a tribute to kind people

[Samadhi]

This is because all that mana the BC is burning just keeping yourself alive is mana wasted which could have been spent on a different character who knows their role in a DDO game.
.

As a general rule, my battle cleric gets more mana back from her Concordant Opp's then she ever spends self-healing. And I don't even have the torc yet. Good story though.


Knowing roles is all well and good for a perfect group, but I will generally always prefer the character with the versatility to take on multiple roles at 95% efficiency, than the dude that is 100% efficient at one thing at the cost of any real proficiency elsewhere.

[TheJusticar]

The fact is Wizards dish out more. And that's why they are so squishy.

Game balance.

This is an absolute. And I absolutely agree.

Godspeed.

[toughguyjoe]

Dont bark up my tree B*tch
Is That Dramatic enough for you?

Besides...me and the smurf have hugged recently.....I dont think we have hate for eachother.


Opall

not really trying to say you guys have bad blood, just reminding the Smurf over there that if he is going to post Blocks to text about something, and how ridiculous it is, he should think back to whether he was ever on the opposite end of the same situation.

[toughguyjoe]

SNIP

I personally think that you're against Tanks. I think you like to play your caster and are super impressed with the amount of damage they can do with one spell.

The rest of us are just as impressed. Do not get me wrong i'm not joking. Sorcs and Wizs do amazing damage with their vast array of spells.

What I think you're dismissing here is the fact that a Tanks only limit on the number of times he can swing is his hit point bar.

Thats not something lightly dismissed.

Sorc/Wiz has great damage dealing capabilities. The fact is, So do well built tanks.

[TheJusticar]

Knowing roles is all well and good for a perfect group, but I will generally always prefer the character with the versatility to take on multiple roles at 95% efficiency, than the dude that is 100% efficient at one thing at the cost of any real proficiency elsewhere.

I agree wrt to versatility. I usually build my toons for both offensive output and defensive measures (AC/HPs for my pally and high UMD for my sorcs) in mind. Ranger-Rogue-Monk builds kind of "exploit" DDO's lack of penalties for multi-classing, but those builds are very versatile as well.

Godspeed.

[Atenhotep]

As a general rule, my battle cleric gets more mana back from her Concordant Opp's then she ever spends self-healing. And I don't even have the torc yet. Good story though.

Knowing roles is all well and good for a perfect group, but I will generally always prefer the character with the versatility to take on multiple roles at 95% efficiency, than the dude that is 100% efficient at one thing at the cost of any real proficiency elsewhere.

My ranger has the torc, I love it. He gets everyone al buffed up and by the end of the first part in SOS he has full mana again.

And when I solo my cleric is a battlecleric, and when I group with people who I regularly group with and I know what to expect from them, I know we have each other's backs, then it's fine.

But running a raid with a battlecleric .. oh say Hound ... when said Battlecleric is not attending to their responsibilities .. just generally isn't my cup of tea.

D&D is all about archetypes and there exists a certain balance in that.

[Atenhotep]

I personally think that you're against Tanks. I think you like to play your caster and are super impressed with the amount of damage they can do with one spell.

The rest of us are just as impressed. Do not get me wrong i'm not joking. Sorcs and Wizs do amazing damage with their vast array of spells.

What I think you're dismissing here is the fact that a Tanks only limit on the number of times he can swing is his hit point bar.

Thats not something lightly dismissed.

Sorc/Wiz has great damage dealing capabilities. The fact is, So do well built tanks.

Not at all against tanks. I just understand the very very simple game mechanics.

Not hard to do.

The thing you did begin to blossom on, which is correct, is the fact it isn't at all about the amount of damage the tank can dish out verses the caster.

It's about the amount of damage the tank can sustain.

A Caster can actually deal more damage (more DPS) than a tank BUT since he'll likely be dead in a matter of seconds (the caster) it is preferable to have a tank dishing out the damage.

Why anyone would argue that a caster can't dish out massive DPS is beyond me. A complete misunderstanding of game mechanics I guess?

D&D is basically (and I realize this isn't at all sexy) just a math game.

It's all just simple math with simple equations taking shapes such as tanks and wizards and clerics.

[Tabun]

page 7 and in good speed but ****** this post is way off base now :/ I cant remember the main event anymore :/ this is like a boxing match backwards

[Aspenor]

Gary Gygax seemed to think so since he always called the wizard the most powerful class in the game. But what we he know right?

DDO is not even remotely the same as PnP. Gygax knew PnP, not the game we play. In early PnP the wizard was the most powerful class. In later editions, such as 3.5, the cleric and druid could rival the wizard. A wizard prepared for an opponent, however, cannot realistically lose.

In DDO, though, we do not have the options available in PnP, and monsters have many more hit points. This reduces the wizard's power drastically. In DDO the wizard fulfills a role. In PnP, the wizard could assume the role of nearly any other member of the party and do it as well, or better, than the original class.

[SableShadow]

It's about the amount of damage the tank can sustain.

No, it's about the availability of mana on the caster, more often than not.

[Atenhotep]

We're almost at page eight and Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies hasn't kicked in yet?

***??!! This is an outrage!!

*stomps feet*

[Jonny_D]

Not at all against tanks. I just understand the very very simple game mechanics.

Not hard to do.

The thing you did begin to blossom on, which is correct, is the fact it isn't at all about the amount of damage the tank can dish out verses the caster.

It's about the amount of damage the tank can sustain.

A Caster can actually deal more damage (more DPS) than a tank BUT since he'll likely be dead in a matter of seconds (the caster) it is preferable to have a tank dishing out the damage.

Why anyone would argue that a caster can't dish out massive DPS is beyond me. A complete misunderstanding of game mechanics I guess?

D&D is basically (and I realize this isn't at all sexy) just a math game.

It's all just simple math with simple equations taking shapes such as tanks and wizards and clerics.

What you say is true, but only in PnP. There are so many encounters and so many house rules and DM exploits (red/purple named immunities ect) that a caster cannot relably have the DPS output of a melee. For Certain bursts nothing can touch a caster for DPS, however there comes a point in time when Melee over take casters in dps because mana will inevitably run out. Not to many all caster shrouds going because it is not efficient Healing consumeables are much cheaper than DPS casting consumables so on really long quests and raids melee win in the DPM (damage per minute) category. Soling on a caster is much more fun then a melee. It will be interesting to see how the favored soul change these dynamics as that class appearrs to blur the line between caster and melee.

this thread needs more hate.

[Tabun]

hate!!!!! HATE!!!!!!!!

[SableShadow]

hate!!!!! HATE!!!!!!!!

I'm not convinced.

[Atenhotep]

No, it's about the availability of mana on the caster, more often than not.

Pertinent to the discussion (while trying to ignore the silly strawmen that some people have been throwing up) I disagree .. or maybe you are arguing a different point, I don't know.

But the fact remains.

* A Tank can generally maintain a combative position longer with less risk of immediate death than a squishy caster.

* A Caster deals more damage than a tank but has the disadvantage of being easier to kill.

Seriously, arguing against those two basic facts is really just silly quibbling and perhaps a misunderstanding of game mechanics.

Which takes me back to my first point. The only way to argue against that is to use straw men and limit your caster's resources while fully equipping your tank.

DDO is not even remotely the same as PnP. Gygax knew PnP, not the game we play. In early PnP the wizard was the most powerful class. In later editions, such as 3.5, the cleric and druid could rival the wizard. A wizard prepared for an opponent, however, cannot realistically lose.

In DDO, though, we do not have the options available in PnP, and monsters have many more hit points. This reduces the wizard's power drastically. In DDO the wizard fulfills a role. In PnP, the wizard could assume the role of nearly any other member of the party and do it as well, or better, than the original class.

I already said DDO is not pnp. In fact DDO isn't really even D&D, it's a game based on D&D.

But even with that, simple math remains behind it all.

And Gary Gygax did know this game .. you've ran Delera's I'm sure, right?

But beyond that you used a lot of words to say what exactly?

Are people still arguing that Wizards don't have as good a DPS as Tanks?

Well in order for you to be right you have to limit your wizard's resouces but not limt your tank's resources.

But that's just silly quibbling and you're not a silly quibbler, right?

Anyway, the quibbling is just too silly so I'm moving on.

Enjoy the new mod.

Don't let the sucky casters (or should I say, "Walking Haste Potions") who just sandbag along while your macho tanks run the quests get in your way.

[Atenhotep]

I'm not convinced.

1. We made it to page 8. Congrats.

2. Would you feel more comfortable calling me a Nazi or is there somebody else you'd like to delegate to that role?

3. I think pretty much everyone in this thread is silly and I'm pretty sure that after about my fourth post nobody had any idea what we were even talking about. It seems that responses were just sorta arguing subjectively for the sake of argument. What's certain is the last two pages of responses had nothing at all to do with the original response to somebody (who may or may not have been a Nazi, I'm not sure) who claimed wizards don't have any DPS.

4. Didn't I just say I was moving on in my previous post? **** me!

[SableShadow]

Seriously, arguing against those two basic facts is really just silly quibbling and perhaps a misunderstanding of game mechanics.

Awesome.

1. We made it to page 8. Congrats.

2. Would you feel more comfortable calling me a Nazi or is there somebody else you'd like to delegate to that role?

3. I think pretty much everyone in this thread is silly and I'm pretty sure that after about my fourth post nobody had any idea what we were even talking about. It seems that responses were just sorta arguing subjectively for the sake of argument. What's certain is the last two pages of responses had nothing at all to do with the original response to somebody (who may or may not have been a Nazi, I'm not sure) who claimed wizards don't have any DPS.

4. Didn't I just say I was moving on in my previous post? **** me!

I think you must have me confused with someone else ...

[toughguyjoe]

SNIP

I've seen people stick their fingers in their ears and yell "LA LA LA" before, but you're dangerously close to going overboard with it.

Wizards and Sorcs do great DPS.

The original thing that sparked you of was someone said "Firewall and Cone of cold aren't DPS"

Asp said "Not when it counts they aren't."

Now my only question is are you willing to come to VoD with me and be the Main DPS on Suulo with your sorc?

Because thats what Asp was alluding to. Its not feasible.

If you want to come blow that many resources to prove a point that its possible, have fun i'd love to watch!

[Atenhotep]

Wizards and Sorcs do great DPS.

Ok, so your personal insults have made you worthy of being ignored.

However I couldn't pass that one quote up.

So why the heck have you been arguing?

The arguments people were making were ridiculous.

"Oh, a caster doesn't have DPS 'cause he's castin a firewall on a flame elemental."

And stupid stuff like that.

And that's just stupid.

[Atenhotep]

SableShadow - I was just being silly with my bullet points. The thing is we reached page eight and Godwin's Law hadn't kicked in yet .. I felt a little bit of disapointment and you seem like a good natured and well reasoned person so I felt safe to begin a mock "You're a Nazi" flame war. After all this is page eight.

Sorry for the confusion.


PS: Anytime anyone wants to throw around Hitler and Nazis to make their point, we're ready for you.

Bring it on!!