Need B4 Greed

[Thrudh]

that is only 1 side of the story

But that's the side of the story we're talking about...

"Hey, this guy totally stole this old ladies' purse"

"Wow, that guy is a jerk!"

"Nah, that guy is okay..."

"How can you say that? He stole her purse!"

"Oh, that's just one side of the story"

<facepalm>

Well, duh.... if wizard could USE a +3 CHA tome, the responses here would be different... We're discussing how we all feel about someone taking a +3 tome and vendoring it... That is a JERK action... Sure, if it didn't happen, then the wizard wasn't a jerk... Thanks, Captain Obvious!

[J1NG]

I'm probably stepping into something I don't really want to, but I feel like I need to voice my opinion on this too, even if it's stuff said before or being written as I type to post. Oh, and do feel free to add, agree, disagree with points made, as I don't have all info, only going by what I have understood of the thread so far. So do point me out if I'm missing something.

Firstly, I wouldn't label someone (the wiz) as being greedy and action taken on them (blacklist, ignore, whatever) yet for a few points:

1. We don't actually know what the Wiz meant by saying "I don't need it".

I wasn't there, a good deal of us wasn't there either. I can only say that "I don't need it" can mean a lot more other things than "I've got base stats of 50 everywhere, and I've used said tome before too, I don't need it". I don't remember the original poster putting up exactly what this Wiz said, only what they remember of the conversation taken place. And this is only one sided. You should treat it as such and only put caution on when encountering this Wiz, not act on it as if it's unbiased, not mistaken, not misunderstood or something along those lines at this point. Any other response would seem unfair and rather harsh.

Personally, I would apply a Innocent unless I can prove they are guilty. If I see another +3 Cha tome that is unshared, and they aren't saving up for some rediculously extortinately priced item on the AH, then I would say (at most) greedy then. But not before.

2. Need. Who really needed it?

Again, I don't have transcript or full details, but the original poster said that others "could" have used it. Unless these others come up to post and say that yes, they had a "need" for one and "could" have used it. ie They haven't used a +3 Con already, or it would actually make a difference to their rolls. I wouldn't really class it as "need".

In the beta, I was rather notorious for pulling tomes on a continuous basis. I only started to pull the +2's near the end, but would it actually be greed if I pulled one and used it on my Monk character first? I certainly don't "need" it, but would certainly be useful. Again, back to defining the word of "need" at the moment (like point 1).

Hence, why I would suggest caution and restraint on instantly "blacklisting" this Wiz. Whatever "blacklisting" means to you. For me, it means total nothing to do with them.

3. Back about the AH. Did anyone else actually offer anything when the offer was made?

According to the original poster, no one even offered anything. If one person said to the Wiz, I'd like to offer you all I have (5k plat only; total fortune), there was engagement. Rejected. But still engagement. Right now, from what the original poster has said, none of this even happened (please do add info if this was not the case). Which means no one even said they wanted as far as I'm concerned (My view only); as no one expressed interest.

Since we don't know if the Wiz was looking for plat to buy stuff that's clearly over inflated in the AH. It can't be expressed as greed, as they might "need" something in the AH. They are simply not "trading" with anyone in the group, as no one expressed interest. But they have "need" of it, as it's being changed to AH capital.

Now, unless you know for a fact that this person has got EVERYTHING already, then it should not be classed as greed.

For example, I pulled every +1 tome available inside 2 days in the beta. With multiples of each. I also had money for the AH and didn't need to use them again as they won't work. If I pulled and wanted to trade and got no offers, and then decided to take it, THEN would I be greedy. But of course, you know all this as I just told you. We don't know about this Wiz at this time. Again, should not be instantly "acted" (blacklisted) on straight away. (For the record, I gave most tomes away unless I needed an item in the AH which I could clearly not get, as I did not have access to that adventure pack).

Make no mistake, I am not saying anyone is wrong, or is right. Only that I have noted that many seems to have jumped into the action stage before finding this Wiz and seeing what their half of the story is. Personally, I would only have heightened caution, and not all out action (blacklist) of this character (Wiz). As it is totally out of proportion for only one side of the story.

Err, that's about it really. But, I feel that those should be addressed first before something as major as blacklisting is done.

J1NG

[Quikster]

Thats contradictory.

1) "You can do whatever you want with your loot"

2) "But if I don't approve of what you do with your loot, I'll blacklist you"


You're using peer pressure to make him do what you want with his loot....



No, there was pressure - this thread. The "unselfish" people here are passing his name around to blacklist because he didn't give them his loot.

Whats not to understand here? You do what you want with your loot. Ill do what I want when forming my groups. If I dont like how you handle yourself in a raid (loot or otherwise) why in the world would I invite you back? Because I'm a pushover? Dont act like an a$$hat and I wont treat you like one.

I think what you're missing here: your presumption that you have any right to have a say re his loot in the first place. And yes, I would have given away the +3 tome. But to demand such generosity, and them punish people with blacklisting for not being generous - thats backwards. The concept of "need before greed" is almost always voiced by those who envy what someone else has.

And If I'm in your raid, are you going to tell me I have to give away a cool weapon I pulled to someone else who can make better use of the crit range? Keep your busy-body nose out of my chest. If I pull something I don't need, I'll offer to trade it for something I do need. If you refuse to make a legit offer, I'll do whatever I want with it. I might give it away and put it up for a roll, but thats MY call, not yours.



But thats different from your original complaint - you guys are steamed that he didn't put it up for a roll. Your mad that he didn't offer to give it away.

Never once have I told somebody what they had to do with their loot. Not once have I insinuated that in this thread. Not once have I said to anyone do this or else. The point remains if you have what I consider shady loot practices I will exclude you from my raids in the future. Dont like it, dont don shady loot practices. Dont care? Neither do I.

Need before greed would be an awesome rule if everyone that played agreed to use only cookiecutter builds from the forumns instead of actually making their own. Because if all characters for a class were built the same way you could argue more effectively for need but as it is now you have plenty of people playing nonconventional builds that may change their equipment needs from raid loot. It is funny but all of the items that someone has given away mean nothing if you want something in the chest that someone else wants. It is not required that anyone give up their raid loot because of what others think the item is for...my bards make very good use of raid items that I was told were not for bards. I still get tells to this day from nosy people miffed that i would take raid loot x from someone who could use it more. To which I reply that is why I only raid non shroud raids with people I know. I never roll for items that are considered class preferred by the majority but my friends and guildies know that if I pull something I have been wanting I will keep it. Does this make me a bad player? I have an ac build bard that would love the chattering ring but I know if I pug that raid there will be a thread about how that BARD took my ring when he pulled it....granted my build will never achieve monk ac but really is it not for me to decide what is best for my own character especially if I am the one that pulls the item.

Really these threads will keep popping up because ,unless Turbine deems it needed to allow us the ability to show or not show our loot in the chest, there will always be someone who is upset that something was not given to them.

Not once in this thread have I complained that a wizard uses a +3 cha tome. My complaint was, is, and will be, that he put it up for auction.

+1 rep for pointing out the whiners are just as bad as the greedy one. While I personally would pass it on, I will NOT grief someone for taking anything that pops up for them. While I might not like it, it is a part of the GAME. I also don't grief anyone that roles on something that would be better on my toon. I might not like it, but it is part of the GAME. Personally, I find all those asking for the name to be PM'd to them to be more disgusting than the person whole took the tome. Before you want to grief me, No, I was not in the raid, No, I have no idea who it was nor care. You don't fix greedy actions by acting immature as I have seen so far in this post.

I apreciate knowing when peeps in the community are using what I consider bogus loot practices. If the offender does it in a raid Im in, I then have more information (albeit one sided) to make a decision on. If the offender is new, maybe he didnt know any better. But if the offender isnt new, I dont want to run with him if this is how he conducts himself (or herself as the case may be)

Freedom is freedom... I can't (and won't) stop someone from spouting racist nonsense at a neo-Nazi rally or on a web-site...

However, it's my freedom to never associate with such a person... If he owned a store, I would never go to it.

It's not called peer pressure... It's called consequences for your actions. I can believe in (and let others exercise) freedom... It doesn't mean I'm forced to give up MY freedoms...

He can do what he wants with his loot...That's his freedom... It doesn't mean there are no consequences to his choices... Freedom doesn't mean you can do anything you want, and no one will care...

Word

Lol, no I read just fine, I don't think you have a very good recollection of what you post on here. Short term memory problems maybe??

Do you remember saying this?? Would I blacklist him? No simply because I don't keep a running blacklist. Would I group with him if it happened in a group I am in, hell yea I would. That line there is what the blacklisting comment I made was, lol you might want to try and remember stuff you post before you try and accuse people of not being able to read

Well then maybe we are arguing semantics. I wont blacklist someone based on this thread (for loot practices) I will if I see the offender do it in a raid Im in and judge him to be a greedy a$$hat and not a new guy trying to get a little cash together. Are we on the same page now?

[Healsavant]

But that's the side of the story we're talking about...

"Hey, this guy totally stole this old ladies' purse"

"Wow, that guy is a jerk!"

"Nah, that guy is okay..."

"How can you say that? He stole her purse!"

"Oh, that's just one side of the story"

<facepalm>

Well, duh.... if wizard could USE a +3 CHA tome, the responses here would be different... We're discussing how we all feel about someone taking a +3 tome and vendoring it... That is a JERK action... Sure, if it didn't happen, then the wizard wasn't a jerk... Thanks, Captain Obvious!

well....ya it is only 1 side however there has to be some truth and here is why I make this statement.....If said caster saw this in the chest and said "wow a +3 tome that I can actually use" and loots it this thread wouldnt be here, however....and here is where we must all start making assumptions because this we do not know, I have to assume he has already eaten a +3 tome otherwise why wouldnt he take it, or maybe he has eaten a +2 and his stats are currently even and said tome would put him at an odd number and he is planning on just waiting for a +4 to keep numbers and bonuses even, and then put it up for offers.....well in that case that would as well be wrong...well unless he has a way to get that 1 more up by gear or by respec, either way if he could get that cha to an even number i cant see why he would put it up for a roll IF he actually needed it.

I could go on and on and one my point was just to show the validity of the 1 side you have heard....BTW most of ya know my ranger and all he needs is +3 int and +3wis, both of which I can use....any other tomes will be up for a roll

[Kalari]

Hmm another heated Sarlona debate why the hell arent you people playing instead of feeding into this mess?

Either way my point of view is this the wizard could do whatever he wanted with that tome, he just would not be invited to any group I make up. Why? Because I believe that when people work together in a raid the fair and nice thing to do when something you cant use comes up in the chest is to allow others to roll on it. Why? Because that wizard probably couldnt have done the raid on his own, maybe he could of but guareentee the others helped contribute. Ive had plenty of nice things drop in chests tumbleweeds, tomes, bracers and the like that I could not use at the time so I allowed people to roll on them or passed them to people who were really looking for them. And you know what? when the time for my turn to need a piece of raid loot came up it was remembered "hey she's a team player."

So yes all you guys/gals who say "its his loot he should do what he wants" fine you group with that player and have fun. The rest of us will continue to work together as a team share the wealth and be well rounded for it. While the selfish players can continue to find smaller pools to tap when it comes to good raid groups.

Thats my 2cp on this.

[Visty]

either way if he could get that cha to an even number i cant see why he would put it up for a roll IF he actually needed it.

who knows, maybe he did choose between 500kplat* or +1 umd. as as noone offered the money he choose umd

*made up number

[Quikster]

I'm probably stepping into something I don't really want to, but I feel like I need to voice my opinion on this too, even if it's stuff said before or being written as I type to post. Oh, and do feel free to add, agree, disagree with points made, as I don't have all info, only going by what I have understood of the thread so far. So do point me out if I'm missing something.

Firstly, I wouldn't label someone (the wiz) as being greedy and action taken on them (blacklist, ignore, whatever) yet for a few points:

1. We don't actually know what the Wiz meant by saying "I don't need it".

I wasn't there, a good deal of us wasn't there either. I can only say that "I don't need it" can mean a lot more other things than "I've got base stats of 50 everywhere, and I've used said tome before too, I don't need it". I don't remember the original poster putting up exactly what this Wiz said, only what they remember of the conversation taken place. And this is only one sided. You should treat it as such and only put caution on when encountering this Wiz, not act on it as if it's unbiased, not mistaken, not misunderstood or something along those lines at this point. Any other response would seem unfair and rather harsh.

Personally, I would apply a Innocent unless I can prove they are guilty. If I see another +3 Cha tome that is unshared, and they aren't saving up for some rediculously extortinately priced item on the AH, then I would say (at most) greedy then. But not before.

2. Need. Who really needed it?

Again, I don't have transcript or full details, but the original poster said that others "could" have used it. Unless these others come up to post and say that yes, they had a "need" for one and "could" have used it. ie They haven't used a +3 Con already, or it would actually make a difference to their rolls. I wouldn't really class it as "need".

In the beta, I was rather notorious for pulling tomes on a continuous basis. I only started to pull the +2's near the end, but would it actually be greed if I pulled one and used it on my Monk character first? I certainly don't "need" it, but would certainly be useful. Again, back to defining the word of "need" at the moment (like point 1).

Hence, why I would suggest caution and restraint on instantly "blacklisting" this Wiz. Whatever "blacklisting" means to you. For me, it means total nothing to do with them.

3. Back about the AH. Did anyone else actually offer anything when the offer was made?

According to the original poster, no one even offered anything. If one person said to the Wiz, I'd like to offer you all I have (5k plat only; total fortune), there was engagement. Rejected. But still engagement. Right now, from what the original poster has said, none of this even happened (please do add info if this was not the case). Which means no one even said they wanted as far as I'm concerned (My view only); as no one expressed interest.

Since we don't know if the Wiz was looking for plat to buy stuff that's clearly over inflated in the AH. It can't be expressed as greed, as they might "need" something in the AH. They are simply not "trading" with anyone in the group, as no one expressed interest. But they have "need" of it, as it's being changed to AH capital.

Now, unless you know for a fact that this person has got EVERYTHING already, then it should not be classed as greed.

For example, I pulled every +1 tome available inside 2 days in the beta. With multiples of each. I also had money for the AH and didn't need to use them again as they won't work. If I pulled and wanted to trade and got no offers, and then decided to take it, THEN would I be greedy. But of course, you know all this as I just told you. We don't know about this Wiz at this time. Again, should not be instantly "acted" (blacklisted) on straight away. (For the record, I gave most tomes away unless I needed an item in the AH which I could clearly not get, as I did not have access to that adventure pack).

Make no mistake, I am not saying anyone is wrong, or is right. Only that I have noted that many seems to have jumped into the action stage before finding this Wiz and seeing what their half of the story is. Personally, I would only have heightened caution, and not all out action (blacklist) of this character (Wiz). As it is totally out of proportion for only one side of the story.

Err, that's about it really. But, I feel that those should be addressed first before something as major as blacklisting is done.

J1NG

While I respect you point of view and your points take into consideration the following information.

1. +3 tomes in the reaver are bound. This is the point when peeps mention raid loot. Bound loot that when looted you will not have another crack at that chest for 2 days 18 hours etc, or until youre off timer.

2. While he may have made a few hunder K plat for selling it in the raid, many play by the understanding that uneeded loot is put up for roll. Let me explain why. When I put together a reaver, it is a courtesy that I fill the group. I dont need a full group to win in the reaver. Many players dont need a full group to win in the reaver, of course there are many more that have difficulty winning even with a full group lol. On a typical friday night I can look at the guild list/who list and get at least 2 peeps together to win in reaver. Why should I bother filling it? Many peeps dont like or refuse to lead groups, often waiting until an lfm goes up. The same goes for any of the raids. My guild can shortman any current raid in the game on elite. why should we fill it? It usually becomes just a little easier, we get a chance to meet new people, and more raid loot drops.

3. If in fact the offender didnt need it, and wanst going to eat it, he gains nothing by looting it. Not even much plat to by something off the ah. So IMO you either are going to use bound raid loot or your not. If your going to use it, then use it. If your not, then give it to someone who will, weather you put it up for roll, pass it to a friend, or just randomly assign it to someone you think can use it. But dont offer it for auction. If you do that, you wont be raiding in my groups anymore (which is not a big deal. Im not sure why peeps are attacking me for putting this up. There are lots of raids put up everyday, and if their loot practices are seen as appropriate they shouldn't have any problem getting into groups.

Welcome to DDO this debate has been going on for a while. And constantly I am seen as selfish for my point of view by many of the posters in these forums, but never has anyone reported I was selfish in game so i dunno.

[Kerrn_Siff]

Hmm another heated Sarlona debate why the hell arent you people playing instead of feeding into this mess?

Because this even is now more fun than doing our 2,926,827,609,837th Shroud?

[Quikster]

well....ya it is only 1 side however there has to be some truth and here is why I make this statement.....If said caster saw this in the chest and said "wow a +3 tome that I can actually use" and loots it this thread wouldnt be here, however....and here is where we must all start making assumptions because this we do not know, I have to assume he has already eaten a +3 tome otherwise why wouldnt he take it, or maybe he has eaten a +2 and his stats are currently even and said tome would put him at an odd number and he is planning on just waiting for a +4 to keep numbers and bonuses even, and then put it up for offers.....well in that case that would as well be wrong...well unless he has a way to get that 1 more up by gear or by respec, either way if he could get that cha to an even number i cant see why he would put it up for a roll IF he actually needed it.

I could go on and on and one my point was just to show the validity of the 1 side you have heard....BTW most of ya know my ranger and all he needs is +3 int and +3wis, both of which I can use....any other tomes will be up for a roll

But imo here is the difference. he didnt put it up for roll. He put it up for auction. IDC if he loots a tome that isnt his primary casting stat. I expect him too. I think peeps should eat the highest avail tome in every stat. Anyone not trying to get their stats to the highest usable number is, i dunno , different from me i guess

[Kalari]

Quite simply if the guy handnt said "what will you give me for this" most of us would have chalked it up to "hey maybe he needs it. My main has a decent charisma for sure umding wands helps her out in a pinch as well as the occasional raise dead scroll so I know umd is important. And im pretty sure if I said "hey guys Kal needs this" no one would question that.

But its different if I said "man a +3 tome give me money and you can have this!" I know its that persons loot but its my right to think "many that is a greedy person." Im not saying my view is right or wrong just how I personally feel the person taking the tome handled the situation from what I read. As someone who thinks its fair to share the wealth and knows you can benefit in the long run doing so I wish that person well. He/she still would not be welcomed in my groups.

[Cashiry]

PM name please...

I let people roll on raid loot all the time, if my charchter can't use it... this is one person who doesnt deserve to roll on others loot IMO... If he/she is going to be this way...

Cash out...

[Kalari]

Because this even is now more fun than doing our 2,926,827,609,837th Shroud?

lol ya got to do it with drinking game rules I swear its the only raid I enjoy right now due to trying to kill each other repeatedly to take another drink

[Kerrn_Siff]

lol ya got to do it with drinking game rules I swear its the only raid I enjoy right now due to trying to kill each other repeatedly to take another drink

lol if I see a LFM up for 'Drinking Game Shroud' I'll hop in next time. Need to get more scotch though first.

[Kalari]

Hehe thats It I got to get Kreeg kickstarted into converting more shrouds into drinking game rules its not like we both dont drink either way but the more people involved the more fun it is hehe ^_^

[Quikster]

lol if I see a LFM up for 'Drinking Game Shroud' I'll hop in next time. Need to get more scotch though first.

LL does it as a rule. Join a LL raid on monday morning and you'll be drunk till wednesday

[Niclos]

He probably asked for a couple remove poison, curse, and disease potions. When no one could do that he probably asked for some repair or cure potions and the group couldn't even do that. Then he probably said anyone who can gh themselves will automatically get it and when he was the only one that could do that he took it.

[Kerrn_Siff]

LL does it as a rule. Join a LL raid on monday morning and you'll be drunk till wednesday

my people might be curious as to why the boss is drunk and yelling "Here's your fkn hjeal, slotard!" at his PC in his office on a monday morning.

no.. no wait.. nm I guess that's probably close to normal.

[J1NG]

Hello, thank you for the warm welcome.

While I respect you point of view and your points take into consideration the following information.

1. +3 tomes in the reaver are bound. This is the point when peeps mention raid loot. Bound loot that when looted you will not have another crack at that chest for 2 days 18 hours etc, or until youre off timer.

Er, I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with bound items from the game yet, I'll give you a quick short story in a mo when I was in beta. But in the case here, whether bound or not, from what I know, I believe it becomes bound after you pick it up. I can see where you are coming from, and certainly understand and agree (to a certain extent). The reason for my hesitation is again, due to lack of information on this Wiz's situation. Until I have more information, I'm just not happy with taking anything more than caution when meeting or working with them.

2. While he may have made a few hunder K plat for selling it in the raid, many play by the understanding that uneeded loot is put up for roll. Let me explain why. When I put together a reaver, it is a courtesy that I fill the group. I dont need a full group to win in the reaver. Many players dont need a full group to win in the reaver, of course there are many more that have difficulty winning even with a full group lol. On a typical friday night I can look at the guild list/who list and get at least 2 peeps together to win in reaver. Why should I bother filling it? Many peeps dont like or refuse to lead groups, often waiting until an lfm goes up. The same goes for any of the raids. My guild can shortman any current raid in the game on elite. why should we fill it? It usually becomes just a little easier, we get a chance to meet new people, and more raid loot drops.

That's very nice of you But on an unbiased view of this situation including your style of play, I can say that your style of play is very honourable and nice. But it still excludes the possibility of someone needing something elsewhere that they might be able to get with their raid loot. Again, not saying the Wiz, you, OP is right or wrong, just an observation that I feel should not be overlooked.

I post this as I note that some people might get the wrong impression from some posts and decide to go all the way and go total blacklist. So just want people to not be so jumpy is all.

3. If in fact the offender didnt need it, and wanst going to eat it, he gains nothing by looting it. Not even much plat to by something off the ah. So IMO you either are going to use bound raid loot or your not. If your going to use it, then use it. If your not, then give it to someone who will, weather you put it up for roll, pass it to a friend, or just randomly assign it to someone you think can use it. But dont offer it for auction. If you do that, you wont be raiding in my groups anymore (which is not a big deal. Im not sure why peeps are attacking me for putting this up. There are lots of raids put up everyday, and if their loot practices are seen as appropriate they shouldn't have any problem getting into groups.

I agree with what you've said here, but personally, I feel (very important, that's my opinion only) that applies to only the circumstance of if the Wiz was totally unable to use it, had no need of money for something, or if the others were even able to use it as well first. Otherwise, totally agree.

Welcome to DDO this debate has been going on for a while. And constantly I am seen as selfish for my point of view by many of the posters in these forums, but never has anyone reported I was selfish in game so i dunno.

Again, thank you for the warm welcome.

The Quick Story:

As you have noticed, new here. Anyway, I managed to (somehow) get to the top end of my class by end of the beta (20). But prior to that, I went on a small adventure with some others in, er... Somewhere. It's where that Level 19 quest for those new items was. Anyway, during that adventure, we were looting a chest, I quickly zoomed in, did a "loot all", got asked if I really wanted this item as it would bind (by the DM thing). Now, I was totally new there, but you might not realise that since I'm like Level 18 or something. So I clicked OK. Thinking it's like more crafting stuff like the Vale. Boy was I wrong, I picked up a Amrath Belt instead. Which two others clearly should have been given. But I was clueless until we had a bit of time to slow down and I took a closer look at it. It was then I knew the big mistake I did.

If these others I was with thought like some on this thread, I would have been blacklisted big time. But they were very nice and gave me the benefit of the doubt. They even gave me a choice of a Kensai or Shintao Cord when they got one.

(Now, I know that the Wiz was not new, but still, not all cirumstance was known is still my reason for not going all the way to outright ban/blacklist is all I'm saying in the end regarding the Wiz, not yet anyway)

Again, thanks for the warm welcome. See you out there!

J1NG

[Quikster]

Hmm another heated Sarlona debate why the hell arent you people playing instead of feeding into this mess?
snip

Look whos talking miss 3k + posts

[Kalari]

Hehe im a multitasker besides little man is in hyper mode and if I get too wrapped up in gaming i may find the walls painted or something broken lol. I'll be playing soon but these forum posts are better then soap operas