THF - Barbarian or Fighter

[marshm1972]

Hi all. I just came over from DDO in Europe, this is my first post. I have been following the threads here for years but Have been unable to post because of the silly nonesense that doesnt allow eu players to post here.

Ok to Business. Because I am just joining I have to do everything over from scratch. My main toon was a 14 lvl Dwarven Fighter focusing on S+B, similar (but not a complete copy) to Borro'r excellent build.

I Generally prefer melee types to spellcasters, I have narrowed it down to either a 2H Barb or a 2H Fighter

Here are the rules I wont break: Class will be pure - no multiclassing. No Dwarves (need a change from Dwarves). So I think it will be Human or Warforged. Final Rule this will be 2-handed not a TWF build. I have earn the arguements, I know TWF is probably better, but I like variety, not to make a clone of what everyone else has.

My focus will be DPS, not tanking so I will be focusing on Str and Con at the expense of Dex and no shield or shield feats. Weapon will be GreatSword.

So the real outstanding question I have is do I try out a Barb/FB or a Fighter/Kensai.

I have been playing with a WF/Barb yesterday, but I was wondering how a pure WF Fighter might work with a 2-handed weapon. I am not a 'big clicky' fan (I always forget to use them). I want something simple, point-and-slay.

Thanks in advance!

[Goldeneye]

Welcome to the US servers:
If you are going Barbarian, I definitely recommend Warforged over Human.

There are a few reasons WF are Better:

• Power attack enhancements -3/+3 (or +6 stacking while THF)
• They will also get more glancing blows then other classes.
• +2 Con, as well as 4 Toughness enhancements
• Warforged DR

The reasons for going Fighter, don't benefit a barbarian nearly as much

• Extra feat - useful for twf, not really useful to THF Barb
• Extra Skill points - to spend on what?
• "ok" enhancements.

[Goldeneye]

In terms of Fighter vs. Barbarian, Barbarian is the obvious winner for THF

• Power Attack Enhacenments
• Rage
• Completly ignores AC = true barbarian
• DR Enhancements

The main reason for going Fighter, is to have tons of feats to choose from. If you are going THF, it isn't nearly as feat-intensive as TWF, therefor the barbarian benefits are much greater.

[Draclaud]

One thing to think about with a WF Fighter, is you'll have ALOT of extra feats and could get some pretty substantial DR and or HPs. I don't have time to do the math ATM but the WF DR feat and toughness feats could be pretty hefty. If you can find room for a 13 int(via tomes or whatever) Improved trip could be a killer for you.

The barbarian would most likely be easier to play as all you need to do is rage up, and hit supreme cleave when you're surrounded.

You can't really go wrong with either, but I'l looking forward to seeing all the level 20 pure fighters. It's about time they got something good (attack speed bonus).

GL and welcome!

[BlackSteel]

pure vs pure, the barbarian two hander is much better off.

A fighter multiclass tho can achieve better numbers for short periods of time between surging and boosts. But those numbers are not terribley far off from the pure barb's. Which should be pretty much constant; as theirs no limit on frenzy, and by level 20, you have more rages than you know what to do with.

Human is nice for the Healing Amp, but warforge give you an extra six damage a swing, which is huge. (also factor, that 6 damage increases your glancing blow damage by 2-3, and you get enhancements to increase the proc rate for elemental damage on glancings as well)

For a newish player it can get either frustrating or expensive tho, running a no AC WF barbarian. To keep costs down I would recommend using only repair moderate potions. They do a sizable amount, at 1/3 the price of repair serious. Farm brass beavers, the bracers from the DQ raid, and/or silver flame favor to eliminate the need for stacks of repair pots.

[Shade]

I have been playing with a WF/Barb yesterday, but I was wondering how a pure WF Fighter might work with a 2-handed weapon. I am not a 'big clicky' fan (I always forget to use them). I want something simple, point-and-slay.

Fighters only advantage in this area is more feats which means easier access to more active tactic abilities like improved trip and stunning blow.. What youd consider clickies I guess.

Also the only way for them to even approach barbarian DPS is kensai - which actually invovles more active ability use then barb to be effect - namely powersurge and haste boost. Frenzy Berserkers barbs will do great just as long as you can remember to rage, as that will get you the str, con, saves and crit multiplier inrease for a good 3-4+ mins.

Frenzy involves some ability use, as you have frenzy and death frenzy, each only 1 min.. So constant use requires some attention to the timers.

If you want DPS.. this is the way to go. THF WF FBs will be the highest all around constant dps build in the game.

[Shade]

One thing to think about with a WF Fighter, is you'll have ALOT of extra feats and could get some pretty substantial DR and or HPs.

A WF Fighter who spends all his regular level feats on DR and Toughness would end up a significantly weaker and squishier character then a WF barbarian who spent none.
He's still end up with less DR (~9 vs 8), less hp (~800 vs ~700) and less saves (a ton less fort, bit less will and 6 less reflex vs uncanny dodged barbs).
Only way to match a barb is to start cutting into the ftr bonus feats, which starts to severely gimp dps and other parts of your character as your using your one advantage on the class on just catching up on what another class gets for free.

Because of that, Barbarians will remain the high hp high dr high dps king of tanking.

[silvac]

What about making a barbarian 18/Fighter 2 for the 2 feats and some of the fighter enhancements?

[Kyrn]

What about making a barbarian 18/Fighter 2 for the 2 feats and some of the fighter enhancements?

Just ask yourself if 2 feats can make up for the Barb capstone and mighty rage:

Barbarian Might: Your biceps are frequently mistaken for overlarge slabs of ham. Your strength is increased by 2, and when wielding two-handed weapons you have increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows.

Mighty Rage: The bonuses of the barbarian's rage increase to a total of +8 strength, +8 constitution and +4 to will saving throws but the barbarian still incurs a reduction of its Armor Class by 2. Fatigue penalties remain the same as regular rage. Replaces the regular rage feat.

[Nezichiend]

Just ask yourself if 2 feats can make up for the Barb capstone:

Barbarian Might: Your biceps are frequently mistaken for overlarge slabs of ham. Your strength is increased by 2, and when wielding two-handed weapons you have increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows.

Yes, 2 fighter lvls beats the capstone. You start running into trouble when choosing between mighty rage (2str, 2con, +1 will save) + capstone VS. 2 fighter lvls.

2 fighters lvls versus pure:
+2 feats
-24hp (from losing mighty rage and 4 from d12HD versus d10HD)
-3 str (fighter str 1)
haste boost (very helpful)
+1 stunning blow (AP)
+1 trip (maybe, AP)
- glancing blow dmg
This beats 2 str, but maybe not


EDIT: You editted your post Kyrn!!!

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Just ask yourself if 2 feats can make up for the Barb capstone and mighty rage:

Barbarian Might: Your biceps are frequently mistaken for overlarge slabs of ham. Your strength is increased by 2, and when wielding two-handed weapons you have increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows.

Mighty Rage: The bonuses of the barbarian's rage increase to a total of +8 strength, +8 constitution and +4 to will saving throws but the barbarian still incurs a reduction of its Armor Class by 2. Fatigue penalties remain the same as regular rage. Replaces the regular rage feat.

Plus...although it may be a bug, when not madstone raged the Barbarian capstone seems to give a 10% haste boost.

[marshm1972]

Hi all

Thanks for all the replies. I wrote this a 6 months ago. Just a few observations since...

I finally went with a WF Fighter Kensei using GS. He was just awesome. Hes now lvl 13 (I haven't played in awhile) but when was playing he was practically unstoppable. I don't consider myself a very good player, but on one full party Tempest Spine run without even really trying I had killed almost twice the number of enemies than the next guy in the raid. A couple of the PUG members were very impressed.

I don't mean to brag, but that was just an awesome and memorable experience, one of my best playing DDO.

One thing I discovered in my experience is that while barbarians do hit harder, I was generally able to out preform them on most occasions simply because I was more survivable. Lesson was, very high DPS means little if you are dead. My toon was as much as a mana sponge as barbs were.

In fairness, I only got him to lvls 13-14 (I forget) so maybe at endgame things got easier for barbarians. I also really never got any uber-loot aside from Minos Legens. Since I never got SoS, I probably should have respecced to Greataxe or Falchion. I never picked Carniflax and that was obviously a mistake...

My main weaknesses were difficult to heal (though this wasn't as big a problem as I thought), really bad choices in Docents (there are still few good docents for melees). I was never lucky to get a good healing amp docent like docent of blood. And I had a tendency to trigger every trap I stepped on. In fact, traps were far more dangerous to mean than most monsters.

My toon isnt retired, but I have now a follow up question...

HALF-ORCS...

Bigger DPS potential, better armor choices, easier to heal, but loses all the resists and some of the abilities than my WF got. And of course, should I take another look at barbarians if I get a HO?

Thanks for all your wonderful replies this year.

[googatron]

Hi all

Thanks for all the replies. I wrote this a 6 months ago. Just a few observations since...

I finally went with a WF Fighter Kensei using GS. He was just awesome. Hes now lvl 13 (I haven't played in awhile) but when was playing he was practically unstoppable. I don't consider myself a very good player, but on one full party Tempest Spine run without even really trying I had killed almost twice the number of enemies than the next guy in the raid. A couple of the PUG members were very impressed.

I don't mean to brag, but that was just an awesome and memorable experience, one of my best playing DDO.

One thing I discovered in my experience is that while barbarians do hit harder, I was generally able to out preform them on most occasions simply because I was more survivable. Lesson was, very high DPS means little if you are dead. My toon was as much as a mana sponge as barbs were.

In fairness, I only got him to lvls 13-14 (I forget) so maybe at endgame things got easier for barbarians. I also really never got any uber-loot aside from Minos Legens. Since I never got SoS, I probably should have respecced to Greataxe or Falchion. I never picked Carniflax and that was obviously a mistake...

My main weaknesses were difficult to heal (though this wasn't as big a problem as I thought), really bad choices in Docents (there are still few good docents for melees). I was never lucky to get a good healing amp docent like docent of blood. And I had a tendency to trigger every trap I stepped on. In fact, traps were far more dangerous to mean than most monsters.

My toon isnt retired, but I have now a follow up question...

HALF-ORCS...

Bigger DPS potential, better armor choices, easier to heal, but loses all the resists and some of the abilities than my WF got. And of course, should I take another look at barbarians if I get a HO?

Thanks for all your wonderful replies this year.

Halforc > Is the god of THF Barbs, infact they were made with that class and build specificly in mind.. Which is probebly why they have enhancment lines to boost that path.

If your going THF as any class then Horc is the way to go. If your going barb... Horc is a nobrainer.

[marshm1972]

Ok how about a HO Barb/FB vs a HO fighter kensei?

[Aaxeyu]

Ok how about a HO Barb/FB vs a HO fighter kensei?

Fighter > barb.

[googatron]

Fighter > barb.

only when talking pure vs pure.

[Truenuetral]

only when talking pure vs pure.

Not even that is true. Both THF, barbs will do more dps, even when factoring in fighter haste boosts

[Consumer]

Not even that is true. Both THF, barbs will do more dps, even when factoring in fighter haste boosts

Incorrect, the Fighter can do over 100 DPS more than the Barb when THF.

Only when TWF can the Barb pull ahead.

[Cetus]

Not even that is true. Both THF, barbs will do more dps, even when factoring in fighter haste boosts

anyone else laughing at this statement?

[Truenuetral]

Incorrect, the Fighter can do over 100 DPS more than the Barb when THF.

Only when TWF can the Barb pull ahead.

Incorrect, the Barb does over 10% more damage over a 30 sec time frame with both their boosts going(assuming power surge/frenzies both going and 20 seconds of boost vs 10 seconds both un-boosted.

The way I format my math is a bit messy. I assumed 70 str barb vs an equivalent of a 62 str fighter (this included power surge) both with some misc bonuses from buffs and sets

With buffs and set bonuses, I came to:
Barb = 95.5 Total per non-crit swing with esos (all this included before crit multplier ) doesn't include frenzies or elemental
Fighter = 85.5 Total per non-crit swing with esos (all this included before crit multplier ) doesn't include elemental

beyond that it starts to get messy. But, it basically comes out to 6d6 from Frenzies, more base damage per swing, and the extra crit strength beating out the 20 seconds worth of fighter haste boost 4.

(I only say 30 seconds because thats the increment for reactivating boosts. glancing blows weren't calculated either. I did remember the fighter capstone alacrity)

If anyone has math easy to follow that says otherwise, id be interested in seeing it if for no other reason than to see what I could be missing.


obviously not 100% accurate but the margin of error isn't large enough to sway the result.