Crossbows - Any reason to use over bows?

[Angelus_dead]

Granted there are times when the Bearded Devil goes for me and I have to spin. However I'm more specifically asking about those occasions when the meleers are in my aiming cone taking on the Bearded Devil who is porting around them so they have to run around to be able to hit him again. I don't have to run around, I never stop hitting him even for a second.

Lol, you admit to staying away from the other players while fighting a Bearded Devil? By not staying in a group with them, you are greatly reducing the effectiveness of your team. That's one of the reason that ranged players get a bad reputation.

Newsflash: When fighting Bearded Devils, everyone should condense onto one point.

Do the statisticians take such things into account?

They could, but an accurate assessment of that topic would make ranged combat look worse, so to be generous it can be left out.

[Zaal]

There's practically no benefit whatsoever in ranging Suulomades in VoD. That was my point. As for Shroud, in part 5, Harry will be able to hit you if you stay within Sneak Attack range (Keep in mind that attempting to be far from him and still get sneak attack causes you to require more healing than a melee). In Part 4, yes, you can sneak attack him outside of his hit range, but in part 4 it is ridiculously easy to avoid damage from him anyway without DPS lag (Assuming you can stay on his backside).

Am not professing that there is a benefit... well avoiding delayed blast fireball but then reflex/evasion kicks in - hopefully. And although I don't know for sure, it might be possible to shield block Suul in an alcove then range him from a safe distance... like i said... dunno...

But my point as not that there is an advantage but instead that you can still range @ close quarters and still do respectable damage.

Part 4 sneak attack outside his hit range? Angelus_dead/Aranticus - care to comment ?

Part 5 as I've said, if things get bad I can back out, heal myself and continue to do damage. Clerics generally target the lead tank with mass heals so not sure how my backing out creates more of a mana drain.

Case in point I ran my cleric though Shroud just this evening and my primary focus was to spam the main tank with mass heals and only when the bulk of the group looked ok would I try to target the really squishy toons.

[Angelus_dead]

Yeah, he asked that on page two - after your assault began.

That's comically dishonest. It was you who started in on the subject of ranged combat effectiveness in post #11, prior to the question being asked about it in #21.

[Zaal]

Newsflash: When fighting Bearded Devils, everyone should condense onto one point.

That might be an easy thing to do if tanks didn't zerg - but perhaps Dungeon Alert will help keep players all in one spot when dealing with enemies that teleport.

Of course cooridinating 6/12 players to all stand in one spot on every occassion necessary - especially with trash? yeah right.

[Zaal]

That's comically dishonest. It was you who started in on the subject of ranged combat effectiveness in post #11, prior to the question being asked about it in #21.

Here we go again. I offered an example to support crossbow, specifically repeater crossbow, attack and you flamed me. And you in doing so caused a chain of events which not only deviated from the OP "original" question, spured a firestorm of controversy.

My attempt was to show favor for crossbow, specifically repeater crossbow, over the traditional bow - and you flamed me. You could have chosen NOT to target me with your "honesty", but you did not.

At least you learned that point blank Rogue ranging gets sneak attack damage, so all was not entirely lost.

[Angelus_dead]

But my point as not that there is an advantage but instead that you can still range @ close quarters and still do respectable damage.

Not with reduced attack rate, reduced critical threat, no strength bonus, and no Power Attack you can't.
Add it all up and the repeater rogue is doing just over half of the DPS.

A non-rogue character is even worse off. Without the Sneak Attack to act as an equalizer, the repeater is even further behind; a repeater fighter does well under half the DPS.

[Angelus_dead]

My attempt was to show favor for crossbow, specifically repeater crossbow, over the traditional bow - and you flamed me. You could have chosen NOT to target me with your "honesty", but you did not.

Yes, I could have chosen to allow your misinformation to stand uncorrected. Instead I pointed out the truth. That's honesty.

At least you learned that point blank Rogue ranging gets sneak attack damage, so all was not entirely lost.

That claim has no resemblance to anything I've written.

[Zaal]

Yes, I could have chosen to allow your misinformation to stand uncorrected. Instead I pointed out the truth. That's honesty.

There was no misinformation.

That claim has no resemblance to anything I've written.

Nope, none at all.

[UltraMonk2]

Lol, you admit to staying away from the other players while fighting a Bearded Devil? By not staying in a group with them, you are greatly reducing the effectiveness of your team. That's one of the reason that ranged players get a bad reputation.

It entirely depends on the situation, however I was mainly giving that as an example scenairo. Before I join a group I send a tell explaining to them that I use a HRC, very few groups seem to have a problem with that. I've forewarned them appropiately.

I do however have regular players who invite me into their groups on a consistent basis as they have seen how effective I am with a HRC. I bring out a Shield and Axe when the situation warrants it, I've adapted to the other players I group with often, and they have adapted to me. We all work quite well together.

Newsflash: When fighting Bearded Devils, everyone should condense onto one point.

I'm assuming you don't include Wizards, Sorcerors, Healing Clerics and the like in that statement? I can think of a few reasons why your statement could be valid, but what is your reasoning behind it?

They could, but an accurate assessment of that topic would make ranged combat look worse, so to be generous it can be left out.

So does that mean it has never been done? If that is the case how can it make ranged combat look worse when an accurate assessment has never been done? It means that neither you or I know the actual answer.

I understand that there are people out there who have absolutely no love for ranged combat, and for those it may be because of varying reasons. It certainly does not mean that ranged combat is ineffective, it might mean that the meleers in the group don't use the ranged members of the group properly. Same as there are ranged combatants that don't know how to utilize meleers properly. There are also ranged that don't switch to sword and shield when appropiate. I've been in some really good groups that meld all together quite nicely.

[Angelus_dead]

There was no misinformation.

The following is misinformation, because it creates the impression that a repeater can do an impressive level of damage against a Pit Fiend:

I have a build running around with a base 8 STR and wields an array of Heavy RC's and as far as I am concerned is quite effective - especially with IMPROVED CRIT PIECE feat and an array of BURST / BANE repeaters. I have this HOLY BURST of EVIL OUTSIDER BANE hrc that tears our shroud pit fiend to bitz.

The reality is that with 38% more animated attack speed, 10% more Haste bonus, +2 critical threat, 5 more PA damage, and 5 more strength damage, a melee rogue inflicts around twice the damage.

[Zaal]

Not with reduced attack rate, reduced critical threat, no strength bonus, and no Power Attack you can't.
Add it all up and the repeater rogue is doing just over half of the DPS.

A non-rogue character is even worse off. Without the Sneak Attack to act as an equalizer, the repeater is even further behind; a repeater fighter does well under half the DPS.

The damage IS respectable as I pointed out over and over that I can pull the agro away from the tanks...

Please tell me, what is the build to which my HRC Rogue is compared?
This same build that I can take the agro from?

[Angelus_dead]

I do however have regular players who invite me into their groups on a consistent basis as they have seen how effective I am with a HRC.

Repeater fighter, huh? How much damage per hit is that? About 6 base + 5 magic + 7 holy + 6 spec + 9 bard = 33, right? Is there anything else?

I'm assuming you don't include Wizards, Sorcerors, Healing Clerics and the like in that statement?

No, they also converge on one point.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

/sigh

Devils love to port behind the ranged guy making your advantage go away.......briefly.
They then port away again.
And what group do you run with that is so well organised that everyone stands on top of each other like they should?

It can go either way with Devils.

But no. They do not take those things into consideration.

Whether you're right about Devils or not the argument is still valid.
Melee guys spend a lot of time running around swinging in the air.

For example, one reason why I do not like my Monk is because nothing will hold still long enough for me to use my Ki powers on it. (However, I love him in the Shroud)
My Pal also....hard to use those nice smites when every monster is jumping all over the place.

Shroud prt 4...easy to get ranged SA damage.
Prt 5 IMO no advantage with ranged SA over melee SA. You cannot get close enough to range SA him safely....no more than you can by meleeing him in the back anyway.
(although ranged is still safer and IMO smarter)

VoD
I don't do it often, and know I will never find a group willing to experiment here.
But IMO, I don't understand why the same tactics that work in DQ1/2 will not work here also. Seems to me two or more ranged guys could kite him back and forth forever.

Back to the other subject.
In wide open spaces ranged combat rules IMO.
In closed spaces it is bad.
Most dungeons are somewhere in between.

The best builds and players will switch back and forth based on the tactical situation IMO.
I love rangers because they can do both.
I made my Rgr6/Rog9(current) as an attempt to combine the great SA damage a rogue can do, but also have an effective ranged atack option.
My rog16 is great, but she lacks an effective ranged attack. (although I remember way back in STK when I threw a shuriken at a Hobgoblin and saw 1+25 for damage....that was when I realised just how good SA damage is.)

[Angelus_dead]

The damage IS respectable

Your observation in that regard is inaccurate.

as I pointed out over and over that I can pull the agro away from the tanks...

Alright, melee rogues use an enhancement called Subtle Backstabbing which reduces their hate generation by 10% to 40%. It allows them to do a lot more damage without pulling aggro.

Additionally, many things can go wrong causing a tank to have less aggro than he'd like, from wearing a shield for AC to reducing attacks while waiting for heals.

[Zaal]

The following is misinformation, because it creates the impression that a repeater can do an impressive level of damage against a Pit Fiend:

And they can.

The reality is that with 38% more animated attack speed

Thought we discussed already that animated speed isn't necessarly true attack speed.

10% more Haste bonus

Hoping again that you aren't basing this on animation. My repeater build also takes advantage of Haste and fires bolts faster.

+2 critical threat,

That's interesting. School me - where from?

5 more PA damage

At the expense of "to hit" - not buying this.

a melee rogue inflicts around twice the damage.

Still not seeing it nor how this makes a bow better than a crossbow or otherwise.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

And despite my pro-ranged opinions, I'm pretty sure the agro mechanic gives more agro to a guy attacking the monster with a ranged weapon.

Claims about pulling agro off of tanks are not really valid most of the time.

[Aranticus]

Really, how do you know for sure if you don't range? and in this spot do you get sneak damage?

i'm not even referring to ranging in this post but rather as a melee, if you know how to position yourself, you can eliminate alot of hits

[Angelus_dead]

Thought we discussed already that animated speed isn't necessarly true attack speed.

Irrelevant. Due to animation, TWF has 45 more baseline attacks per minute than a repeater.

It's true that once in a while a repeater will "misfire" and the character shoots with nothing coming out, but I am ignoring that effect to be generous.

Hoping again that you aren't basing this on animation. My repeater build also takes advantage of Haste and fires bolts faster.

Ranged attacks gain less of a speed improvement when Haste is cast on them. That should probably be considered a bug.

That's interesting. School me - where from?

Repeater is 17-20/x2. Rapier is 15-20/x2.

At the expense of "to hit" - not buying this.

Yes, Power Attack does entail a penalty to attack rolls. With the many ways to obtain attack bonuses it has never been a problem thus far.

how this makes a bow better than a crossbow or otherwise.

Bow vs repeater crossbow is not the topic. Your claim was that a repeater crossbow is an effective weapon, which implies that it is effective compared to melee attacks.

[Zaal]

Alright, melee rogues use an enhancement called Subtle Backstabbing which reduces their hate generation by 10% to 40%. It allows them to do a lot more damage without pulling aggro.

Really? Would never have guessed that since it's a pre-req for Assassination . Regardless and with SB on, I still pull the agro which I suppose means that I must really doing extra-ordinary damage! Thank you for point that out![/quote]

Additionally, many things can go wrong causing a tank to have less aggro than he'd like, from wearing a shield for AC to reducing attacks while waiting for heals.

Good thing I'm there to dish out more ago.

[Aranticus]

how many vods have you done?

Am not professing that there is a benefit... well avoiding delayed blast fireball but then reflex/evasion kicks in - hopefully.

the dbfb is not as huge a factor in vod compared to shroud 4. most of the time, most melees with resists should have no problems and only taking light damage from it

And although I don't know for sure, it might be possible to shield block Suul in an alcove then range him from a safe distance... like i said... dunno...

uhm.... suulomades can port, i'm sure you know that.... right?

But my point as not that there is an advantage but instead that you can still range @ close quarters and still do respectable damage.

why range when you can do much more dps via melee? the only reason you are not effective is because your feats are used on ranged feats and thus you do not have gtwf which greatly increases your # of attacks

Part 4 sneak attack outside his hit range? Angelus_dead/Aranticus - care to comment ?

if you stand 1/2 way from arraetrikos to the out rim of the centre circle, you should be able to get SA in but the problem is the blades will come in and you will have to move out to prevent being hit and thus lose SA. if you do get hit, the clerics will have to heal you and thus lowers the efficiency of the party

Part 5 as I've said, if things get bad I can back out, heal myself and continue to do damage. Clerics generally target the lead tank with mass heals so not sure how my backing out creates more of a mana drain.

in part 5, the rogue SA is within the attack radius of arraetrikos which means if you are getting SA, you will get hit and thus the clerics will have to target you with a heal and thus stops healing the main party for a second. this compared to meleeing him and recieving the same mass heals is way less efficient in terms of healing

Case in point I ran my cleric though Shroud just this evening and my primary focus was to spam the main tank with mass heals and only when the bulk of the group looked ok would I try to target the really squishy toons.

how many times have you run shroud on your cleric, who are the players you often run with? if a squishy is getting beat up in shroud, he is playing it wrong