13/7 Rogue/Wizard with max INT

[Thrudh]

Just fleshing out an idea that Talon put in my head

The idea here is to cast spells like Glitterdust and Web and Stinking Cloud, etc. Spells with no Spell Resistance... With maxed out INT, the Spell DCs of these would be the same as unheightened wizard/sorc, and only 5 below a heightened wizard/sorc.

Start with an 18 INT (or 20 if drow) and use all level ups on INT.

Go Assasin with crazy high DCs... (Although Acrobat could be cool too, combined with Grease or other slippery spells)


Option 1 - go human, dump dex, go THF

13/7 Human Rogue/Wizard

STR 16
DEX 8
CON 12
INT 18
WIS 8
CHA 8

Feats:
Toughness
THF
ITHF
GTHF
Insightful Reflexes (so evasion still works)
Improved Crit: Pierce
Spell Focus: Conjuration (helps both web and glitterdust)
Spell Focus: Greater Conjuration
Extend
Heighten

------------

Option 2

go drow for more INT, and enough Dex for TWF

STR 11
DEX 15 (need +2 tome)
CON 10
INT 20
WIS 8
CHA 10

(or maybe INT 19 and STR 14)

TWF is a pretty big damage multiplier, but the extra feat on the human is very nice, and the stat placement is better on the human...

What do you all think?

[rimble]

I think it'd be fun. Consider WF to harness that self-healing, would work well with the THF version too. Could make it work with TWF too though, I guess.

[gamblerjoe]

i see 2 problems with that build.

the standard for cc DCs is to heighten them, so u will in fact be behind in that department, not to mention the wizard capstone gives them even more help in that department.

you wont get the 3rd tier of assassin, im not sure exactly what thats going to hurt, but t3 pres seem to be the backbone of all new build concepts.

it might work though. after all, ck does con damage even on a pass, and furthermore reduces ones fort save. most mobs have bad ref and/or will saves, so perhaps your glitterdust and web will still work. lets say you get your int to 42 at lvl 20 (drow: 25 base, 6 ench, 3 exc, 3 inh, 5 feat)(human: 23 base, 6 ench, 3 exc, 4 inh, 6 feat)
with gr spell focus that puts your conj DCs at 33 (10 + 16 int + 2 sf + 1 item + 4 spell lvl.) not terribly shabby, but my 16 sorc currently throws spells at DC 33. at lvl 20 a straight drow wiz w no spell focus will throw spells at DC 37 (10 + 17 int + 1 item + 9 spell lvl.) you wont be terribly far behind, but to get your DCs to that point you will have to actually play the toon up to 20 and take the time to gear him to the max. if u really dont mind being limited to 3 or so spells than the build seems to meet your needs. you could allways go wf to get the extra benefit of self healing, but your max potential DCs will go down by 1.

i suppose another concern might be the fact that you will end up with about 268 hp (plus whatever u get from APs, minos helm and/or shroud hp item if u chose to wear either.)

im not sure how many sp u will end up with, but maxed out it is certainly under 1000. before you hook up on a archmagi item and shroud sp item i assume it will be below 500. im not sure how to calculate it.

[Thrudh]

i see 2 problems with that build.

the standard for cc DCs is to heighten them, so u will in fact be behind in that department, not to mention the wizard capstone gives them even more help in that department.

you wont get the 3rd tier of assassin, im not sure exactly what thats going to hurt, but t3 pres seem to be the backbone of all new build concepts.

it might work though. after all, ck does con damage even on a pass, and furthermore reduces ones fort save. most mobs have bad ref and/or will saves, so perhaps your glitterdust and web will still work. lets say you get your int to 42 at lvl 20 (drow: 25 base, 6 ench, 3 exc, 3 inh, 5 feat)(human: 23 base, 6 ench, 3 exc, 4 inh, 6 feat)
with gr spell focus that puts your conj DCs at 33 (10 + 16 int + 2 sf + 1 item + 4 spell lvl.) not terribly shabby, but my 16 sorc currently throws spells at DC 33. at lvl 20 a straight drow wiz w no spell focus will throw spells at DC 37 (10 + 17 int + 1 item + 9 spell lvl.) you wont be terribly far behind, but to get your DCs to that point you will have to actually play the toon up to 20 and take the time to gear him to the max. if u really dont mind being limited to 3 or so spells than the build seems to meet your needs. you could allways go wf to get the extra benefit of self healing, but your max potential DCs will go down by 1.

i suppose another concern might be the fact that you will end up with about 268 hp (plus whatever u get from APs, minos helm and/or shroud hp item if u chose to wear either.)

im not sure how many sp u will end up with, but maxed out it is certainly under 1000. before you hook up on a archmagi item and shroud sp item i assume it will be below 500. im not sure how to calculate it.

Good breakdown...

Yeah, the biggest problem with a build like this is that it will probably do just fine at the lower levels, but you won't know how it works at end-game until it gets there...

[Delt]

Good breakdown...

Yeah, the biggest problem with a build like this is that it will probably do just fine at the lower levels, but you won't know how it works at end-game until it gets there...

Oh you are incorrect. I *know* how it will work at end game.

Low DC Glitterdust and clouds to achieve the same effect a Radiance weapon. Giving up 7 rogue levels (APs,sneak damage/hit, hp, T3, etc) for the above. Super low Bab (not the end of the world but annoying) and not going either halfer or WF. THF on a build that enjoys most of its DPS from sneak attacks.

How will it work? It'll be gimp. Building gimps for flavor/fun is fine, just understand that before you start.

[Geonis]

I think either style you list would work fine.

I am really tired of people who don't understand the idea that a build can be good at more than 1 thing, rather than great at 1 and sucking at the rest.

I see no reason this build isn't viable, though I personally would lean towards the Drow version. TWF is just way more powerful, especially when doubling the number of sneak attacks and raising you Int more. I would probably drop the starting Int by 1 point though and up Con 2 points and either Str or Dex by 1 to allow a +1 tome to one to alow for ITWF/GTWF or Pwr Atk (instead of Insightful Reflexes).

Int 19 (base) + 2 (APs) + 5 (level ups) + 3 (exceptional) + 3 (tome) + 6 (item) = 38 Int

Dex 16 (Base) + 5 (APs) + 6 (item) + 3 (tome) + 2 (exceptional) = 32 Dex

Plenty for both.

Weapons to dual wield:

http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~delalle..._,holy&altar=3

http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~delalle..._,holy&altar=3

The 2nd rapier, you could substitute +2 insight AC, Grtr Combustion 6, or Flaming Burst for the +1 exceptional Dex.

[Thrudh]

Oh you are incorrect. I *know* how it will work at end game.

Low DC Glitterdust and clouds to achieve the same effect a Radiance weapon. Giving up 7 rogue levels (APs,sneak damage/hit, hp, T3, etc) for the above. Super low Bab (not the end of the world but annoying) and not going either halfer or WF. THF on a build that enjoys most of its DPS from sneak attacks.

How will it work? It'll be gimp. Building gimps for flavor/fun is fine, just understand that before you start.

Hmmm... all depends if the DC is too low... Note the spell focus feats... Even compared to sorcs with heighten, he'd only be 3 DC behind. I'd think that would be good enough...

Plus of course, self-cast haste, displacement, rage, etc.

BAB would be a problem...

I agree that THF is probably not a good idea... need TWF for the sneak attack damage...

The best point that you made is that radiance II rapier is a better way to go than to depend on glitterdust...

Builds matter less and less as our items take up the slack... You see there's a level 15 jump clickable showing up in Mod 9? So much for all those skill points I spent in jump... all worthless now...

Too many magic items...

I was just thinking about building an assassin rogue, and I thought this could be a fun combo... Obviously, not raid optimized, but I care less and less about that these days.

[Thrudh]

I think either style you list would work fine.

I am really tired of people who don't understand the idea that a build can be good at more than 1 thing, rather than great at 1 and sucking at the rest.

I see no reason this build isn't viable, though I personally would lean towards the Drow version. TWF is just way more powerful, especially when doubling the number of sneak attacks and raising you Int more. I would probably drop the starting Int by 1 point though and up Con 2 points and either Str or Dex by 1 to allow a +1 tome to one to alow for ITWF/GTWF or Pwr Atk (instead of Insightful Reflexes).

Int 19 (base) + 2 (APs) + 5 (level ups) + 3 (exceptional) + 3 (tome) + 6 (item) = 38 Int

Dex 16 (Base) + 5 (APs) + 6 (item) + 3 (tome) + 2 (exceptional) = 32 Dex

Plenty for both.

Weapons to dual wield:

http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~delalle..._,holy&altar=3

http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~delalle..._,holy&altar=3

I like that breakdown...

[Trillea]

As much as I hate to say it...

go assassin with highest DC you can get.

Pick up the Sleet Storm spell, and max out your Balance for those 1s you roll.

The reason is this:

Everyone knows that while in a sleet storm, you get auto-sneak attack damage. What many people don't know is that if you are in sneak mode in a sleet storm, every attack you make is a chance to assassinate. With TWF this is 2 shots of assassinate per attack. This makes for a LOT of dead monsters...

[Thrudh]

As much as I hate to say it...

go assassin with highest DC you can get.

Pick up the Sleet Storm spell, and max out your Balance for those 1s you roll.

The reason is this:

Everyone knows that while in a sleet storm, you get auto-sneak attack damage. What many people don't know is that if you are in sneak mode in a sleet storm, every attack you make is a chance to assassinate. With TWF this is 2 shots of assassinate per attack. This makes for a LOT of dead monsters...

oooohhh... nice.... that a bug or a feature?

double ooohhh.. Sleet Storm is conjuration like web and glitterdust... I may have to grind dragon for some boots... This could be a seriously good solo character...

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My wiz 16 seldom needs to use heighten. (but I seldom use her in the highest lvl content either)

And AOE spells tend to find at least one monster that fails his save.

Also, my pure Rogue is about 20-40 Shroud runs shy of a Radiance II.

For those people who have all the greensteel they desire, and whose guildies always cast the spells they would like, to get the most out of their chars....this build is not for you.

Anyway, I don't really know how well a build like that will work @ lvl 20.

But I'll bet the road there will be a lot of fun.

[Thrudh]

See... doesn't that sound like fun??

"I'm a rogue/wizard assassin who kills with sleet storm.... I've got full UMD, can self-cast shield, jump, blur, haste, rage, displacement, firewall, solid fog. I've got max balance, trap skills, hide and move silently"

-----

As opposed to... "I have max DPS for portals and Harry.... and that's all I do"

[Geonis]

BAB would be a problem...

Divine Power clickys, when you need them, but you do hit the magic number of BAB 11 to get your GTWF. As for to hit, with rogue sneak attack to hit and Tharne's, no worries on most mobs.

The best point that you made is that radiance II rapier is a better way to go than to depend on glitterdust...

If you only look at Glitterdust as a sneak attack deal, then yes, the Radiance rapier will be easier, but as an AOE Displacement? Glitterdust is way more effective, and (like Web) ignores SR.

I think that this build would be a lot of fun to play (the important point to me), as well as being effective.

[Geonis]

See... doesn't that sound like fun??

"I'm a rogue/wizard assassin who kills with sleet storm.... I've got full UMD, can self-cast shield, jump, blur, haste, rage, displacement, firewall, solid fog. I've got max balance, trap skills, hide and move silently"

-----

As opposed to... "I have max DPS for portals and Harry.... and that's all I do"

Yes.

[Delt]

As opposed to... "I have max DPS for portals and Harry.... and that's all I do"

You consistently throw this stupid strawman out to support your preference to gimp builds and it's a little grating.

Having great DPS doesn't negate the ability to be self sufficient and versatile....unless you don't understand what those two terms really mean.

If you want to splash a level of bard for the songs, ya, you can "do more"...you can sing a useless song or two. Being able to "do more" doesn't mean it was approached in a way that provides any intelligent utility or trade off in the course of actual gameplay. You seemed determined to not be able to understand that.

Build flavor toons (gimps) all you want, I have my share...but drop the stupid arguement that "DPS toons can't do anything well but hit raid bosses".

[Cyrion]

I Have A Halfing That Is Currently 13/3 Rog/wiz And The Final Plan Is 13/7. I Love Him. He Is Fun To Play And Has A High Survival Rate.

Current Stats

Str 18
Dex 34
Int 36
Con 20
Wis 10
Char 16

Has Good Umd And Can Disable Anything In Game..

It Is A Great Build

[Delt]

I Have A Halfing That Is Currently 13/3 Rog/wiz And The Final Plan Is 13/7. I Love Him. He Is Fun To Play And Has A High Survival Rate.

Current Stats

Str 18
Dex 34
Int 36
Con 20
Wis 10
Char 16

Has Good Umd And Can Disable Anything In Game..

It Is A Great Build

Your numbers aren't possible and fudged somewhere (pretty sure just at a glance).

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I Have A Halfing That Is Currently 13/3 Rog/wiz And The Final Plan Is 13/7. I Love Him. He Is Fun To Play And Has A High Survival Rate.

Current Stats

Str 18
Dex 34
Int 36
Con 20
Wis 10
Char 16

Has Good Umd And Can Disable Anything In Game..

It Is A Great Build

How do you get such a high Int? (and Dex too?)
I have a Drow Wiz that only has 33 Int and 26 Dex, and I've tried to raise both as high as I can. (no Shroud items yet though)

I have two old Int based Rogues (lvl 6/7) that I built to be trap monkeys a long time ago.
I'm planning on one of them taking at least Wiz3 now to try out the Glitterdust idea.

And I want to do a Rog13/Wiz7 like Thrudh's build.
Prob a Drow version. IMO I will need all the Int and Dex I can get to be effective.

Do we know for sure we can buy Drow on the new server?
Might make one there if we can.

(heck, I'm gonna make one somewhere right now and see what stats I can come up with. )

Edit: Spectress on Ghallandra
Drow
10/16/10/20/8/10
TWF
13 X 4 = 52 skills points @ Rog 1 !! Wow!.

I'll take Wiz3 quick as I can. Not sure how to lvl up after that. But I want to play with Glitterdust and SA, ASAP.

[SableShadow]

Everyone knows that while in a sleet storm, you get auto-sneak attack damage. What many people don't know is that if you are in sneak mode in a sleet storm, every attack you make is a chance to assassinate. With TWF this is 2 shots of assassinate per attack. This makes for a LOT of dead monsters...

I carry sleet storm, use it fairly often (I have dragon boots). Never noticed this effect.

Sure, like anything else that grants an SA opportunity, you can stealth and hit your assassinate, but you seem to be saying that every attack made from stealth in a sleet storm gives you an assassinate....this is not matching up with my experience.

What testing have you done to confirm this?

[Riorik]

I've got a low strength build somewhat similar to this. Rogue8/Wizard7/Ranger1 - intended to make it a Rogue12 at cap. Character was a blast to play back when the cap was 10 & 12 - at 14 the weaknesses in it as the game changed around it crippled the character.

I've played around, in the end game, with all sorts of combinations (INT30 btw) including the use of heighten. Even without the feat, the DC's are sufficient, quite often, to land the spells you're wanting to land. Don't worry about DC's.

The low BAB is a killer, along with low strength to actually do damage when you're not eligible for sneak attack. And, you're actually hurting yourself on the assassinate by not having more rogue levels.

What I'd write is, don't go with the low strength route, whatever you do - strength based has many huge benefits including a much wider available list of equipment you can use. You can have fun with the build, just never expect it to be top-DPS or anything like that. I still have fun with mine. Oh, CON10 looks like a problem spot and plan on filling out ALL the skills, especially stealth based ones.