flurry of Blows, ITWF, and GTWF will have the exact same number of attacks as a Dual Wielding Character with the same feats. The benefit of Unarmed in this case will be full STR bonus on off hand which would server to alleviate some monk issues.

I did not address Manyshot for the same reason you state, for 20's manyshot is an aweseome feat. However it is still on a 2 minute timer and only serves to help archers "keep up" with damage other play styles. If you have leveled an archer to 16 you would understand why I suggested the changes to ranged combat as I did. Ranged combat need a boost for ALL classes across the board, and the changed I proposed would help every class with ranged combat while at the same time letting those who choose to specialize in ranged combat reach a level where they will be on par with other play style choices.

[MrCow]

Use a 3 Shots per 3 Second Base, resulting in 60 Shots per minute at BaB 0.
Apply a 25% attack speed decrease to ranged combat while moving, resulting in 45 Shots per minute at BaB 0.
The feat "Shot on the Run" will negate the movement penalty.
The feat "Rapid Shot" will grant a 25% attack speed increase

This will Result in the following attack speeds for Ranged:
Standard
BAB 0 = 60
BAB 5 = 63
BAB 10 = 67
BAB 15 = 71
BAB 20 = 75

Considering Repeating Crossbows have around +120% to +200% the firing speed (depending on BAB) of a bow or crossbow that could create a potentially insane rate of fire like so

Standard (assuming +150% of crossbow speed)
BAB 0 = 150
BAB 5 = 159
BAB 10 = 168
BAB 15 = 177
BAB 20 = 187

Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload (assuming +150% of crossbow speed)
BAB 0 = 225
BAB 5 = 238
BAB 10 = 252
BAB 15 = 265
BAB 20 = 280

Sure, the repeater lacks a lot of additional extra damage that normally gets applied from STR, but as an attack style that could get up to 2.8 bolts per 1-melee swing or 1.57 bolts per 2-melee swing on top of being a distance based attack, that is somewhat concerning (especially when you start considering damage modifiers like a rogue's sneak attack).

[EinarMal]

The benefits of glancing blows is insignificant compared to the benefits of 60 additional attacks on a target. I personally feel that it didn't need to be addressed as each fighter style has certain advantages and disadvanteges that need to be maintainted.

So this is way off. In PnP there are no such things as glancing blows, TWF and THF are balanced without consideration for glancing blows, that is why you get 2x PA and 1.5x strength bonus for a two handed weapon versus TWF 1x + .5x.

Since the number of attacks are not doubled (should be 1.75 as your numbers are off) THF benefits more from strength and power attack.

Glancing blows are not insignifcant, the can be as much as 30+ damage per glancing blow, and you would get what another how many of those per 4 swing animation?

That is a huge increase in damage over TWF if you are not careful.

[Xionanx]

You are off by one attack level 20 fighters get 4 attacks, with TWF you get 7

7/4 = 1.75

You seem to have some kind of THF agenda in your numbers, you should really try to be more objective.

Both styles require 3 feats, the way you have it setup is heavily biased towards THF with glancing blows.

A fighter starts with 1 Attack at level 1 and gains an additional attack at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 for a total of 5 attacks.

Please recheck you sources.

As far as a THF bias and or agenda, I can assure you I have none. Of the Two characters I play on a regular basis. One is a Wizard and the Other is a Monk. I have always disliked THF and have 0 THF characters.

I believe some people think glancing blows are more powerfull then they actually are.

[EinarMal]

A fighter starts with 1 Attack at level 1 and gains an additional attack at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 for a total of 5 attacks.

Please recheck you sources.

As far as a THF bias and or agenda, I can assure you I have none. Of the Two characters I play on a regular basis. One is a Wizard and the Other is a Monk. I have always disliked THF and have 0 THF characters.

I believe some people think glancing blows are more powerfull then they actually are.

There is no extra attack at BAB 20

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm,

[Lithic]

A fighter starts with 1 Attack at level 1 and gains an additional attack at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 for a total of 5 attacks.

Incorrect. In 3.5, you gain attacks at 0, 6, 11, 16 BAB. Only in DDO do you gain them at 0, 5, 10, 15, 20.

Please recheck you sources.

Ditto

In red.

[BlackSteel]

So this is way off. In PnP there are no such things as glancing blows, TWF and THF are balanced without consideration for glancing blows, that is why you get 2x PA and 1.5x strength bonus for a two handed weapon versus TWF 1x + .5x.
.

Not that I agree with the OP, but part of the balance you're referring to dealt alot with being able to determine how much power attack you wanted to use. In this game that is a static number, I cant very well increase my PA to -20/+40 the way that a TWF benefits from any other buff from simple virtue of having more attacks/min.

[EinarMal]

I believe some people think glancing blows are more powerfull then they actually are.

Honestly if you are going to propose changes to the combat system you need to do the math. It has nothing to do with what people *think*.

Glancing Blows 101:

Damage Calculation:
(Base damage + Bonus damage) / BAB Divisor

Base damage = your total damage
Bonus damage = 10 for THF, 20 for ITHF, 30 for GTHF, (and i assumed 40 for barbarian capstone, but no guarantees there)
BAB divisor = 5 for BAB1-10, 4 for BAB 11-15 and 3 for BAB 16+

So for the archon its is: (87 + 30) / 3 = 42

That is what a min/max build can hit with glancing blows. If you are twitching currently that would be every other attack, in your scheme you would be getting

100 Attacks
100 Glancing Blows?

You are telling me that 42 * (100/60) = +70 DPS is insignificant and not worth counting?

[EinarMal]

Not that I agree with the OP, but part of the balance you're referring to dealt alot with being able to determine how much power attack you wanted to use. In this game that is a static number, I cant very well increase my PA to -20/+40 the way that a TWF benefits from any other buff from simple virtue of having more attacks/min.

I am fine with that for everyone, I wish there were different levels of power attack like there should be. In some cases it would be nice to lower it especially for 3/4 BAB classes against certain higher AC targets which you should also be able to do.

[Xionanx]

Considering Repeating Crossbows have around +120% to +200% the firing speed (depending on BAB) of a bow or crossbow that could create a potentially insane rate of fire like so

Standard (assuming +150% of crossbow speed)
BAB 0 = 150
BAB 5 = 159
BAB 10 = 168
BAB 15 = 177
BAB 20 = 187

Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload (assuming +150% of crossbow speed)
BAB 0 = 225
BAB 5 = 238
BAB 10 = 252
BAB 15 = 265
BAB 20 = 280

Sure, the repeater lacks a lot of additional extra damage that normally gets applied from STR, but as an attack style that does 2.8 bolts per 1-melee swing or 1.57 bolts per 2-melee swing on top of being a distance based attack, that is somewhat concerning (especially when you start considering damage modifiers like a rogue's sneak attack).

Turbines implementation of Crossbows is questionable in the first place. As it stands now a Repeating crossbow user at level 16 with Both Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload recieves 120 shots per minute compared the a bow users 53.

If crossbows and reapeting crossbows were implemented "properly" using my proposed system you would see them function as this:

Crossbows recieve 1 Shot Per 3 Seconds
Repeating CrossBows 3 Shots Per 3 Seconds (just like a bow)

This would place repeating crossbows under the exact same speed as a longbow or shortbow user. While this would end up being a slower rate of fire then they currently get, it would overall balance them out.

[MrCow]

Repeating CrossBows 3 Shots Per 3 Seconds (just like a bow)

This would place repeating crossbows under the exact same speed as a longbow or shortbow user. While this would end up being a slower rate of fire then they currently get, it would overall balance them out.

I am curious... how does making something that requires a feat to use properly (Exotic Weaponry) and lacks extra features (able to add STR to damage) overall balance them out? That is akin to the problem of the light hammer being a 1d4 damage martial weapon which pales to the 1d6 damage simple weaponry light mace.

[Xionanx]

Honestly if you are going to propose changes to the combat system you need to do the math. It has nothing to do with what people *think*.

Glancing Blows 101:

Damage Calculation:
(Base damage + Bonus damage) / BAB Divisor

Base damage = your total damage
Bonus damage = 10 for THF, 20 for ITHF, 30 for GTHF, (and i assumed 40 for barbarian capstone, but no guarantees there)
BAB divisor = 5 for BAB1-10, 4 for BAB 11-15 and 3 for BAB 16+

So for the archon its is: (87 + 30) / 3 = 42

That is what a min/max build can hit with glancing blows. If you are twitching currently that would be every other attack, in your scheme you would be getting

100 Attacks
100 Glancing Blows?

You are telling me that 42 * (100/60) = +70 DPS is insignificant and not worth counting?

Please correct your math againg, as this is the second time you have used false infomation.

THF "Allows you to make glancing blows" but does not add ANY bonus damage
ITHF "Increased the damage of your glancing blows"
GTHF "Allows you to make additional glancing blows" but does not add ANY bonus damage.

So using your math you actually end up with:

Damage Calculation:
(Base damage + Bonus damage) / BAB Divisor

Base damage = 1d12 + (1.5xSTR Bonus) = 23-34 Damage assuming a STR of 40
Bonus damage = 10
BAB divisor = 5 for BAB1-10, 4 for BAB 11-15 and 3 for BAB 16+

So for the archon its is: (34 + 10) / 3 = 15 DMG on glancing blows.

So unless you can explain how you achieved a base damage of 87 not counting a "CRIT" .......

Its a tradeoff because you will not ALWAYS be fighting monsters in large groups, while someone with TWF will always benefit from TWF. A THF will not always get the benefit of glancing blows.

Both of the fighting styles have thier advantages and disadvantages.

[BlackSteel]

Please correct your math againg, as this is the second time you have used false infomation.

THF "Allows you to make glancing blows" but does not add ANY bonus damage
ITHF "Increased the damage of your glancing blows"
GTHF "Allows you to make additional glancing blows" but does not add ANY bonus damage.
.

while the feats dont say as much, each one will increase the damage done. Its a noticeable increase with each feat.

try it out in game instead of just going by the compendium. the thing is wrong or lacks details on more than one account

additionally glancing blows hit everything in range of your swing, the main target included. With viscous damage, a barbarian will average atleast 30 additional damage per swing from having the feats. (roughly 60 damage extra damage to a single target every other attack)