Dwarf or WF Intimitank biulds??

[justjeff]

I'd love to hear from people who have built a successful dwarven intimitank. I had been set on building my intimitank as a human for the extra skill pts, cha, and feat. But dwarven and WF stats are so much better suited for tanks. Can I build a good tank with intimidate off those classes? Do the skill pts and smidge higher Cha have a real effect once I get my toon capped?

Obviously I need to do some searching, but I was hoping to hear from players who've built one. How useful is intimidate at higher lvls? As a general rule do casters create enough crowd control that intimidate isn't all that useful?

If I do go with intimidate how far should I go with it? I was thinking go with tower shields, shield block feats and combat expertise. I had always built tanks with low Int and higher Dex for mith fullplate so I've never messed with combat expertise much.

Any input and/or links to appropriate threads would be appreciated.

[Goldeneye]

Intimidate is very useful at higher levels. Since it doesn't have a save, or Spell Resistance, it only depends on how high your intim is. As a result it is a very effective method of control.

I suggest Human, remember:
Human Dragonmark: Least Dragonmark of Sentinel: +2 Intim
Human Enhancements: Deneith Intimidate (up to +4)
Human Extra Feat: (Bullheaded, or Skill Focus Intim)
Human Extra Skill Points: one more +1 stat / level

as a result, for intimidating, Humans are the best.
However, dwarves and warforged can have slightly higher total HP

A friend of mine build a super-high Intimidate fighter you should take a look at HERE. Might give you some inspiration.

[valorik]

Intimidate is very useful at higher levels. Since it doesn't have a save, or Spell Resistance, it only depends on how high your intim is. As a result it is a very effective method of control.

I suggest Human, remember:
Human Dragonmark: Least Dragonmark of Sentinel: +2 Intim
Human Enhancements: Deneith Intimidate (up to +4)
Human Extra Feat: (Bullheaded, or Skill Focus Intim)
Human Extra Skill Points: one more +1 stat / level

as a result, for intimidating, Humans are the best.
However, dwarves and warforged can have slightly higher total HP

A friend of mine build a super-high Intimidate fighter you should take a look at HERE. Might give you some inspiration.

Dwarves have higher ac as well as hp, and to be honest you don't need a 60 unbuffed intim for any of the raids. I'm not suer how much you'll need for horoth or any of the otehr new bosses, but I'm not placing my bets that you'll need about 70 intim for anything but elite.

[Aranticus]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=171420

[Borror0]

Do the skill pts and smidge higher Cha have a real effect once I get my toon capped?

High Cha is good but, usually, does not make much of a difference. As a dwarf, I highly suggest the 16/15/14/12/8/12 starting stats.

How useful is intimidate at higher lvls?

Very useful, in certain quests. There are quests or fights where it is useless.

The reasons are that either the monster has a too high DC and cannot be reliably Intimidated, as is the case of Suulomades. That part will be addressed in Module 9, as Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys will provide stances to increase aggro through DPS.

The other case are fights where the nature of the fight itself does not lend itself to intimitanking (Harry, Beholders, etc.). That is why it is important for a tank to be able to swap to TWF or THF. Another reason being able to swap to THF or TWF is important is that two intimitanks are usually overkill. By being able to increase your DPS, you're making yourself much more useful to the party.

As a general rule do casters create enough crowd control that intimidate isn't all that useful?

It depends on the party, the casters you run with, etc.

Short answer, it is possible for a caster to cover the CC but not always (hence the need to be versatile).

If I do go with intimidate how far should I go with it? I was thinking go with tower shields, shield block feats and combat expertise. I had always built tanks with low Int and higher Dex for mith fullplate so I've never messed with combat expertise much.

Combat Expertise is a must have if you want to tank.

Any input and/or links to appropriate threads would be appreciated.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124254
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174962

as a result, for intimidating, Humans are the best.

Unless you can find me an human intimitank who can hit Horoth 100% of the time, be a good tank and prove that Horoth is worth intimitanking, I will doubt that claim.

PS: Horoth has a DC higher than 66.

[jmonty]

i like my dwarf 2 fighter / 14 pally for intimi-tanking but all fighter would allow for much more versatility. for dps i switch to a min II greatax but twf would be better, but i do like the access to the zeal spell (+10% attack speed).

basically he has a buffed and blocking ac of 75, unbuffed intim 53, unbuffed hp of 404 with an intim helm on instead of the minos, unbuffed saves are for 31, reflex 23, and will 22 with a kardin's eye.

feats i took: combat expertise, toughness, power attack, improved crit slashing, bullheaded, skill focus: intimidate, extend (it's annoying to have to rebuff pally spells more often) and bullheaded.

base stats at 16:

str--19

dex--14

con--12

int--11

wis--10

cha--14

eventually i got a +2 tome for all stats but i started with a +2 int so i could guarantee CE. one lvl up point i put into dex and the rest into str, because i thought a 1 higher dex would optimize my max dex in mithral fp, but currently i have dragon touched armor with heavy fort and +3 dodge so dex is less of an important stat.

edit: oopps, i didn't realize i was on the khyber forums. =/

oh, and another strength of this build is the 3 or 4 lay on hands which hit for 200 each (while wearing the hound bracers with healing amp on them).

[Goldeneye]

jmonty has a very good point.
You need to decide if you want to play a fighter or a paladin.
I would go over the benefits of each, but there are very very many.

Basically it comes down to:

Fighter:
-Bajillion Feats, you can get everything you want
-Basic Enhancement Choices
-Ability to go Kensai for big dps booste

Paladin:
-No extra feats, but very nice class-granted activites
-Spells
-Intim not a class skill for some reason
-Lay on Hands = healing abilities
-Very nice at fighting outsiders come mod 9

[Borror0]

-Bajillion Feats, you can get everything you want

It would be best to describe this as "enough feats to grab TWF and feats to boost your Intimidate".

Then, you should point out that this task is much harder for the paladin.

-Basic Enhancement Choices

Even I don't get what you mean here.

-Ability to go Kensai for big dps booste

Why would an intimitank do that?

Paladin:

You got the to mention the possibly to keep aggro via DPS without having to slip in Defensive Stance.

-No extra feats, but very nice class-granted activites

That's very vague.

It would be better to say: lower maximum buffed AC, insanely high saves, iimmunity to disease and fear.

-Spells

Saying "spells" is misleading.

Rather, it would be better to describe it as "the need to self0buff yourself every two minutes or so to keep up with the fighter".

-Intim not a class skill for some reason

It's called 3.5 D&D and this game is based on it.

In that game, simply being a fighter makes it much easier to learn to be intimidating if you are a paladin and simply being a wizard means that jumping and climbing are very hard tasks to learn compared to a fighter.

-Lay on Hands = healing abilities

It would be best to describe this is limited uses of healing bursts than simply "healing".

It gets the message across better.

-Very nice at fighting outsiders come mod 9

Assuming that he goes KotC, yes, but we don't know whether it's a good idea or not.

Maybe, but presenting that as an advantage is presumptuous.

[TechNoFear]

It would be better to say: lower maximum buffed AC,

This is not nesessarily true, though I agree it is generally true but only if the fighter has a paladin in range. As soon as the fighter does not the paladin has a higher AC.

Dwarven paladins will have very similar AC as fighters (and if AC is your aim, dwarf is the choice).

As we are discussing tanks, both fighter and paladin will struggle to leverage more than 3 in Armor Mastery as it will req a starting Dex over 14.
[DT FP == 1; Defender == 2; AM3 == 3 which reqs 22 Dex. Unless you have a +4 tome, racial Dex enh or an excp Dex item this means starting with 13-14 Dex]

Rather, it would be better to describe it as "the need to self0buff yourself every two minutes or so to keep up with the fighter".

This implies a paladin never exceeds a fighter, which is not true.

My paladin tank gets +7 damage from DF and DM and +10% speed (starting at 14th) and keeps these up 100% of the time in the Shroud (when req).
This will increase to +9 and up to +2D6 at 20th (but a pure fighter will get the speed increase).
This is applied equally to both weps when he is TWF (a fighter can never match this).

Could you explain how a fighter gains a constant +14 - 18 Str (over a paladin)?

You also did not point out that a (hate based) paladin can use Smites to get aggro or do burst DPS the fighter can't.

[Borror0]

This is not nesessarily true, though I agree it is generally true but only if the fighter has a paladin in range. As soon as the fighter does not the paladin has a higher AC.

That is why I used the word "buffed" over the expression "self-buffed".

As we are discussing tanks, both fighter and paladin will struggle to leverage more than 3 in Armor Mastery as it will req a starting Dex over 14.
[DT FP == 1; Defender == 2; AM3 == 3 which reqs 22 Dex. Unless you have a +4 tome, racial Dex enh or an excp Dex item this means starting with 13-14 Dex]

No, that is not the reason. 15 Dex is easy to fit in. The reason is that paying 6 APs for +1 AC is pretty expensive.

Usually, as much as possible, intimitanks should stay away from the third tier of Fighter Armor Mastery and Dwarven Armor Mastery.

This implies a paladin never exceeds a fighter, which is not true.

I used "keep up" to mean "remain in the same ballpark".

If you prefer, paladins have to put much more efforts to be effective than fighters have to.

My paladin tank gets +7 damage from DF and DM and +10% speed (starting at 14th) and keeps these up 100% of the time in the Shroud (when req).

A pure fighter gets +10% speed from Melee Alacrity and +7 damage from Prayer, Greater Weapon Specialization and Fighter Weapon Specialization.

Which wins is thus left to a complicated calculation involving:

• Evaluating the DPS loss that keeping Divine Might, Zeal and Divine Favor entail in long fights
• Evaluating the DPS improvement that Divine Sacrifice and Smite Evil represent
• Evaluating the DPS improvement that Fighter Haste Boost represent

This will increase to +9 and up to +2D6 at 20th

This assumes that a pure paladin is a viable choice for an intimitank and that an 18 base Cha is easy to obtain on a dwarf.

I disagree to both of these assumptions.

This is applied equally to both weps when he is TWF (a fighter can never match this).

Ironically, as shown above, a fighter can and it is more easy for him to grab TWF.

Your proposed pure paladin would barely have the feats required:
1. Toughness
3. Combat Expertise
6. Power Attack
9. TWF
12. Improved Critical
15. ITWF
18. GTWF

However, under this feat selection, a fighter could grab khopesh for a +4ish equivalent of damage per hit.

You also did not point out that a (hate based) paladin can use Smites to get aggro or do burst DPS the fighter can't.

Yes, paladins can front-load their DPS to quickly gain aggro with Smite Evil. I forgot about that.

[TechNoFear]

+7 damage from Prayer,

I don't think it is reasonable to add Prayer to only the fighter (as Prayer is not a fighter ability and is actually a paladin spell).

but over long fights, maintaining Divine Favor and Zeal entail a DPS loss.

Actually it is a DPS loss only in fights shorter than the duration (if you cast it during the fight).
If the spell runs its full duration you gain max effect, so longer fights are better. The less remaining duration the spells have when the fight ends the better.



Considering only the case of casting during combat and the combat continuing until the buffs ends.

Zeal gives a 9-10% increase in DPS but does not take 9-10% of the duration to cast (1-2%), therefor it is a nett increase in DPS.

DF adds 8.15 DPS to a 16 lvl TWF and so is a loss in DPS if you exceed ~245 DPS (if it is 2 sec to cast and don't extend).
DF is also an increase if the +3 to hit has any effect (changes 1 miss to a hit) which could be a possibility with -7 from CE and a twr shield in tank mode.
This will not be true in EU due to faster swing rates and DFs longer duration.


DM +2 is 5.5 DPS 16 TWF (loss if exceeds ~165 DPS).
DM +4 is 11.1 DPS 16 TWF (loss if exceeds ~330 DPS).
DM +6 is 16.6 DPS 16 TWF (loss if exceeds ~495 DPS).


Toughtness will probably change to Extend, as a DoS3 will probably not have the APs to take much advantage of Toughness.

This means (in EU) Zeal, DF and Angel Skin will all last just under 5 mins (which hopefully should be longer than a cleric's mana or Harry does on elite).


[This is probably pointless. I have to test again in EU with the new content, but think DoS is not going to be effective. IMO the movement penalty from the DoS stance is a game breaker for a class that has so many one off attacks (Smite, DS) and other DPS losses (rebuffs).]

[Borror0]

I don't think it is reasonable to add Prayer to only the fighter (as Prayer is not a fighter ability and is actually a paladin spell).

Prayer is a Luck bonus and therefore does not stack with the Luck bonus of Divine Favor.

Actually it is a DPS loss only in fights shorter than the duration (if you cast it during the fight).
If the spell runs its full duration you gain max effect, so longer fights are better. The less remaining duration the spells have when the fight ends the better.

No, that's incorrect. If the fights are shorter, a good paladin can jump to cast his spells and therefore suffer a meaningless loss of speed. (Note: This assumes a good Jump score but every tank should have a good Jump score.) If the fight lasts longer than the spell or enhancement's duration, then the bonus to DPS is lower than advertised.

For example, if your paladin has to stop and cast Divine Might II against Harry, the total bonus to DPS is not of hits_per_second*4 but rather of (hits_per_second*4) - (activation_animation_duration*DPS_sans_DM) which will always yield a value lower than swings_per_minute*4 and can even be a negative value.

Take note that when I said "Evaluating the DPS loss that keeping Divine Might, Zeal and Divine Favor entail in long fights" I was referring to evaluating those moments of inefficiencies. I was not suggesting that using those effects resulted in a net DPS loss.

DF adds 8.15 DPS to a 16 lvl TWF and so is a loss in DPS if you exceed ~245 DPS (if it is 2 sec to cast and don't extend).

Why you keep mentioning TWF in a discussion about paladin and fighter intimitanks still escapes me.

DM +6 is 16.6 DPS 16 TWF (loss if exceeds ~495 DPS).

Still have not explain how a dwarf intimitank will grab that one.

Toughtness will probably change to Extend

A loss of 82-102 HP will not go unnoticed. It will hurt, a lot.

[...] as a DoS3 will probably not have the APs to take much advantage of Toughness.

Incorrect. A DoS III will have to make painful sacrifices to take advantage of Toughness.

[Aranticus]

I don't think it is reasonable to add Prayer to only the fighter (as Prayer is not a fighter ability and is actually a paladin spell).

Actually it is a DPS loss only in fights shorter than the duration (if you cast it during the fight).
If the spell runs its full duration you gain max effect, so longer fights are better. The less remaining duration the spells have when the fight ends the better.

Considering only the case of casting during combat and the combat continuing until the buffs ends.

Zeal gives a 9-10% increase in DPS but does not take 9-10% of the duration to cast (1-2%), therefor it is a nett increase in DPS.

DF adds 8.15 DPS to a 16 lvl TWF and so is a loss in DPS if you exceed ~245 DPS (if it is 2 sec to cast and don't extend).
DF is also an increase if the +3 to hit has any effect (changes 1 miss to a hit) which could be a possibility with -7 from CE and a twr shield in tank mode.
This will not be true in EU due to faster swing rates and DFs longer duration.

DM +2 is 5.5 DPS 16 TWF (loss if exceeds ~165 DPS).
DM +4 is 11.1 DPS 16 TWF (loss if exceeds ~330 DPS).
DM +6 is 16.6 DPS 16 TWF (loss if exceeds ~495 DPS).

Toughtness will probably change to Extend, as a DoS3 will probably not have the APs to take much advantage of Toughness.

This means (in EU) Zeal, DF and Angel Skin will all last just under 5 mins (which hopefully should be longer than a cleric's mana or Harry does on elite).

[This is probably pointless. I have to test again in EU with the new content, but think DoS is not going to be effective. IMO the movement penalty from the DoS stance is a game breaker for a class that has so many one off attacks (Smite, DS) and other DPS losses (rebuffs).]

the fighter will also be able to max out str whereas the pally has more stats to take care of. since the pally will be self buffing with DF and zeal so frequently, it is harder to fit in that madstone boots which a fighter can use 100% of the time. in addition to that, a fighter also has the ability to go kensai and maintain 70+ AC and 60 intim, which my build is going to be, and get a +8 to str with power surge. the kensai also have other melee prowress. another point to take note that the fighter has haste boost which gives it +30% melee speed

[justjeff]

I haven't had time to really read the replies and links, but I've scanned over them. Maybe I've been building my tanks wrong all this time? I've always gotten Con and Str as high as I could, bump Dex as far as the remaining would let me and pretty much left Int, Wis, and Cha. Every so often I'd bump Wis a little to keep me from having a negative on will saves.

Now granted we're talking about intimidate specced, but from the reading I've done, the links suggest that more well rounded stats are the way to go regardless of the build.

I definitely have some reading to do and may put off rolling up a tank till I build up a library of tomes. My bank only has a few +1, I gave away my +2's to friends. I may start doing some loot runs in between lvling up my rogue and cleric. Wait a bit for the tank.

[Emili]

I haven't had time to really read the replies and links, but I've scanned over them. Maybe I've been building my tanks wrong all this time? I've always gotten Con and Str as high as I could, bump Dex as far as the remaining would let me and pretty much left Int, Wis, and Cha. Every so often I'd bump Wis a little to keep me from having a negative on will saves.

Now granted we're talking about intimidate specced, but from the reading I've done, the links suggest that more well rounded stats are the way to go regardless of the build.

I definitely have some reading to do and may put off rolling up a tank till I build up a library of tomes. My bank only has a few +1, I gave away my +2's to friends. I may start doing some loot runs in between lvling up my rogue and cleric. Wait a bit for the tank.

What you are seeing is the typical intimitank has a INT capable of adding CE to the build. Prime on an intimidator are Str Dex Con and min Int to reach CE and possible some shore up points in Wis for Will and Cha to help Intimidate. The smart fighter/pally always has CE as an option (that's 5 more ac)... not to mention both classes are so skill point starved anything over helps out in so many other ways... Just the other day I had some silly dwarf pally/fighter tank yelling at my ranger/rogue (who btw is only 12 parts ranger) for a jump spell ... bloody put in a few points or get a clickie already! I do not keep jump loaded on her because Ram's and Resist are more important to me - since she's only 2 1st level slots.

My Emili (a pure human fighter) - mind you she's old but stands typically at 34 24 22 16 16 10 dressed right now (I like to toggle in a +6 int ring (22) for runes and such)... TWF Khopesh, full SWF,GWS and PA/CE stance toggles and while I kind of wished I started with 12 Int instead of 14 (would had put those 2 in con), she could possible swing being a decent tank or a full DPS human just by feat, enhancement and items. Max'd rank Intimidate, some jump, tumble, spot, etc.. Come mod 9 I am going Kensai with her but would be just as easy an enhancement switch to defender... What I am saying is do not peg the toon so hard for the goal, leave some leway to adjust to as many paths after it's capped as you can.

Aranticus' breakdown in his build is sound and solid ... adjust for any race and splash if you feel fit to do so.

[Eurytos]

Here's my take on a Stalwart Defender: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=197341

All the AC, Hit Points and Intimidate a proper tank could ever need, with all the DPS goodies to keep up in Shroud or other DPS intensive encounters.

Thanks to Norg and Aspenor for their quick input.


A dwarven version would be very similar except you would be using Dwarven Axes and Great Axes instead of Khopesh/Great Axe. Also, a Dwarf could sacrifice some strength for more dex to add Dwarven Armor Mastery for a grand total of 3 more AC at the cost of a lot of DPS. I was originally going to roll a Dwarf because of the AC, but the DPS sacrifice was too much. A warforged gets 3 less max potential AC, but maintains maximum strength and DPS potential.