Crossbows - Any reason to use over bows?

[Angelus_dead]

Please be so kind as to provide a link to this.

The nerf is that Transmuting no longer provides Good, so most of the repeaters that have previously been used to launch Bane bolts at devil bosses will no longer work. But there will still be the possibility to use a Transmuting of PG repeater, although that's a big step down from a Transmuting of Greater Lawful Bane.

[Aranticus]

There was never an attempt from anyone in this tread to conceal anything - and you didn't address my concern of your unsolicited critique.


Again who is denying or concealing that there are problems?

But with respect to honesty, perhaps you should share positive aspects that a pure ranger can benefit from, like many shot, (improved) precise shot, the 25% bonus rangers get @ lvl 20 capstone. True, the OP is considering a ranged option for a rogue (I think… Not sure he really said that or implied it!), but it seems your position is more focused on ranged attack in general rather than "rogue" ranged attack.


Why?


I don't collect bolts - I do buy them - and per Mod 9, that literally make every one of HRC's transmuting. And yes there is a cost but I suspect the cost is dwarfed by the repair cost of those who do straight melee - and death damage from say Shroud blade lag, lag in general, mana-less clerics, etc...

I therefore DO NOT depend on others as often and I do NOT die as often as others and my costs are signifigantly lower than pure melee toons.

Interesting you point out that I'll do a little less damage with a rapier than say a HRC while the rapier has a faster attack (perhaps it's just me but, seem you just had a realization like up close with a HRC i can still get sneak attack damage??). Can you quantify that? What's the ratio? And if there’s a tangible DPS benefit towards melee, what do you consider enough of a percentage to swing either way?

The damage Arraetriko does in part five is an issue but again, when things look bad I can pull out AND CONTINUE TO DO DAMAGE - pretty good damage in fact.


Please be so kind as to provide a link to this.

please, you are making yourself look very ignorant with these remarks. bottom line is any build is better off spending feats to melee than to range. this has got nothing to do with whether range is effective or not but rather how range is ineffective when compared to melee

a simple challenge to you, tank suulomades using ranged weapons

[Zaal]

please, you are making yourself look very ignorant with these remarks. bottom line is any build is better off spending feats to melee than to range. this has got nothing to do with whether range is effective or not but rather how range is ineffective when compared to melee

a simple challenge to you, tank suulomades using ranged weapons

Goodness, Rogues don't tank suulomades.

And no, my Rogue is NOT better off spending feats on melee. My WF BARB is better off spending feats that way - as is my Multi-class Rogue/Ranger/Monk.

[Angelus_dead]

the role that ranged combat should be performing is to be a viable choice for a combat character to use for most battles in a regular dungeon with a regular party. But what happens right now is that the guy walking around with a longbow or repeater is putting up a sign that he'll be only moderately more useful than being AFK.

I'll expand on that for the benefit of new players.

Suppose we have a normal party of 4 characters: Cleric, Wizard, Paladin, and Rogue. Then you join as a Ranger, with equal training and gear to fight with ranged or melee weapons. Your party is doing a level-appropriate quest like Shan-To-Kor, Tangleroot, Tear of Dhakan, or Cabal for One, and you come around a corner to see five enemy hobgoblins. Your party launches into a courageous attack.

What weapon style should your Ranger use to join in the combat?

The answer is that you should use melee, unless the 120 second Manyshot cooldown was finished. If you pull rapiers and run into battle you will greatly contribute to the team, but if you draw a bow and start shooting you won't. That is the truth, and that is why ranged combat in DDO can be labelled "broken".

[Zaal]

But since using Bane bolts on devil bosses is being nerfed next patch, it's not much worth talking about.

The nerf is that Transmuting no longer provides Good, so most of the repeaters that have previously been used to launch Bane bolts at devil bosses will no longer work. But there will still be the possibility to use a Transmuting of PG repeater, although that's a big step down from a Transmuting of Greater Lawful Bane.

Again, how are the bolts being nerfed? Transmuting is sure but seems you are reaching here. I've over and over stated that my repeaters carry the BANE , not the bolts that I use. So in mod 9, my attacks WILL still be transmuting. I don't however favor a purely transmuting repeater.

[Angelus_dead]

And no, my Rogue is NOT better off spending feats on melee.

You have an 8 strength, so you wouldn't get as much out of it as a regular character would. Starting ability scores cannot be respecced at this time, so it may feel like you're stuck with the choice to dump strength.

But it's still possible you'd make a bigger contribution with Weapon Finesse and TWF, especially considering the incoming buff to Crippling Strike.

[Aranticus]

Goodness, Rogues don't tank suulomades.

And no, my Rogue is NOT better off spending feats on melee. My WF BARB is better off spending feats that way - as is my Multi-class Rogue/Ranger/Monk.

there are rogues that have tanked suulomades. its hard but with the right gear a shield wand and buffs, it is possible to do it

AC 10(base)+12(34 dex)+8(AC bracers)+5(raiment w ritual)+5(prot)+3(chattering)+1(dodge)+4(insight)+ 4(shield)+5(barkskin)+5(pally)+4(IH)+2(recitation) +1(haste)+5(CE) = 74 = tanking material

will he be as effective as a ranger/mnk? no but when you have no alternatives, hes better than a no AC hp fighter.

your rogue must be a mechanic....

[Angelus_dead]

I've over and over stated that my repeaters carry the BANE , not the bolts that I use. So in mod 9, my attacks WILL still be transmuting. I don't however favor a purely transmuting repeater.

You made the claim that using special bolts allows you to get a very high damage per attack. But the only way changing bolts can be a serious improvement to DPS is if they've got Bane or Holy/Anarch on them. If you're using regular Silver bolts then they're not providing a real DPS advantage over what a melee guy could be doing with a weapon made out of Silver. If you get 100 damage with bolts, then a rapier would also get 100 damage.

It's true that low-level ranged characters can have an easier time getting a weapon to beat DR/Good+Cold Iron or DR/Good+Silver, but that convenience rapidly becomes obsolete once green weapons are involved.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The only reasons I can think of to use a normal crossbow is because you found a really, really nice one, or your char is not proficient with bows.

Some crit effects maybe, but even then I'm not sure it's better.

Uber ones are dirt cheap though.

Repeaters are different. High rate of fire.
But uber repeaters are very expensive

Great crossbow.
way underestimated IMO.
Especially with ones that do nice things on a crit.
Banishers, Smiter and Puncterers....work very, very well.

I've thought about making a Ranger who could also use (great)crossbows, effecticely and using which ever I can acquire that is best for a given situation.

It seems the forum experts so often forget that not everyone has the best weapons overflowing in their bank.

Some of us have to use what ever we can get.

(that's a very nice W/P repeater you have there...how many millions did you pay for it?
My W/P Great crossbow was given to me. )
And a banishing rapier may be way better than a banishing great crossbow, but few other weapons are as good IMO, and I got mine dirt cheap.

Yeah, I wish I had a Ferarri like yours, but I'll bet my '71 Nova can keep up on most of the streets.

[Aranticus]

Again, how are the bolts being nerfed? Transmuting is sure but seems you are reaching here. I've over and over stated that my repeaters carry the BANE , not the bolts that I use. So in mod 9, my attacks WILL still be transmuting. I don't however favor a purely transmuting repeater.

next mod transmuting no longer fully bypass alignment DRs. if you are using a transmuting of greater bane, you will need either holy bolts or some other good aligned bolts. a holy of gtr bane will still work with the appropiate bolts thou

[Aranticus]

The only reasons I can think of to use a normal crossbow is because you found a really, really nice one, or your char is not proficient with bows.

Some crit effects maybe, but even then I'm not sure it's better.

Uber ones are dirt cheap though.

Repeaters are different. High rate of fire.
But uber repeaters are very expensive

Great crossbow.
way underestimated IMO.
Especially with ones that do nice things on a crit.
Banishers, Smiter and Puncterers....work very, very well.

I've thought about making a Ranger who could also use (great)crossbows, effecticely and using which ever I can acquire that is best for a given situation.

It seems the forum experts so often forget that not everyone has the best weapons overflowing in their bank.

Some of us have to use what ever we can get.

(that's a very nice W/P repeater you have there...how many millions did you pay for it?
My W/P Great crossbow was given to me. )
And a banishing rapier may be way better than a banishing great crossbow, but few other weapons are as good IMO, and I got mine dirt cheap.

Yeah, I wish I had a Ferarri like yours, but I'll bet my '71 Nova can keep up on most of the streets.

i agree with the cost factor here. however with the intro of returning daggers and such, crossbows becomes less popular. another point to take note is that no one will build a toon around a crossbow no matter how uber it it ie w/p xbow. its more of a stop gap measure

[Shanar]

Of course, ranged is gimped! that's why every good build will be focused on melee or casting.

Now does that mean that you should never make a ranged char? No, if you're having fun with it, then good! Great xbows with the right effects on it and improved precise shot can be devastating, same with a longbow and manyshot. Repeaters can do some great steady DPS from far away. Now does this DPS compare to melee? Not at all. Are you contributing to the group? Well of course! Melee is always the better choice but ranged is still a viable choice.

I can see the flame war escalating any minute now. ;P

[Zaal]

By making an inaccurate claim that ranged combat is effective in DDO, you attempted to conceal the fact that it is brokenly weak. You created a false impression that ranged is a reasonably useful choice:

Still waiting for you to dispell that for me, Ranged Combat is ineffective. You've already said that per bolt/swing, I do more damage than a melee. I'll check on the attack rate since it seems right now I can get 3 bolts off in what seems like a second - of course still have to contend with cooldown/reload.

It wouldn't make sense for me to post a list of off-topic facts. The relative advantages of Rangers compared to Rogues is irrelevant to my point, which was to remind everyone that ranged combat in DDO is broken.

You are already off topic. The OP asked for an opinion with respect to Bows over Crossbows - which I tried to faithfully HRC's make an argument for - and you attacked it.

Lol, repair costs, lol. That's plat. Plat isn't a real cost... time spent searching around for bane ammo and grouping it into stacks- that is a cost.

All due respect, you seem to be ignoring me. I do NOT search for bolts, I buy them in House D and offset by the damage pure melee take going toe-to-toe, my cost in both time and resource is minimal. What? Where do I figure “time” into the mix since I must get to House D for my resources? Well, your unbound armor/weapons, if you so choose to truly mitigate permanent damage, must be address by EXPERT REPAIR and that forces you to travel to particular locations. Sure, Part 3 of shroud is a convenient repair location BUT, the cost is excessive and that doesn’t help you in other raids.

True, bound items are immune but it does take a while to get to that point. Then again, toe-to-toe can damage just about everything in your inventory. Heck, just recently in VOD one of my major mana pots was destroyed... such sorrow

That is false. Particularly at high levels, a ranged character is more dependant than a melee guy. That's because for high level progress and profit, you must win raids. For a melee guy to come into a raid means to contribute to the victory, but a ranged character is relying on the generosity of others to let him loot.

Again, if I'm doing around the same damage as a melee but don't need heals as often, how am I dependant? I think you continue to think of ranged from the perspective of ranging from long distance even though I again and again quote that I can range just as easily up close and personal – and still get my sneak attack damage.

And here are other benefits… I do NOT need a high STR to pull this off nor does my CON really need to be über. I can instead put more into DEX not only for AC and REFLEX but also for attack damage. Plus I have the benefit of being able to invest in INT, not only for the added skill points but also because I can take down all traps / open every chest on elite. And will all of the above, especially with respect to INT and my ability to max out skills, can max UMD for that obvious benefit.

The attack speed ratio is +40%. There's an additional percentage advantage from critical power, although that matters more to Rangers than to Rogues.

Thanks for the info - you've given me point of reference for which I'll work the numbers. I don't suppose you have a dev post on that? For example, the swing rate in mod 9 for FALCHIONS and GREAT AXES will be the same EVEN THOUGH the graphic shows that the GREAT AXE has more attacks.

I really have difficulty in your argument… (In your own words) per bolt, I do MORE damage than a rapier swing, I can pull out when needed AND STILL DO RESPECTABLE DAMAGE, am less a drain on cleric resources, can get every trap/door/chest in the game, can literally max out ever skill, per mod 9 have all of my HRC’s be transmuting.

And, I’m still on-topic with respect to making a case for crossbows over bows.

[Aranticus]

Of course, ranged is gimped! that's why every good build will be focused on melee or casting.

Now does that mean that you should never make a ranged char? No, if you're having fun with it, then good! Great xbows with the right effects on it and improved precise shot can be devastating, same with a longbow and manyshot. Repeaters can do some great steady DPS from far away. Now does this DPS compare to melee? Not at all. Are you contributing to the group? Well of course! Melee is always the better choice but ranged is still a viable choice.

I can see the flame war escalating any minute now. ;P

5/1 philosophy

[Aranticus]

I can instead put more into DEX not only for AC and REFLEX but also for attack damage

just this alone = FAIL

[Zaal]

A facet not discussed here is the utility, in shroud/vod for example, to switch ammo to suit the situation. In shroud / vod and with the right repeater, one can do in the neighborhood of 100 damage on every bolt , up close and personal and - still getting sneak damage.

You made the claim that using special bolts allows you to get a very high damage per attack. But the only way changing bolts can be a serious improvement to DPS is if they've got Bane or Holy/Anarch on them. If you're using regular Silver bolts then they're not providing a real DPS advantage over what a melee guy could be doing with a weapon made out of Silver. If you get 100 damage with bolts, then a rapier would also get 100 damage.

It's true that low-level ranged characters can have an easier time getting a weapon to beat DR/Good+Cold Iron or DR/Good+Silver, but that convenience rapidly becomes obsolete once green weapons are involved.

Per my original quote I dd NOT claim anything about "special" bolts. For what ever reason you keep referring to grinding for "special" bolts to which I repeatedly reply that the bolts I use are purchable from a vendor. True you need the favor but I think it's reasonable to assume by the time you reach VOD/SHROUD, you'll have the appropriate favor.

As you stated, I can switch to a bolt that effectily makes my HR transmuting - and that's big offsetting DR especially at higher difficult. And sure a melee can swing silver/transmuting but that is a big investment per Mineral II (it would take a fresh player how many shroud runs to build a Mineral II ??)- which many players seems now to avoid because of the nerf. But also, finding the right silver weapon per your build is also a challenge - I am having a bear of a time finding a two-hander for my WF BARB until such time I have the components to do MIN II. But for my primary Rogue, I just swap out my bolts... what could be easier?

[Zaal]

I can instead put more into DEX not only for AC and REFLEX but also for attack damage

just this alone = FAIL

You are suggesting that Finess builds are FAIL?

[Aranticus]

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You are suggesting that Finess builds are FAIL?

i'm saying tying dex to damage = fail. in case you have not noticed, your posts contain enough errors for anything that you say to be deemed nonsense

[Zaal]

there are rogues that have tanked suulomades. its hard but with the right gear a shield wand and buffs, it is possible to do it

your rogue must be a mechanic....

Propably true I give you that. But in every VOD I've run, it's been a WF TANK

By suggesting Rogues, are you reffering to pure Rogues? WF Rogues? I typically dont see pure WF Rogues "out there" and if you are suggesting "possible" for a non WF rogue, you are adding to the burden of the healers who have to deal with Suul's curse.

And please note that I am not targeting you for ignorance as you did to me.

[Zaal]

i'm saying tying dex to damage = fail. in case you have not noticed, your posts contain enough errors for anything that you say to be deemed nonsense

?? yours didn't ever render correctly??? !!!!

Again though Finesse builds depend on dex for damage... they are fail?