THF - Barbarian or Fighter

[Consumer]

Incorrect, the Barb does over 10% more damage over a 30 sec time frame with both their boosts going(assuming power surge/frenzies both going and 20 seconds of boost vs 10 seconds both un-boosted.

The way I format my math is a bit messy. I assumed 70 str barb vs an equivalent of a 62 str fighter (this included power surge) both with some misc bonuses from buffs and sets

With buffs and set bonuses, I came to:
Barb = 95.5 Total per non-crit swing with esos (all this included before crit multplier ) doesn't include frenzies or elemental
Fighter = 85.5 Total per non-crit swing with esos (all this included before crit multplier ) doesn't include elemental

beyond that it starts to get messy. But, it basically comes out to 6d6 from Frenzies, more base damage per swing, and the extra crit strength beating out the 20 seconds worth of fighter haste boost 4.

(I only say 30 seconds because thats the increment for reactivating boosts. glancing blows weren't calculated either. I did remember the fighter capstone alacrity)

If anyone has math easy to follow that says otherwise, id be interested in seeing it if for no other reason than to see what I could be missing.


obviously not 100% accurate but the margin of error isn't large enough to sway the result.

Lay out the calc so I can point out where you've gone wrong please.

[painindaguild]

Hi all. I just came over from DDO in Europe, this is my first post. I have been following the threads here for years but Have been unable to post because of the silly nonesense that doesnt allow eu players to post here.

Ok to Business. Because I am just joining I have to do everything over from scratch. My main toon was a 14 lvl Dwarven Fighter focusing on S+B, similar (but not a complete copy) to Borro'r excellent build.

I Generally prefer melee types to spellcasters, I have narrowed it down to either a 2H Barb or a 2H Fighter

Here are the rules I wont break: Class will be pure - no multiclassing. No Dwarves (need a change from Dwarves). So I think it will be Human or Warforged. Final Rule this will be 2-handed not a TWF build. I have earn the arguements, I know TWF is probably better, but I like variety, not to make a clone of what everyone else has.

My focus will be DPS, not tanking so I will be focusing on Str and Con at the expense of Dex and no shield or shield feats. Weapon will be GreatSword.

So the real outstanding question I have is do I try out a Barb/FB or a Fighter/Kensai.

I have been playing with a WF/Barb yesterday, but I was wondering how a pure WF Fighter might work with a 2-handed weapon. I am not a 'big clicky' fan (I always forget to use them). I want something simple, point-and-slay.

Thanks in advance!

well good u still came, enjoy ur stay fellow euro added rep in case that makes u happy

I would say as i read ur post, barbarian. As u stated it u are not concerned with maximizing dps (u dont wanna be the exact copy of an existing build) but want to do just great dps. congrats, barb and fighter provide both great dps optionas 2 handed.
A fighter is more clickie dependant then a barbarian. barbarian has frenzy, and death frenzy 1 minute. this is his shortest boost that actually matters. fighter has haste boost wich when activated takes 20 second, and 10 seconds more to recharge. so barbarian u need to reset clickies every minute, fighter every half minute.
barbarian gives u more skillpoints wich is nice, not in general worries but just cus its nicer to be in control of ur character then have it lie at the floor. wich is more fun
also if u consider running alot of epics favors barbarian greatly since most times ur just bashing helpless mobs. also 2hf brings +4 to hit over 2wpf. means frenzied berserker profits more then kensai, since kensai already comes with a higher to-hit.
second term clickies are rage (barbarian) and power surge (fighter) again fighter requires more attentien of 1 minute, while rage may take some minutes before it wears off, although u need a restore after.
also there are no feats to spend usefully (maybe skill focus umd???) except for toughnesses to fit in the feats kensai provides. wich will basically give u the same hp as a barbarian without them, so those feats are wasted as well.
In this case i really would go for a barb. less clickie dependant, especcially since ur not expected to scroll ur own buffs cus u can simply scream rage! and evryone accepts that ur the baby now
like u said u dont wanna be a clone. then u dont want the absolute top (situational) dps either so it doesnt really matter wat u pick except that u have to like it. fighter and barb look both great for wat u want just that barb just looks better suited.

about race: i personnally do not prefer warforged. half orc or dwarf are alot better, human situational (depends on feat). endgame is all about incoming heals vs dps output. wf got a serious problem with his healing amp, so no not a fan.
but this is just my taste, im a healing amp abuser, and there arent alot of pugs were u have a capstone fvs healing.
take watever u like.

[Consumer]

well good u still came, enjoy ur stay fellow euro added rep in case that makes u happy

The TS made that post over a year ago lol, not sure your advice will help that much.

[painindaguild]

who cares. i luv necroing ^^

[Truenuetral]

I tried to make it as simple and easy to follow as I can.

Scenario: Two Uber Half-orc THFers wearing epic Marilith Chains; a pure Barbarian and pure Fighter wielding ESOS's. Both with Shintao, Frenzied, and epic Vulkoors sets and some buffs. Glancing blows will IGNORED for the sake of keeping math easier. Alacrity, etc applied. No elemental damage is assumed. Attack speeds are based on the data from http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144

First we'll compare the 2 while they are not using their boosts. Later we will add the boosts to both. (I end up not even using Barb boost for comparison since it would only be used when charging into combat)

Barb Strength breakdown
20 Starting
5 Level-up
4 Tome
1 Litany
1 Exceptional1
2 Exceptional2
7 Enhancement item
8 Feats(rage feat)
14 enhancements (rage enhancements, Freny, Death Frenzy, horc str)
2 yugo pot
2 rage pot
2 set bonus Frenzied set
4 double madstone
72 Total Str
46 Strength damage modifier

Fighter Strength Breakdown
20 Starting
5 Level-up
4 Tome
1 Litany
1 Exceptional1
2 Exceptional2
7 Enhancement item
0 Feats
13 enhancements (str enhancements and power surge!)
2 yugo pot
2 rage pot
0 set bonus
4 double madstone
61 Total Str
37 Strength damage modifier

Damage variables listed in order: strength mod/power attack bonus/set bonuses/buff bonus/weapon/fighter feat/kensai enhancements/death frenzy/frenzy/=total per non crit swing unboosted

Barbarian: 46/22/8/8/27.5/0/0/14/7/=132
Fighter: 37/16/8/8/27.5/4/2/0/0/=102.5

Lets take a look at what happens swing by swing on the Barbarian(we'll assume they both hit 2 and above):
1--Miss!
2--132 (average damage from our scenario above)
3--132
4--132
5--132
6--132
7--132
8--132
9--132
10-132
11-132
12-132
13-132
14-132
15-(46+22+8+8+27.5+10seeker)x3 + 21 (from Frenzies!)=385.5
16-(46+22+8+8+27.5+10seeker)x3 + 21 (from Frenzies!)=385.5
17-(46+22+8+8+27.5+10seeker)x3 + 21 (from Frenzies!)=385.5
18-(46+22+8+8+27.5+10seeker)x3 + 21 (from Frenzies!)=385.5
19-(46+22+8+8+27.5+10seeker)x6 + 21 (from Frenzies!)=750
20-(46+22+8+8+27.5+10seeker)x6 + 21 (from Frenzies!)=750
Add all these up and divide by 20 to get average damage per swing(not hit) =4758/20=237.9


Lets take a look at what happens swing by swing on the Fighter(we'll assume they both hit 2 and above):
1--Miss!
2--102.5 (average damage from our scenario above)
3--102.5
4--102.5
5--102.5
6--102.5
7--102.5
8--102.5
9--102.5
10-102.5
11-102.5
12-102.5
13-102.5
14-(37/16/8/8/27.5/4/2/10seeker)x3= 337.5
15-(37/16/8/8/27.5/4/2/10seeker)x3= 337.5
16-(37/16/8/8/27.5/4/2/10seeker)x3= 337.5
17-(37/16/8/8/27.5/4/2/10seeker)x3= 337.5
18-(37/16/8/8/27.5/4/2/10seeker)x3= 337.5
19-(37/16/8/8/27.5/4/2/10seeker)x3= 337.5
20-(37/16/8/8/27.5/4/2/10seeker)x3= 337.5
Add all these up and divide by 20 to get average damage per swing(not hit) =3592/20=179.6

The average damage per time the Barb swings his/her weapon=237.9
The average damage per time the Fighter swings his/her weapon= 179.6(okay we'll assume a raw 10% extra from fighter capstone)= 197.6

so we have 237.9 vs 197.6 per "swing" both unboosted still

Okay, so lets try to factor in the fighter haste boost. We'll use Vanshillers numbers from the attack speed index.
Barb non-boosted dps(237.9x100.0)/60 = 23790 = 396.5
Barb boosted dps(246.65x100.0)/60 = 411.08 (only used when charging in, not worth the pause to activate it)(not even going to use this for comparison)
Fighter non-boosted dps(197.6x100.0)/60 = 329.3
Fighter boosted dps(197.6x126.3)/60 = 415.95

This represents the Barb's damage during the first minute of combat( only pauses are from activating Frenzies, not boost)396.5x57 = 22600.5 (takes slightly less than 3 seconds away from combat to activate frenzies without quickdraw)
This represents the Fighter's damage during first minute of combat with 2 pauses for speed boost and one for power surge(415.95x18.5)+(329.3x10)+(415.95x18.5)+(329.3 x8.5)=21482.2 (assuming 1.5 seconds of downtime for each boost)

This scenario comes out to the Barb averaging 18.639 more damage per second for the first minute of combat. It stays this way for awhile until Fighter runs out of power surges/boosts.(that happens before the Barb runs out of rages, but does take awhile. After barb is out of rages, and fighter out of boosts/surges, I speculate the the Barb still remains higher DPS based on the infinite number of Frenzies/Death Frenzies and the +6 strength and 6d6 that it gives.


Note: the only thing left to add in is glancing blow damage for both fighter and barb

[Consumer]

Note: the only thing left to add in is glancing blow damage for both fighter and barb

Off we go:

1 - Ravager set should be used over FB
2 - You have swapped Fighter weapon specialization enhancements for kensei mastery and have not bothered including the +4 damage
3 - buffs are wrong, 9 Bard +1 Prayer= 10
4 - set bonus damage - 4 claw +2 FB +2 Shintao +1 litany +1 force ritual = 10
5 - Can't use double madstone for sustainable str
6 - No inpsire recklessness
8 - No guild buffs
9 - Double strike is applied after attack speed is calculated not before
10 - Tharne's goggles missing
11 - Both toons should be twitching, your using Auto attack figures
12 - Activation times are incorrect
13 - If activations were included properly Fighter would have quick draw
14 - Damage boost should not be used
15 - You have missed HO racial damage increases


Basically your base damage breakdown is wrong, your gear choice is not optimal, the buffs you use are wrong, your attack speeds are wrong and so is your double strike.

I might spend some more time later looking at it.

Anyway +rep for the effort.

[Truenuetral]

Off we go:

1 - Ravager set should be used over FB
2 - You have swapped Fighter weapon specialization enhancements for kensei mastery and have not bothered including the +4 damage
3 - buffs are wrong, 9 Bard +1 Prayer= 10
4 - set bonus damage - 4 claw +2 FB +2 Shintao +1 litany +1 force ritual = 10
5 - Can't use double madstone for sustainable str
6 - No inpsire recklessness
8 - No guild buffs
9 - Double strike is applied after attack speed is calculated not before
10 - Tharne's goggles missing
11 - Both toons should be twitching, your using Auto attack figures
12 - Activation times are incorrect
13 - If activations were included properly Fighter would have quick draw
14 - Damage boost should not be used
15 - You have missed HO racial damage increases


Basically your base damage breakdown is wrong, your gear choice is not optimal, the buffs you use are wrong, your attack speeds are wrong and so is your double strike.

I might spend some more time later looking at it.

Anyway +rep for the effort.

Their were some stuff that was overlooked. Some on purpose, and some accidental. (as pointed out above)

The big thing I forgot was the +4 racial bonus to 2-handers. This was accidentally left out for both.
Ravager set for each should favor the result more for the fighter example. Stuff like the 2 missing buff bonuses are variables that should only minimally effect the result. I intended to use double madstone but I only used a +4 bonus instead of 8 so that wasn't actually calculated in.

I wasn't sure how to account for doublestrike. I assumed the easiest way would just assume +10% damage. If it is 10% chance to doublestrike on any hit, then I don't see how that has negative impact. If it is 10% to doublestrike off your mainhand then I see how it is wrong.

I don't have any scientifically-accurate data on twitching attack speed hasted vs hasted+fighter haste boost 4. The goal was to keep the same assumptions for each example. Since their was some solid data on non-twitching; that is what i used.

In the end I didn't use the barb damage boost due to it only being optimal when charging in and the fighter was assumed to have quickdraw. I used 1.5 second activation time for fighter boosts and power surge activation. A total of 4.5 seconds of downtime over 1 minute for the fighter keeping boosts active. It takes 3 seconds for both frenzy and death frenzy to activate without quickdraw.

The goal was was not so much to calculate max dps but to calculate the difference using an example as good as I could come up with(not perfect example due to some holes). With some corrections I do see the gap closing but I don't think the result leaves any example more than 5% ahead of the other.

[Consumer]

Their were some stuff that was overlooked. Some on purpose, and some accidental. (as pointed out above)

The big thing I forgot was the +4 racial bonus to 2-handers. This was accidentally left out for both.
Ravager set for each should favor the result more for the fighter example. Stuff like double madstone and the 2 buff bonuses are variables that should only minimally effect the result.

Your attacking more than twice per second, any increase will result in an important DPS change.

I wasn't sure how to account for doublestrike. I assumed the easiest way would just assume +10% damage. If it is 10% chance to doublestrike on any hit, then I don't see how that has negative impact. If it is 10% to doublestrike off your mainhand then I see how it is wrong.

Double strike is applied to all mainhand hits, as your using THF this is every attack.

I don't have any scientifically-accurate data on twitching attack speed hasted vs hasted+fighter haste boost 4. The goal was to keep the same assumptions for each example. Since their was some solid data on non-twitching; that is what i used.

If you don't have correct data why make claims you can't back up.

In the end I didn't use the barb damage boost due to it only being optimal when charging in and the fighter was assumed to have quickdraw. I used 1.5 second activation time for fighter boosts and power surge activation. A total of 4.5 seconds of downtime over 1 minute for the fighter keeping boosts active. It takes 3 seconds for both frenzy and death frenzy to activate without quick draw.

Action boosts take 1.2 seconds to activate and 0.6 seconds with quick draw. The barb spends 2.4 seconds per minute activating and the Fighter 1.8.

The goal was was not so much to calculate max dps but to calculate the difference using an example as good as I could come up with(not perfect example due to some holes). With some corrections I do see the gap closing but I don't think the result leaves any example more than 5% ahead of the other.

Almost everything you used was wrong, the difference between the two is drastic.

[Truenuetral]

\ If you don't have correct data why make claims you can't back up.

(Edit: meh used 8.5 instead of the correct 7(on average) damage for the 2d8 from ravager)
This is exactly what my point is to you. That is why I am using accurate attack speed data and working this out on paper. If you have accurate twitch speed data, then please share otherwise there isn't much room to critique speed since it isn;t correctable without speculation and this is only comparing differences not actual max-possible. I said what I thought based on some initial calcs and thought I would publicize where I was getting numbers so they could be corrected if needed... so for sake of this example, we assume non-twitching.

updated variables/math currently leaves fighter 4.2 more damage per second. Will update if i can think of anything else or feel like putting in glancing blows.

Updating using Ravager set, Horc 2WF enhancements, corrected double madstone typo to single madstone, force ritual damage added. Corrected quickdraw activation times. Assuming Fighter has quickdraw and Barbarian doesn't

I tried to make it as simple and easy to follow as I can.

Scenario: Two Uber Half-orc THFers wearing epic Marilith Chains; a pure Barbarian and pure Fighter wielding ESOS's. Both with Shintao, Frenzied, and epic Vulkoors sets and some buffs. Glancing blows will IGNORED for the sake of keeping math easier. Alacrity, etc applied. No elemental damage is assumed. Attack speeds are based on the data from http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144

First we'll compare the 2 while they are not using their boosts. Later we will add the boosts to both. (I end up not even using Barb boost for comparison since it would only be used when charging into combat)

Barb Strength breakdown
20 Starting
5 Level-up
4 Tome
1 Litany
1 Exceptional1
2 Exceptional2
7 Enhancement item
8 Feats(rage feat)
14 enhancements (rage enhancements, Freny, Death Frenzy, horc str)
2 yugo pot
2 rage pot
4 madstone
70 Total Str
45 Strength damage modifier

Fighter Strength Breakdown
20 Starting
5 Level-up
4 Tome
1 Litany
1 Exceptional1
2 Exceptional2
7 Enhancement item
0 Feats
13 enhancements (str enhancements and power surge!)
2 yugo pot
2 rage pot
4 madstone
61 Total Str
37 Strength damage modifier

Damage variables listed in order: strength mod/power attack bonus/set bonuses/buff bonus/weapon/horc enhancements/fighter feat/kensai enhancements/death frenzy/frenzy/Ravager/force ritual/=total per non crit swing unboosted

Barbarian: 45/22/6/10/27.5/4/0/0/14/7/8.5/1/=132
Fighter: 37/16/6/10/27.5/4/4/2/0/0/8.5/1/=102.5

Lets take a look at what happens swing by swing on the Barbarian(we'll assume they both hit 2 and above):
1--Miss!
2--145 (average damage from our scenario above)
3--145
4--145
5--145
6--145
7--145
8--145
9--145
10-145
11-145
12-145
13-145
14-145
15-(45+22+6+10+27.5+4+10seeker)x3 + 21 (from Frenzies!) + 8.5ravager + 1forceritual=404
16-(45+22+6+10+27.5+4+10seeker)x3 + 21 (from Frenzies!) + 8.5ravager + 1forceritual=404
17-(45+22+6+10+27.5+4+10seeker)x3 + 21 (from Frenzies!) + 8.5ravager + 1forceritual=404
18-(45+22+6+10+27.5+4+10seeker)x3 + 21 (from Frenzies!) + 8.5ravager + 1forceritual=404
19-(45+22+6+10+27.5+4+10seeker)x6 + 21 (from Frenzies!) + 8.5ravager + 1forceritual=777.5
20-(45+22+6+10+27.5+4+10seeker)x6 + 21 (from Frenzies!) + 8.5ravager + 1forceritual=777.5
Add all these up and divide by 20 to get average damage per swing(not hit) =5056/20=252.8

Lets take a look at what happens swing by swing on the Fighter(we'll assume they both hit 2 and above):
1--Miss!
2--116 (average damage from our scenario above)
3--116
4--116
5--116
6--116
7--116
8--116
9--116
10-116
11-116
12-116
13-116
14-(37+16+6+10+27.5+4+4+2+10seeker)x3 +8.5ravager 1forceritual= 349.5
15-(37+16+6+10+27.5+4+4+2+10seeker)x3 +8.5ravager 1forceritual= 349.5
16-(37+16+6+10+27.5+4+4+2+10seeker)x3 +8.5ravager 1forceritual= 349.5
17-(37+16+6+10+27.5+4+4+2+10seeker)x3 +8.5ravager 1forceritual= 349.5
18-(37+16+6+10+27.5+4+4+2+10seeker)x3 +8.5ravager 1forceritual= 349.5
19-(37+16+6+10+27.5+4+4+2+10seeker)x3 +8.5ravager 1forceritual= 349.5
20-(37+16+6+10+27.5+4+4+2+10seeker)x3 +8.5ravager 1forceritual= 349.5
Add all these up and divide by 20 to get average damage per swing(not hit) =3838.5/20=191.92

Average Barb damage per swing = 252.8
Average Fighter damage per swing = 191.92 (before alacrity and before boost)

OK, lets get some figure for fighters alacrity

Average Barbarian damage per second unboosted with frenzies= (252.8x100)/60=420
Average Fighter damage per second unboosted with alacrity= (191.92x110)/60=351.85
Average Fighter damage per second boosted including alacrity=(191.92x126.3x1.1)/60=443.33
57.6x420=24192 /60= 403.2
38.8x443.33 + 20.6x351.85 /60=407.488

4.2 damage per second difference with Fighter in lead

[Consumer]

(Edit: meh used 8.5 instead of the correct 9(on average) damage for the 2d8 from ravager)

The Ravager set is 2d6 or 7 damage on average...

[Truenuetral]

The Ravager set is 2d6 or 7 damage on average...

doh


i came back to this game after a year break, excuse my ignorance

[Consumer]

doh


i came back to this game after a year break, excuse my ignorance

You've also listed Two weapon fighting enhancements instead of THF lol.

[Truenuetral]

You've also listed Two weapon fighting enhancements instead of THF lol.

ya, another typo. :/