Crossbows - Any reason to use over bows?

[Zaal]

Wrong.

You can do better than that.

The initial question had been longbow vs crossbow. You decided to talk about repeaters, which was a different topic. Then you further decided to claim that ranged specialization can be a highly effective character choice, which is not just a different topic, but also misinformation.

Um a repeater is a crossbow.

The humor comes from watching someone claim that item damage is a downside to melee combat, because it demonstrates severely skewed priorities. (In addition, it is untrue that Jadine Forgemaiden prevents permanent damage).

You are taking me again out of context. You originally pitched that acquiring rare/special bolts involved expenditure (time/platt, etc.) and I countered that the cost for House D bolts is offset by the expenditure to repair damage incurred during melee and that if you were truly concerned about preserving your unbound gear, you'd seek expert repair. Although I don't recall explicitly saying otherwise, appreciate you clarifying that Expert Repair isn't 100%.

With that (not 100%) you strengthen my argument that , if you can do worthwhile damage while preserving your gear, you also see a cost (time/platt, etc.) benefit. Heck I know players who've bound their wOp rapiers to prevent perm damage... Such a shame too...

A repeater rogue cannot "hold his own" in combat.

I believe you've already proven that it can. You've already conceded that the damage is still pretty good and combined with the other benefits I purport - which you've not serious addressed – am firmly convinced that it is in fact a solid build concept.

Um, can you Assassinate with a ranged attack?

That's a serious question? Well since you're asking and I'm all too glad to instruct, no you cannot. I thought you did your homework here as you would have noted that, in earlier posts, I tout range attack as approprate and stealthy up close and personal Assassination as the situation dictates.

For such activities I turn to my Vorpal Sickle, or my Paralyzing Rapier, or perhaps my wOp rapier.

Or heck even Treason - as the devs have recently confirmed that, although it doesn't necessarily stack, you do get SUBTLE BACKSTABBING benefit while using it in addition to your SUBTLE BACKSTABBING enhancement. I suppose I should look that up again though as I recall that there an averaging formula in place and perhaps Treason brings the average down. Oh well, I don't use it that often anyway.

[Aranticus]

Gilgamesh (my WF Hvy Repeater toon) has...twice. Never lost agro either. In fact, after both times I did it, I got people sending me tells asking about it as well as questions in voice chat.

BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, he used a Lightning II Heavy Repeater with Silver Bolts.

yeap it can be done, but which is easier and less resource consuming?

[Arkat]

yeap it can be done, but which is easier and less resource consuming?

Well, I suppose if you were really concerned about the cost of a mere 1000 silver bolts, I imagine it would be better for a melee to do the tanking.

[Aranticus]

Well, I suppose if you were really concerned about the cost of a mere 1000 silver bolts, I imagine it would be better for a melee to do the taking.

heh. i know it can be done using ranged but the unreliability of range make vod tanking extremely delicate. the generation of damage is lower than that of melee and thus more build up time is need. should a trigger happy player starts attacking, agro will be lost quite easily. and when that happens it also means the party behind suulo gets smack. with melee that is less likely to happen. this is what i'm try to show here to Zaal but unfortunately he is stuck in his little cave even when presented with hard numbers

[Arkat]

Caves can be cozy! Why would he leave his?

[Zaal]

ranks 19
cartouche 3 (5 if you use titan glove)
GH 4
shroud skill 6
hogf 2
total 34 (36)

8 base cha with +2 tome + 6 cha item = 16 = +3. chip in a +2 skill boost (1 AP), total = 39 (41)

my fighter doesnt need the umd for self heal and such, but it helps when i need to top up my hp quick ie healing up with bees after doggies are charmed in hound, or for porting around or using shield wands. more importantly, none of the items in use are for critical items as i am using the same items to get my intimidate up to 60s

Um you were originally referring to your fighter... and he has 19 ranks of UMD? Not a pure fighter I gather.

Yeah your specs are right for my HRC Rogue and I still believe to be effective you really can't depend on buffs for UMD especially with Mordenkainen's Disjunction soon to be in the mix. To that extent, when you really need UMD, it'll be especially gimped if you rely on "magic" to make it go.

Not sure on this so please school me, but have you not also argued in other threads, having to switch out gear and also buff for a high UMD is impractical? Because it seems, if true, you are arguing the other way.

[Zaal]

And that is a completely senseless thing to believe, as it is totally detached from all apparent reality.

Not really. The flavor of your agrument seemed to change when I introduced ranging @ point blank AND that I was getting sneak damage.

No, they cannot. That's what it comes down to: You have made an incorrect observation about how powerful an attack style is.

Sorry to disappoint but I believe it's you who made that observation. My HRC Rogue does respectable damage and doesn't depend on others as much as a melee do to seem him though.

[Aranticus]

[COLOR=white]Um you were originally referring to your fighter... and he has 19 ranks of UMD? Not a pure fighter I gather.

Yeah your specs are right for my HRC Rogue and I still believe to be effective you really can't depend on buffs for UMD especially with Mordenkainen's Disjunction soon to be in the mix. To that extent, when you really need UMD, it'll be especially gimped if you rely on "magic" to make it go.

Not sure on this so please school me, but have you not also argued in other threads, having to switch out gear and also buff for a high UMD is impractical? Because it seems, if true, you are arguing the other way.

did you not see that my fighter has 30 umd? and not 39? sure you can figure it out right?

i have argued that switching out gear on a toon makes umd impractival but again did you not read that my umd gear are in non critical item slots? yes of course in next mod MD is gonna be the bad boy but that is in combat situations where i will mostly be meleeing and not trying to heal stuff. it doesnt mean umd is totally useless

btw i have pots if i need healing, titan cookies for shield, girds for GH, flesh render goggles for dw and a host of other equipment for my fighter. umd is a boost to my capabilities rather than a necessity

[Aranticus]

Sorry to disappoint but I believe it's you who made that observation. My HRC Rogue does respectable damage and doesn't depend on others as much as a melee do to seem him though.

so did the ranged rangers say when comparing to my melee ranger

[Zaal]

let me point out the things you said so far

1. dex does not affect the damage of a HRC. the only way for it to affect damage is when your dex bonus is so slow that you keep missing. all ranged weapons use imp crit: range not imp crit: pierce to expand the crit range

str bonus is only added to a bow's damage if you have the bow strength feat which currently ranger will have and in nex mod, fighters can train it

look at cforce's attack speed. a RC with all the feats will give 111 attack animations per min. gtwf gives 87 main hand attacks and 87 off hand. since a rogue's main dps option come from SA. thats 111 SA for RC vs 194 SA for gtwf. thats -3320 damage for a regular rogue with max rogue SA enhancement in 1 min

you dun need a particular class to tank suulomades, if you can deal damage, have intimidate and 70+ AC, you can do it. a good rogue fits as well. a good rogue is better off spending feats for melee. lets see, acrobat II = alacrity with staff, assassinate = assassinate with melee weapon, in next mod, vorpal with SA

as mentioned by A_D, rogues have enough skill points to max out all the important skills. anything more is useful for assassinate

as mentioned, you dun need a wf rogue or a splash rogue to tank suulomades

on khyber, AC tanking > wf tanking > hp tanking for vod. my rogue is not fully equipped to tank suulomades, once i get the raiments i will be able to do so

when my rogue was low level, repeaters is his choice of weapon due to the rapid rof and the ineffectiveness of twf. past L10, i respec him to twf to which he is even more effective

by your statements, it tells me that you do not understand the agro mechanics employed in ddo

Appreciate you rereading all of my posts - any press is better than no press
But not really sure why.. I think you are referring to agro mechanics but I don't think we really tounched on it too much beyond my mentioning a) that for a Rouge to be truly effective (sneak attack), he needs to be in a party of similarly built Rogues b) that my HRC Rogue has pulled agro away from the tanks c) if everyone built Rogues with uber sneak attack , the devs would find a way to counteract that.

Not mentioned previoulsy but I thought sneak attack is being mitigated in mod 9 to some extent - appreciate some schooling here plz.

Anyway, how do these comments detract from my understanding of agro mgmt? Where are you going here?

[Angelus_dead]

Um a repeater is a crossbow.

Not in the context of that discussion it isn't.

I countered that the cost for House D bolts is offset by the expenditure to repair damage incurred during melee

And that's senseless.

if you can do worthwhile damage

That's what it comes down to: Can you do worthwhile damage?
And it turns out the answer is: No, a repeater does not do enough damage to be really worthwhile.

I have already listed the damage defiencies of a repeater, and you haven't responded. Here they are again:
The repeater gains +2 base weapon damage, item availability, and long attack reach.
The repeater loses attack rate, strength bonus, Power Attack, critical threat, an item slot, AC, group cohesion, Crippling Strike, DT Destruction, and Assassinate.

Is long attack reach enough to make up for all those penalties to damage and debuffing? For someone who didn't know much about DDO it could be hard to tell. But if you understand movement speeds, attack rates, and hitpoint totals, it becomes clear that attack reach has only a little value.

I believe you've already proven that it can. You've already conceded that the damage is still pretty good

I have consistently said the opposite.

That's a serious question? Well since you're asking and I'm all too glad to instruct, no you cannot. I thought you did your homework here as you would have noted that, in earlier posts, I tout range attack as approprate and stealthy up close and personal Assassination as the situation dictates.

Obviously it's a rhetorical question, because for you to mention your repeater character possesses a melee-only ability undermines your claim as to the effectiveness of ranged combat.

Newsflash: Melee assassins can quickly add an Assassinate attempt whenever the occasion presents itself. They don't need to change weapons or position to do so.

For such activities I turn to my Vorpal Sickle, or my Paralyzing Rapier, or perhaps my wOp rapier.

That's not evidence in favor of repeaters...

[Zaal]

you are right that there can be ranged SA but melee = 100% SA but if your are ranging, there is a limited radius that the target has to be within in order for SA to apply. in shroud 5, this limitation is very evident as your SA radius < harry attack radius

Well, that's where I am unless it gets too nasty, then I pull out. Part 4 is a breeze, Part 5 is a tad nasty... Of course we're talking one quest. In VOD I'm jamming bolts up his... backside without any adverse effect - unless I take agro and then sit there getting pounded until the whimpy tank can get the agro back .

[Zaal]

Gilgamesh (my WF Hvy Repeater toon) has...twice. Never lost agro either. In fact, after both times I did it, I got people sending me tells asking about it as well as questions in voice chat.

BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, he used a Lightning II Heavy Repeater with Silver Bolts.

Thank you! I get so frustrated with the elitist attitude against AGAINST using HRC... +1 rep for you !!

[Aranticus]

Appreciate you rereading all of my posts - any press is better than no press
But not really sure why.. I think you are referring to agro mechanics but I don't think we really tounched on it too much beyond my mentioning a) that for a Rouge to be truly effective (sneak attack), he needs to be in a party of similarly built Rogues b) that my HRC Rogue has pulled agro away from the tanks c) if everyone built Rogues with uber sneak attack , the devs would find a way to counteract that.

Not mentioned previoulsy but I thought sneak attack is being mitigated in mod 9 to some extent - appreciate some schooling here plz.

Anyway, how do these comments detract from my understanding of agro mgmt? Where are you going here?

this is an area where your understanding of game mechanics is lacking

agro does not simply mean who is putting out more damage but rather who is putting out more damage over time, or the use of skills and enhancements. when the melee is tanking suulo, there are a few things he would have done

1. he might switch to SnB instead of thf or twf
2. he might switch to CE instead of PA
3. he might be using intimidate

SnB is an even worse dps rating that HRC, switching to CE means at least 5 damage lesser. this means the damage output of the tank falls to a great extent. and as a rogue with suulo's agro on the tank, you get plently of SA which will pull him away from the tank

with intimitanking, there is a very small gap between the intimidate expiring and hitting the next intiimidate. if you manage to get a good shot in during this window, you can easily snatch agro

last but not least is the agro establishment. the output of a rogue just based on SA is huge, if you manage to get in a few lucky crits with SA before the tank establishes firm agro, you can bet that you will tear suulo away

next is the rogue abilities. have you ever asked what the melee rogues are using? if these rogues know what they are doing, they would have APs invested in subtle backstacking as well as tharnes set which can reduce the hate by a huge %

SA has a huge disadvantage. test it in PvP and check out the stats of suulomades and arraetrikos and you would know why

[Creeper]

I really can't understand why people are disagreeing for five plus pages on this.

“Crossbows - Any reason to use over bows? “

Answer: Yes if you do not have bow strength, strength, or want a higher crit range.

That’s pretty much it. Everyone should agree with this.

AD is right about ranged being broken, as it should be, as far as damage output. Anyone who disagrees is ignoring basic arithmetic.

Ranged has very limited use in this game and this is evidenced by the fact that a completely ranged spec ranger will do more damage if she switches to dual wielding rapiers.

Ranged is very situational. If you build your character completely around ranged combat your usefulness is very situational. If you range only until the target comes within melee range then switch to melee that is just fantastic. If you only use ranged combat in all circumstances you are indeed ignorant.

There is nothing here that you can mathematically disagree with.
“I play a ranged ______ and she is just uber awesome!” is not a valid argument.
I agree that ranged can be fun to play but it is and forever will be inferior to melee in the vast majority of any situation.

A purely ranged character cannot contribute the same dps as a comparatively pure melee. If you disagree I encourage you to get your calculator.

[Aranticus]

Thank you! I get so frustrated with the elitist attitude against AGAINST using HRC... +1 rep for you !!

its not an elitist attitude but rather more of pro/con attitude

to use an analogy, cars

compare a toyota to a ferrari

passenger car: toyota represents effectiveness (this is where your arguments lie)

racing: ferrari wins (this is what i'm basing it on

can a repeater do damage? sure it can
does it do as much as gtwf rapiers? no

can a repeater have benefits? yes it can
are the benefits of huge importance? not when it comes to the most important aspect, cost effective completions

[Zaal]

I've tried that. My reaction was "Yuck, why did I waste time on this character?"

Then I said "ug" a lot:
Ug, no strength bonus.
Ug, no Power Attack.
Ug, slower attacks.
Ug, fewer crits.
Ug, less AC and even less dex.
Ug, the guys will hate me if I kite.
Ug, no Crippling Strike.
Ug, no Bp of Destruction.
Ug, now I have to remember to run to Deneith for bolts.

(I might have also complained about no Assassinate, but I don't consider that too important as a feature)

The conclusion was: "I could've been a useful character, but instead I'm a repeater rogue. WTB 7 dragonshards!"

Apologies your experience was bad.

Regardless, my experience however has been quite the opposite and I must say that have a number of diverse builds - including the kind you ultimately sponsor - provide for a more well rounded DDO experience.

No one knows for sure where this game is going but for example if the range is "fixed" per your recommendation, perhaps my HRC Rogue will absolute rock even harder than he already does - and I'll prob not have to do a darn thing beyond refusing to succumb to every negative comment I hear about how I did it "wrong" or "how I could have done it better" or "your gimped" or "whatever".

And with respect to Assassinate, are you kidding me? As it stand , with vorpal in hand, each attempt I make is currently x2 (if I find another, it'll be x3) and at Tier III, it jumps to 3 (4) !! With my bloodstone equipped and Assassin's focus, it'll make my attempts practically unstoppable!

And since mod 9 pushes us towards a more stealthy approach AND because of Mordenkainen's Disjunction, having a Rogue that can assassinate castors who use the spell is huge!

[Aranticus]

[COLOR=white]

Apologies your experience was bad.

Regardless, my experience however has been quite the opposite and I must say that have a number of diverse builds - including the kind you ultimately sponsor - provide for a more well rounded DDO experience.

No one knows for sure where this game is going but for example if the range is "fixed" per your recommendation, perhaps my HRC Rogue will absolute rock even harder than he already does - and I'll prob not have to do a darn thing beyond refusing to succumb to every negative comment I hear about how I did it "wrong" or "how I could have done it better" or "your gimped" or "whatever".

And with respect to Assassinate, are you kidding me? As it stand , with vorpal in hand, each attempt I make is currently x2 (if I find another, it'll be x3) and at Tier III, it jumps to 3 (4) !! With my bloodstone equipped and Assassin's focus, it'll make my attempts practically unstoppable!

And since mod 9 pushes us towards a more stealthy approach AND because of Mordenkainen's Disjunction, having a Rogue that can assassinate castors who use the spell is huge!

[Zaal]

its not an elitist attitude but rather more of pro/con attitude

to use an analogy, cars

compare a toyota to a ferrari

passenger car: toyota represents effectiveness (this is where your arguments lie)

racing: ferrari wins (this is what i'm basing it on

can a repeater do damage? sure it can
does it do as much as gtwf rapiers? no

can a repeater have benefits? yes it can
are the benefits of huge importance? not when it comes to the most important aspect, cost effective completions

Your analagy is way off. Perhaps better stated might be to say a Dodge Viper instead of a Ferrari but even then you are only seeing half the picture. For example, the Ferrari takes way longer to grind for and once you have it , upkeep is prohibitive.

Also, if you go the Viper route, you still have money left over for the extras.

And again the fact that I can take agro away from the tanks suggest that they DO NOT sport Ferrari's and the last thing I want to do as a Rogue is pull agro away from tanks for an extended period of time.

But again, my ROGUE/RANGER/MONK is that Ferrari you are referring to but it'll be some time before I can get him up to speed. Even at lvl 16, without the right gear, I've only made a down payment.

But there's no way you can convince me that without you walking my HRC path that you know it better. What I should have done is taken a more pro-active stance on the boards much earlier than now since the presumption of HRC Rogues are gimped.

It seems so many have heard that on the boards that it's become some sort of twisted truth - and I'm sick of hearing it.

[Zaal]

I really can't understand why people are disagreeing for five plus pages on this.

“Crossbows - Any reason to use over bows? “

Answer: Yes if you do not have bow strength, strength, or want a higher crit range.

That’s pretty much it. Everyone should agree with this.

AD is right about ranged being broken, as it should be, as far as damage output. Anyone who disagrees is ignoring basic arithmetic.

Ranged has very limited use in this game and this is evidenced by the fact that a completely ranged spec ranger will do more damage if she switches to dual wielding rapiers.

Ranged is very situational. If you build your character completely around ranged combat your usefulness is very situational. If you range only until the target comes within melee range then switch to melee that is just fantastic. If you only use ranged combat in all circumstances you are indeed ignorant.

There is nothing here that you can mathematically disagree with.
“I play a ranged ______ and she is just uber awesome!” is not a valid argument.
I agree that ranged can be fun to play but it is and forever will be inferior to melee in the vast majority of any situation.

A purely ranged character cannot contribute the same dps as a comparatively pure melee. If you disagree I encourage you to get your calculator.

No disrespect but you are talking from a "Ranged Ranger" aspect and I'm not pushing that line.